[KSP 1.8 - 1.12+] - Probes Before Crew [PBC] Version 2.93

[_Zee]

Version 1.5 released
 

//// Version 1.5 Changes

*Added StationPartsExpansionRedux Support
*Telemetry Report experiment is now present on all Probes.
First pass on all vanilla structural parts, and a few misc parts.
Corrected placement of MH 1.8m HS.
Corrected placement of vanilla 2.5m Hitchhiker module.
Shifted placement of vanilla 2.5m Docking Port one node earlier.

Presenting 1.5!
3 experiments come with SPER, and have been modified to fit the theme of this mod. Visual Observations can be done by any Kerbal in any Cupola, while Surface landed, low orbit, and high orbit. Plant Growth and Fish Study experiments can only be done by Scientist Kerbals, and again are surface, low and high orbit. In all cases the experiment is global (not biome dependent), so as to prevent too many extra science points while still allowing room for the increase in reward since all of these should now carry the "Kerbal Required" reward premium. Finally, because these parts are the "laboratories" themselves, and because you are now required to use a Scientist to conduct the experiments, the results can be transmitted for 100% science.
If SPER is present, the vanilla cupola loses its ability to perform crew reports and instead gains the visual observation experiment for consistency.

The Telemetry Report experiment is now present on all Probes. This experiment can be conducted in all possible situations;  biomes are only relevant when surface landed. The science income is a token amount and won't be worth very much until you start entering valuable SOI's. The results flavor-text is admittedly pretty bare, I'm not the best writer so if anyone wants to help me out with flavor-texts for all the different potential situations that would be awesome.

It occurred to me I should be including the new charts with each release post too, so here is the chart with SPER. These will always be available in the OP.

With this update, the vanilla tree is pretty much 100% reviewed. There might be a few odds and ends left, but I'm really happy with its current state. Thank you to everyone who has been providing feedback!  The more the better, keep it coming.

Updating to 1.5 is savegame compatible, just remove or overwrite the old ProbesBeforeCrew folder in your GameData folder.

Edited January 6, 2019 by _Zee

[GerAseR]

3 minutes ago, _Zee said:

 

Just out of curiosity, what are your Science sliders set to?

Normal, i dont touch them. Forget about that, it was just a "if you would switch Goo with Barometer" thing. It works perfect like it is, i try to get the "Unmanned Contracts" Pack to work, not sure when these Contracts should appear or i did something wrong

[_Zee]

1 hour ago, GerAseR said:

Normal, i dont touch them. Forget about that, it was just a "if you would switch Goo with Barometer" thing. It works perfect like it is, i try to get the "Unmanned Contracts" Pack to work, not sure when these Contracts should appear or i did something wrong

Ah okay good. If too many people find the start too difficult I might consider moving the barometer into the start node along with the thermometer and goo, waiting for more feedback on that.

I know other users have said the SETI unmanned contracts work with my mod well enough, but I havn't tested any of it myself so I can't offer support on that. I'll probably end up releasing my own contract pack eventually, but more mod support is a higher priority for now.

[GerAseR]

48 minutes ago, _Zee said:

Ah okay good. If too many people find the start too difficult I might consider moving the barometer into the start node along with the thermometer and goo, waiting for more feedback on that.

I know other users have said the SETI unmanned contracts work with my mod well enough, but I havn't tested any of it myself so I can't offer support on that. I'll probably end up releasing my own contract pack eventually, but more mod support is a higher priority for now.

No, its not difficult! The Point with the Goo Container is:
If i cant recover the Container, cause of a missing chute, its just kinda throwing money to send the data and destroy him with the probe for no reason.
I would prefer to switch the Goo in Tier 3 and the Barometer to Start and add a Probe Report. 
Its just the need to escape that "hurt my feelings" and a Barometer looks cheaper to destroy as a Goo (even if its not, but i can send data with 100%)
A contract or a chute would fix that, but the contract package was not useful in that case (first contract was orbit around Kerbin  )
Maybe integrate a Contract Package or rearrange it? First Contract: Destroy a Probe, Need: 1000-10000 meters 
The one i looked into was from @linuxgurugamer

My Workaround for the chute is: RT-5 -> Fuel on 14.0 (10%) and Boost on 4, so it would lift off a bit at the end of the burn and landing save for a normal recover instead of escaping.
Everything is fine for me, again: Thanks for your time and thoughts you put in here and there to create PBC, just go on as you want to

Edited January 5, 2019 by GerAseR

[Jesse-Lacey]

9 hours ago, _Zee said:

 

Just out of curiosity, what are your Science sliders set to?

Mine are set pretty low, around 50% just because if they're at 100% the game just goes way too fast when you have mods that add experiments. I just mean compared to regular CTT it's taking me a little while to get to some of the stuff I like. Not a bad thing, just having to launch different missions. I have parachutes now which is a biggie.

[Ger_space]

14 minutes ago, Jesse-Lacey said:

Mine are set pretty low, around 50% just because if they're at 100% the game just goes way too fast when you have mods that add experiments. I just mean compared to regular CTT it's taking me a little while to get to some of the stuff I like. Not a bad thing, just having to launch different missions. I have parachutes now which is a biggie.

Maybe you should read the warning text in the first post, before you use a mod. ( And complain then about balancing, if you don't follow it) 

I started a new career and it's pretty much the way I like it. Not too slow or too fast. 

[_Zee]

30 minutes ago, Jesse-Lacey said:

Mine are set pretty low, around 50% just because if they're at 100% the game just goes way too fast when you have mods that add experiments. I just mean compared to regular CTT it's taking me a little while to get to some of the stuff I like. Not a bad thing, just having to launch different missions. I have parachutes now which is a biggie.

Right on! I mean at the end of the day its your game and you're free to play it exactly how you like! But just as a reminder (and this is mentioned in the OP), I've reduced Science income significantly in both vanilla and in supported mods to solve the exact problem you're describing. Because I enjoy using all the Science mods too! And I was tired of blitzing through the tree, so just be aware that if you keep it at 50% you may or may not end up getting stuck. 

If you do keep it at 50% I'll be really curious to know how it turns out for you, keep me posted. 

[Jesse-Lacey]

37 minutes ago, Ger_space said:

Maybe you should read the warning text in the first post, before you use a mod. ( And complain then about balancing, if you don't follow it) 

I started a new career and it's pretty much the way I like it. Not too slow or too fast. 

My post was not a complaint, maybe you shouldn't jump to assumptions about people.

 

17 minutes ago, _Zee said:

Right on! I mean at the end of the day its your game and you're free to play it exactly how you like! But just as a reminder (and this is mentioned in the OP), I've reduced Science income significantly in both vanilla and in supported mods to solve the exact problem you're describing. Because I enjoy using all the Science mods too! And I was tired of blitzing through the tree, so just be aware that if you keep it at 50% you may or may not end up getting stuck. 

If you do keep it at 50% I'll be really curious to know how it turns out for you, keep me posted. 

It seems to be balancing out now, the parachutes helped a lot with gathering non transmittable science, plus I got a couple of experiments that are pretty nice. At some point I may have to grind for a little bit but even now I probably have the parts in theory to collect a lot of science. If I do an unmodded play though I'll be sure not to lower that. The telemetry report is a nice touch as well, keep up the good work.

[flart]

because you modified science experiments, you can add ScienceSituationInfo as recommended mod, 

and there is a large boom to the requested mods list, aka mods supported by CPT:

On 4/22/2018 at 11:19 PM, flart said:

• Station Parts Expansion Redux
• Kerbal Atomic, Heat Control, Cryo Engine, Cryo Tanks
• Near Future, SpaceY, Fuel Tank Plus
• Planetary Base Inc
• TAC LS
• Airplane Plus, Mk2 Expansion, KAX/L, 
• OpenCockpit, Kerbonov Kn-2, Mk1PrototypeCockpit
• DecouplerShroud, MSP3000
• Surface Experiment Pack
• Tarsier Space Technology
• KIS, KAS, KER,
• DMagicOrbitalScience
• BetterSRBs
• MissingHistory
• JX2Antenna
• CommNet Antennas Expansion
• Kerbal Foundries
• kOS
• FASA LaunchClampsContinued

 

 

[GerAseR]

I use a few other Science Mods and it works great for me with sliders on normal. I also use the Science Alert mod.
I just wanted to add that extra bit of gameplay depth to start with probes (looking forward how that will turn out in the end with the Unmanned Contracts Pack i mentioned before).

And thats all im looking for when using mods: that bit of depth to complete my KSP (or gaming experience). In the end it all depends on other mods and the contracts (decline contracts malus set to 0)

@_Zee downloading the 1.5 right now. SPER comes with "Plant and Fish" experiments or have to download something else? Willing to give it a try, not sure if its playable on my laptop cause of the IVA/RAM usage

[_Zee]

1 minute ago, GerAseR said:

/snip
@_Zee downloading the 1.5 right now. SPER comes with "Plant and Fish" experiments or have to download something else? Willing to give it a try, not sure if its playable on my laptop cause of the IVA/RAM usage

Yes, SpacePartsExpansionRedux comes with those experiments by default, my mod just tweaks their values and situation masks. I remember reading on the SPER page somewhere that the IVA's can be removed if they tax your system too much. Its a fantastic addition to the game, I highly recommend it. Some of the most beautiful models and animations I've ever seen in KSP.

[GerAseR]

I looked at SPER, thats why i asked. Will give it a try... damn... another mod 
Thank you again

[_Zee]

Version 1.6 released
 

//// Version 1.6 Changes

*Added Missing History Support
First pass on vanilla and MH fuel tanks.
First pass on vanilla and MH engines.
Shifted Mk2 lander one node later.
Shifted Mk1-3 CM one node earlier.
Shifted Mk2 CM one node earlier.
Shifted 1.2m Reaction Wheel one node earlier.
Shifted 1.2m Nose cones one node earlier.
Shifted Z1k battery one node earlier.
Corrected Entry and VAB costs for a few SPER parts.

While I was working on the patch for Missing History, it became obvious that the approach for CM's needed to be re-evaluated. In particular, the 2.5m CM was showing up too late relative to the other 2.5m parts when MH was detected.
Instead of maintaining different layouts for CMs depending on whether or not you have the Making History Expansion, I found a way to use a single layout that will make sense regardless if you have the xpac or not.
In addition, a few other vanilla and MH parts were slightly shifted to make the 1.2 > 1.8 > 2.5 progression more consistent, including a first pass on all fuel tanks and engines.

This is by far the most balanced and consistent iteration of this mod yet. Everything from here should just be icing on the cake! 
Here is the Missing History overview.

Savegame compatible, delete the old ProbesBeforeCrew folder and throw in the new one.

Stay tuned for the RemoteTech patch next.

[Pand5461]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:28 PM, _Zee said:

Basic SAS is a possibility, but probably no more than that. I'd like pilots to stay relevant. I'll keep this in mind as my updates get closer to the back-end of the tech tree. Thanks for suggesting it!

Why I'd like to see probe functions on capsules is to do unmanned tests, e.g. for reentry, and to have kOS controls without the need of a probe core (I know for sure that kOS does not have control over vessels without SPU when RemoteTech is installed, and manned capsules don't have that; but with stock CommNet - I don't remember).

I myself was thinking of making configs for "boilerplate" capsules - i.e. basically capsule-shaped probe cores, for the very purpose of unmanned rehearsals of missions. But laziness took over

[jpkerman]

2 hours ago, Pand5461 said:

I myself was thinking of making configs for "boilerplate" capsules - i.e. basically capsule-shaped probe cores, for the very purpose of unmanned rehearsals of missions.

I always thought that would be a good use for the original KSP CM.  There are several mods that re-introduce that pod so it is possible to have it in a 1.6 game with no new modeling needed.

[_Zee]

Version 1.7 released

//// Version 1.7 Changes

*Added RemoteTech Support

All antenna range changes will defer to RemoteTech's settings when it is detected (with only one small exception, the HG-55 and RA-15 ranges and cone angles were swapped to keep the progression sensible without having to make mod-conditional node movement. I only mention this for transparency, you won't even notice the difference in-game). All that really needed to be reviewed were costs and position on the techtree, and it all clicks together really well now.

Core Chart with RemoteTech Added.

The Official PBC Contracts Pack is already underway. I'm learning how to use the contract configurator for the first time but its an awesome little tool. Once its all finished the contracts should be taken automatically as soon as you meet the conditions necessary to make them available, all without using up your limited contract slots. This will be really convenient once it starts branching out to multiple "world-first" contract paths that will unlock as you progress through each set of achievements.
Everything that can be available to you, will be available and automatically added to your active contracts list, even during the middle of flight.
This is great for 2 reasons, 1) it means its impossible to accidentally miss out on a contract by performing the action before taking the contract, and 2) it leaves you to complete them at whatever pace you want; one at a time, or multiple simultaneous missions, the choice will be yours! 

Savegame compatible, delete the old ProbesBeforeCrew and replace.

Edited August 10, 2021 by _Zee

[Cruesoe]

I'd like to ask you to look at Kerbalism as well please, not many parts to add!

[politas]

On 1/2/2019 at 10:55 AM, _Zee said:

I've never used the CKAN, I will look into it for the next release.
 

Pull request to add your mod to CKAN: https://github.com/KSP-CKAN/NetKAN/pull/6931 I'm a bit rusty at metadata, so I'll let one of the other maintainers look it over.

[Shizen]

Seeing as how you mod kinda focuses on early tech tree stuff and the way one starts out in the great beyond. 

I assume mods that add to the later stages of the tech tree, either need no adjustment and or should integrate seemlessly.

For e.g. USI/UKS/MKS , Near Future Suite and KSPI.

Am i wrong on this assumption or should i wait until @_Zee updates compatibility later??

 

[_Zee]

10 hours ago, politas said:

Pull request to add your mod to CKAN: https://github.com/KSP-CKAN/NetKAN/pull/6931 I'm a bit rusty at metadata, so I'll let one of the other maintainers look it over.

THANK YOU. I swear I really tried to figure it out. Haha, I even popped into the IRC channel but no one replied. 
Edit: Derp, just saw the whole reason you did this was because of my IRC message. Thanks again!

 

8 hours ago, Shizen said:

/snip

I assume mods that add to the later stages of the tech tree, either need no adjustment and or should integrate seemlessly.

I should start by saying my mod shuffles things over the entire tree, not just the beginning. Its a complete overhaul.
But this is kinda sorta probably maybe true??  I'm still going to go over those late-stage mods the same way I do all of them and things will undoubtedly get shuffled so I don't think it will be seamless, SCANsat was a really rare case of not needing to move anything. BUT if you decided to use them now instead of waiting it probably wouldn't be too bad. If most of the parts in question are placed somewhere in the T8 to T13 range, then its probably fine. But do so at your own risk. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by _Zee

[GerAseR]

USI Support would be great, i use LifeSupport, Kolonization and Karbonite
Looking forward for you contract package, the one i used for Probes and Rovers doesn´t fit in PBC
Maybe you change your version typo, if you go for it like it is we will be around PBC 40.9 in June (added mod maybe 1.7.1, 1.7.2, .... and the contract pack would be a move to 2.0... dont know, just thinking about the high numbers)
The missing history update was a game breaker or "challenge" for me, a few rockets i cant use now because of the parts moving (not so bad) and active contracts i dont know yet how to reach the goals to complete, not sure if it was PBC or missing hiytory itself who did that useless moving (hadn´t installed it before)
 

Edited January 8, 2019 by GerAseR

[Pand5461]

@_Zee I have a request regarding kOS support. Can you put at least one of the machines into the starting node? It does not feel right to drive "probe-controlled" rockets by hand.

[Pie82]

First off - thanks for working on this mod. I enjoyed the UBM tech tree and contracts in a previous play thru so am pleased you have picked it up now the author has left. 

I did notice one thing in the early to mid game - relays. Would you consider moving the first relay dish to the 160 rather than 300 science points tier? My Mun rover contract was on the far side in my current play-thru meaning I'd sent a hopper, a rover and Jeb to Minmus before I sent an unmanned rover to the Mun. I just think it would help progression and balance a bit.

[lordcirth]

4 hours ago, Pand5461 said:

@_Zee I have a request regarding kOS support. Can you put at least one of the machines into the starting node? It does not feel right to drive "probe-controlled" rockets by hand.

For what it's worth, I've used KER and kOS partless for ages, just to keep craft files compatible.  kOS for All does this, and KER has a setting.

[_Zee]

6 hours ago, Pand5461 said:

@_Zee I have a request regarding kOS support. Can you put at least one of the machines into the starting node? It does not feel right to drive "probe-controlled" rockets by hand.

I don't actually use kOS myself, so the parts were placed based on where the original had them generally grouped on the tree (they actually show up a little earlier on my tree). Personally I have no problem moving the 0.6m kOS parts to the start node if all the kOS users think thats where it should be. It was my understanding that it functions similar to the RemoteTech Flight Computer, which is why it seemed appropriate to first introduce it at T4. Anyone else who uses kOS please feel free to chime in on this. 
 

4 hours ago, Pie82 said:

/snip
Would you consider moving the first relay dish to the 160 rather than 300 science points tier?

The HG-5 antenna is the first relay and it appears at T4 in the Basic Science node (45 science points). If you aren't seeing it there then one of your mods might be conflicting with mine. Let me know if you see it there.

Edited January 9, 2019 by _Zee