Air Superiority Fighter Competition Unlimited [ON HOLD]

[sturmhauke]

12 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Yeah, Youtube just goofed up the uploads for some strange reason. Guess I gotta reupload some now. Or at least find out which ones have wrong titles, because all of the videos are fine.

I wonder if it's a problem on the YouTube backend. Someone else posted a video and it was messed up in a similar way.

[Box of Stardust]

2 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

I wonder if it's a problem on the YouTube backend. Someone else posted a video and it was messed up in a similar way.

It happens occasionally; sometimes videos don't process right away, then things get messed up when you try to upload more things, which ends up taking the link of a previous video, but the title of a new one.

[panzerknoef]

The UT-7 just kinda... Wants to be a submarine sometimes. It already has an increased minimum altitude compared to the first iterations (which y'all never saw). It's usually fine, but sometimes it just rockets off in a straight line to its own death, can't exactly say why, but I'm guessing that minimum altitude needs to be higher still... 

[Jeb-head-mug kerman]

Hmmm... Since everyone's planes are so good now, I've gone back to the drawing board and built a new drone. http://

http://

http://

Here's the new plane, 'Bird of Prey':https://kerbalx.com/JebHeadMugKerman/Sx-F-62-Bird-of-Prey

[Joseph Kerman]

A new Drone Fighter: https://kerbalx.com/The_Kerbal_Way/D-5-Excalibur

Highly advanced in design. Good luck disabling it! 
 

[Box of Stardust]

Battle:

Spoiler

@sturmhauke's DF-2 Yari now goes up against the top, facing its first Gauntlet challenge, @Box of Stardust's PEGASys-D7.

Note: The PEGASys-D7's Pilot AI received a single update, changing its Steer Ki, before this battle, so that it functions as intended. But that shouldn't mean much, since testing was done against tougher craft anyways.

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Aircraft Statistical Comparison:

Aircraft	Mnv.	Propls.	End.	Size	Damage Mtgtn.	Offnsv. Capblts.	Flt. Ctrl.
DF-2 Yari	9.5	6	7	6.5	11	10	8.5
PEGASys-D7	9.5	8	8	7	10	9.5	9

Analysis:

Well... apparently no, testing against other potentially better aircraft doesn't mean anything. And I did the whole setup process to make sure nothing went weird in BDA for this battle: deleted the ModuleManager cache and restarted the game. So what happened?

The DF-2 Yari is a plane that gets stronger the longer a sortie goes on.

The PEGASys-D7 is a plane that strikes quickly and aggressively, ending the encounter as quickly as it can, or at least, damaging the enemy aircraft to the point where the enemy is weaker than they might have been had they survived the early stages of the battle.

Basically, the Yari attacks once the enemy has exhausted their initiative and momentum.

Well, it turns out, with properly functioning aim on the guns, the D7 can execute its "strike first" strategy quite well. It seems to me that most aircraft would survive the encounter with the D7 simply because the guns would just never hit their target, because of one AI setting. The D7 could be positioned perfectly behind a plane, 300m away, and it would shoot 2m above the enemy aircraft.

Not anymore. When guns are pointed, guns will likely hit. Nothing was changed in the actual flight control parts of the AI or the plane, just the one setting; the D7 flew otherwise exactly how it always did.

The D7s had the speed and agility to control this battle, and remaining in relatively close quarters meant the DF-2s were not on their missiles very much. The DF-2, while agile, was not enough so to shake off the D7s when guns were on. However, it did manage to evade gun fire decently when on guns defense, and its tough structure led to the D7s often running out of gun ammo.

However, with the D7s not being hit very often, they often kept their payload of a (now) meager 8 missiles- which was barely enough to last a match if it went long, but still seemed to do the job. When they did get hit, many hits were not lethal thanks to its damage mitigation qualities (which it seems to have passed on to the Du-13/15...), unless in extremely close quarters where a good burst could down them.

The DF-2 ends its run without being able to pass through the Gauntlet, but it does sit at a comfortable #1 spot right now. And it still has potential, I think, but what comes next is a decision to be made.

 

So, with that battle done, how about a bonus battle?

Spoiler

@Box of Stardust's slightly improved but otherwise the same PEGASys-D7 takes another shot at @dundun93's HSC. Again.

 

 

 

Analysis:

Spoiler

Statistical Comparison:

Aircraft	Mnv.	Propls.	End.	Size	Damage Mtgtn.	Offnsv. Capblts.	Flt. Ctrl.
PEGASys-D7	9.5	8	8	7	10	9.5	9
HSC	10	5	10	8	9.5	9.5	8.5

Analysis:

I didn't record official scores since this was just a bonus thing. And I think the results are... pretty fair.

HSC won one, then a tie, then the PEGASys-D7 won one.

Honestly, I'm not really sure if the guns did much this time around, but the D7s were getting some hits in, which may have helped. The HSC, while it has good damage mitigation, also has quite a lot of exposed critical parts, so gunfire always has a chance of being somewhat effective.

And the HSC is still this strange, slippery target in terms of how it flies. It just... slides around the battlefield.

Meanwhile, the D7 still has some fundamental flaws in its Pilot AI programming and flight characteristics, which opens up opportunities for the HSC to attack- opportunities which are generally taken to good effect.

The Gauntlet is staying as-is, but honestly, I think both of these aircraft are pretty equal in lethality- they just have vastly different styles. And that's the interesting part of the current Gauntlet- you have to fight two different styles of combat to pass.

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Battle:

  Reveal hidden contents

@sturmhauke's DF-2 Yari now goes up against the top, facing its first Gauntlet challenge, @Box of Stardust's PEGASys-D7.

Note: The PEGASys-D7's Pilot AI received a single update, changing its Steer Ki, before this battle, so that it functions as intended. But that shouldn't mean much, since testing was done against tougher craft anyways.

 

After Action Report:

  Reveal hidden contents

Battle Report:

Aircraft Statistical Comparison:

Aircraft	Mnv.	Propls.	End.	Size	Damage Mtgtn.	Offnsv. Capblts.	Flt. Ctrl.
DF-2 Yari	9.5	6	7	6.5	11	10	8.5
PEGASys-D7	9.5	8	8	7	10	9.5	9

Analysis:

Well... apparently no, testing against other potentially better aircraft doesn't mean anything. And I did the whole setup process to make sure nothing went weird in BDA for this battle: deleted the ModuleManager cache and restarted the game. So what happened?

The DF-2 Yari is a plane that gets stronger the longer a sortie goes on.

The PEGASys-D7 is a plane that strikes quickly and aggressively, ending the encounter as quickly as it can, or at least, damaging the enemy aircraft to the point where the enemy is weaker than they might have been had they survived the early stages of the battle.

Basically, the Yari attacks once the enemy has exhausted their initiative and momentum.

Well, it turns out, with properly functioning aim on the guns, the D7 can execute its "strike first" strategy quite well. It seems to me that most aircraft would survive the encounter with the D7 simply because the guns would just never hit their target, because of one AI setting. The D7 could be positioned perfectly behind a plane, 300m away, and it would shoot 2m above the enemy aircraft.

Not anymore. When guns are pointed, guns will likely hit. Nothing was changed in the actual flight control parts of the AI or the plane, just the one setting; the D7 flew otherwise exactly how it always did.

The D7s had the speed and agility to control this battle, and remaining in relatively close quarters meant the DF-2s were not on their missiles very much. The DF-2, while agile, was not enough so to shake off the D7s when guns were on. However, it did manage to evade gun fire decently when on guns defense, and its tough structure led to the D7s often running out of gun ammo.

However, with the D7s not being hit very often, they often kept their payload of a (now) meager 8 missiles- which was barely enough to last a match if it went long, but still seemed to do the job. When they did get hit, many hits were not lethal thanks to its damage mitigation qualities (which it seems to have passed on to the Du-13/15...), unless in extremely close quarters where a good burst could down them.

The DF-2 ends its run without being able to pass through the Gauntlet, but it does sit at a comfortable #1 spot right now. And it still has potential, I think, but what comes next is a decision to be made.

 

So, with that battle done, how about a bonus battle?

  Hide contents

@Box of Stardust's slightly improved but otherwise the same PEGASys-D7 takes another shot at @dundun93's HSC. Again.

 

 

 

Analysis:

  Hide contents

Statistical Comparison:

Aircraft	Mnv.	Propls.	End.	Size	Damage Mtgtn.	Offnsv. Capblts.	Flt. Ctrl.
PEGASys-D7	9.5	8	8	7	10	9.5	9
HSC	10	5	10	8	9.5	9.5	8.5

Analysis:

I didn't record official scores since this was just a bonus thing. And I think the results are... pretty fair.

HSC won one, then a tie, then the PEGASys-D7 won one.

Honestly, I'm not really sure if the guns did much this time around, but the D7s were getting some hits in, which may have helped. The HSC, while it has good damage mitigation, also has quite a lot of exposed critical parts, so gunfire always has a chance of being somewhat effective.

And the HSC is still this strange, slippery target in terms of how it flies. It just... slides around the battlefield.

Meanwhile, the D7 still has some fundamental flaws in its Pilot AI programming and flight characteristics, which opens up opportunities for the HSC to attack- opportunities which are generally taken to good effect.

The Gauntlet is staying as-is, but honestly, I think both of these aircraft are pretty equal in lethality- they just have vastly different styles. And that's the interesting part of the current Gauntlet- you have to fight two different styles of combat to pass.

 

WOWOWOW

[sturmhauke]

Spoiler

Well I'm happy to have gotten this far, which was more than I was expecting. I wonder though if we should allow people to adjust their steer ki settings? It is still technically a flight AI setting, just one that affects fine control. It won't help a crappy dogfighter, but it might push a drone over the edge from ok to good. Not sure if it would help this particular battle though, since the D7 still has the maneuverability edge.

 

[Box of Stardust]

16 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Well I'm happy to have gotten this far, which was more than I was expecting. I wonder though if we should allow people to adjust their steer ki settings? It is still technically a flight AI setting, just one that affects fine control. It won't help a crappy dogfighter, but it might push a drone over the edge from ok to good. Not sure if it would help this particular battle though, since the D7 still has the maneuverability edge.

 

Well my logic goes like this:

Steer Ki (seems to) really only affect the fine adjustment of where the plane is pointed once it's there; the hard part about AI tuning is getting the plane pointed in a specific direction in the first place. Really, you expect the AI to work as it should once you got the hard part out of the way; program the plane to steer well, and you expect that guns will work once it's properly pointed in the right direction.

In previous cases, the D7 would already be pointed at the target, indeed, in a perfect tail chase, but it would always bizarrely shoot above the target. That's not expected AI behavior, since it's clearly already pointed in the right direction and can chase a target accurately.

This minor edit was a change for 'functioning as expected', not really 'perform better'. It in no way changes the tactics of the aircraft or the maneuverability or stability.

[Guest]

https://kerbalx.com/dundun92/Du-16A-Blk-10

Not a Du-15 replacement btw.

[Xd the great]

https://kerbalx.com/Xdthegreat/Interceptor

Let's hope this plane is not a flying brick.

[panzerknoef]

new battle!

@dundun92's Du-15-20 fights its first round against @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter Hunter V2

battles:

Spoiler

 

 

analysis: 

Spoiler

The X-fighter Hunter V2 must be the aircraft with the shortest stay on the tier 1 leaderboard thus far. It was knocked out in just 2 rounds against the new Du-15-20. The X-fighter really just couldn't keep up with the Du when it came to armament. One of the strengths of the original version was its large amount of weaponry, but this version in this meta just seems to be underarmed. The Du-15 has good damage mitigation so the few hits the X-fighter could get in simply weren't enough to take it down. Most of the damage to Du's was actually by friendly fire, thankfully without any consequences though. Whilst X-fighters could actually manage to stay behind the Du's for some time, they simply weren't accurate enough with their guns to be a threat, usually they eventually had to give up chase anyway when a Du fired a salvo of missiles at them. The Du on the other hand did perform adequately, but I do seem to one issue with it. It can't seem to control it's own roll properly, this leads to it spinning around uselessly which often makes for missed opportunities. It didn't get punished here that badly, but I do somewhat expect it to become an issue later on.

For now though, the Du-15 enters the board and will soon face its brother, the Du-11   

 

[Box of Stardust]

8 hours ago, panzerknoef said:

It can't seem to control it's own roll properly, this leads to it spinning around uselessly which often makes for missed opportunities. It didn't get punished here that badly, but I do somewhat expect it to become an issue later on.

And that's why I gave it the Flight Control rating it has. 

Plane is over-tuned. 

At the same time, the overtuning does make it nasty in close quarters, since the AI is always willing to use the Du-15's maximum roll rate, which has the effect of both possibly throwing off chasing attackers, and also making it difficult to throw off when it's the one chasing; it usually has to make the mistake to get thrown off.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

And that's why I gave it the Flight Control rating it has. 

Plane is over-tuned. 

At the same time, the overtuning does make it nasty in close quarters, since the AI is always willing to use the Du-15's maximum roll rate, which has the effect of both possibly throwing off chasing attackers, and also making it difficult to throw off when it's the one chasing; it usually has to make the mistake to get thrown off.

I actually had that same problem with the Du-16, except way worse (it would often plough into the ground rolling wildly); the only solution was to disable roll control on the Big-S control surfaces and the canards.

[Box of Stardust]

47 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

I actually had that same problem with the Du-16, except way worse (it would often plough into the ground rolling wildly); the only solution was to disable roll control on the Big-S control surfaces and the canards.

You're encountering problems I already faced when tuning the PEGASys-D, since you're basically tuning the same thing. 

Of course, I had my own solution to the problem, which is currently on the D7. I tried something different on the D8, with mixed results. The D10 may or may not be done differently, depending on how that tuning process goes. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Box of Stardust

[Joseph Kerman]

waits patiently for the D-5 to be free from the waiting list

[ZLM-Master]

Yopyop !

I got a tiny surprise for you ! Looking weak but good flight ability .

I also add a bit more AIM-9 . & yep that's true , V2 is a downgrade of the original Hunter .

( Why i do that ???? ) Mystery

The tiny Surprise .

[sturmhauke]

That looks really hard to hit. Where do you even keep the ammo boxes though? 

[ZLM-Master]

Ammo inside the mid fuel tank , close to the RW .

I try to keep minimal mass on this one . But should this enough to compete against other craft with high TWR . 

Maybe not enough .  

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, sturmhauke said:

That looks really hard to hit. Where do you even keep the ammo boxes though? 

If you thought I part clipped a lot...

[panzerknoef]

next battle: 

@dundun92 is the creator of both competitors in this battle as the Du-11B-10 faces off against the Du-15-20

battles: 

Spoiler

 

Yes I do notice now that the damn radar receiver blocks some of the view again...

 

analysis: 

Spoiler

 

another short battle, a lot shorter than I expected to be honest, both aircraft were good and seemingly fairly equal on paper, but the battles turned out very onesided. Makes sense though, with a few generations of aircraft in between, the newer generation really is better. So anyway, 2 rounds, the first one very onesided, even if it did have some friendly fire (once again, not critical). The Du-11 simply didn't seem to have the mitigation to take on the Du-15. The latter one really can tank missiles very well, and that's an exceptional counter against a very missile spammy aircraft such as the the Du-11. We did once again see the very sensitive roll on the Du-15 in play, it was already more critical here since it definitely did prevent the Du-15 from taking shots that it would've been able to if it were more stable. Once again it didn't matter though, so the Du-15 moves up to spot 4 from where it will face the UT-7-B4

 

[Xd the great]

@panzerknoef are modular missiles allowed?

[panzerknoef]

1 hour ago, Xd the great said:

@panzerknoef are modular missiles allowed?

Depends on what you're planning to do with them 

[Xd the great]

8 hours ago, panzerknoef said:

Depends on what you're planning to do with them 

What about as missiles?

[panzerknoef]

7 hours ago, Xd the great said:

What about as missiles?

should be fine then, curious to see what you've got planned!