Kerbal Space Program DLC: “Breaking Gound” Grand Discussion Thread

[Levelord]

I don't post very often nowadays but I don't see what the controversy is.

 

It's a DLC that adds new content. Sometimes I think people are just grasping at straws to complain about here.

[klgraham1013]

26 minutes ago, Levelord said:

I don't post very often nowadays but I don't see what the controversy is.

 

It's a DLC that adds new content. Sometimes I think people are just grasping at straws to complain about here.

If the announcement thread is any indication, there isn't a controversy.  Most people seem to be really hype for the DLC.  Let's not take the complaints of a small minority and paste them onto the whole.  There's far to much of that these days.

Edited May 8, 2019 by klgraham1013

[razark]

Game = Good

Game + (new content added by mods) = Better

Game + (new content added by DLC) = Horrible abomination which should not be

 

Uh huh.  People are not opposed to new content.  People are opposed to where that new content comes from.

"Thank you, Squad, for making a game we like and allowing us to reward you with our money.  Now stop making the game better and allowing us to reward you with our money, it makes you look greedy."

[ZooNamedGames]

Just now, razark said:

Game = Good

Game + (new content added by mods) = Better

Game + (new content added by DLC) = monetizing mods

Fixed that for you.

I'm not against DLC as a whole- I'm against DLC that do nothing but take existing mods and sell them to us when they were free. Unlike what @Loskene says, just because it isn't requested, doesn't mean a new fresh idea isn't beneficial. A quick glance at Making History's reveal thread- showed a lot of opposition to just adding parts, but the Mission Maker, a feature not requested and not available from mods, was widely praised. This mod doesn't add anything to features and functionality we already have, for free. I came up with several ideas, and that's without knowing a damn thing about future updates, future DLCs, the development path for KSP, or anyone else. I'm sure a team of people tasked with brain storming a few non-mod ideas can come up dozens more. Mods have done a lot but that can't do everything and I want to put my money into functionality and experiences I haven't had a chance to have through mods.

"But they need money" I know they do. Hence why I stating that I want my money to go towards content that isn't already available on Spacedock for free, with a few dozen easy clicks as opposed to forking over cash for the same functionality.

[razark]

Yeah, I heard you the first thousand times it was posted.

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, razark said:

Yeah, I heard you the first thousand times it was posted.

If it's said a thousand times- then maybe there's a point to be heard- rather than outright dismissing it.

[Kerbart]

3 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Fixed that for you.

I'm not against DLC as a whole- I'm against DLC that do nothing but take existing mods and sell them to us when they were free. (...)

 

That’s a serious allegation. Are you suggestion Squad is ripping mods, inserting them in the game as if they wrote it themselves? Yes, that is absolutely deplorable.

I thought that they were adding functionality to the game that is greatly wanted by most players, and that was offered in the past by a mod but is no longer available.

Squad is offering something the mods can’t offer: continuity, and superior integration into the game. As far as I’m concerned the next five DLC’s can offer only “mod functionality” if it removes pressure on the mod community for “essential mods.” (You know who you are.)

Every update I observe with clenched butt cheeks. Will my beloved mods still work? How long until they are updated? And I’ve lost a few over the years. Squad, take my money, for my peace of mind.

[razark]

True, some people may need it mentioned again, since it's likely to get lost among the many more people that seem happy with the update.

[T1mo98]

8 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Fixed that for you.

I'm not against DLC as a whole- I'm against DLC that do nothing but take existing mods and sell them to us when they were free. Unlike what @Loskene says, just because it isn't requested, doesn't mean a new fresh idea isn't beneficial. A quick glance at Making History's reveal thread- showed a lot of opposition to just adding parts, but the Mission Maker, a feature not requested and not available from mods, was widely praised. This mod doesn't add anything to features and functionality we already have, for free. I came up with several ideas, and that's without knowing a damn thing about future updates, future DLCs, the development path for KSP, or anyone else. I'm sure a team of people tasked with brain storming a few non-mod ideas can come up dozens more. Mods have done a lot but that can't do everything and I want to put my money into functionality and experiences I haven't had a chance to have through mods.

"But they need money" I know they do. Hence why I stating that I want my money to go towards content that isn't already available on Spacedock for free, with a few dozen easy clicks as opposed to forking over cash for the same functionality.

I want to build craft that use robotic parts. I'm very interested in robotic parts.
I'm also very interested in having my craft be supported for as long as I choose to play the game.

If I use a mod to make those craft, I have absolutely no guarentee whatsoever that the mod will continue to be supported for the indefinite future.
I want to be able to install KSP on any machine I choose to run it on straight from Steam and use my craft without first having to install several mods.

I'd love to know what features you think would make for a good DLC that cannot be added by mods for free.

But the main message I can give you: If you don't like it, don't buy it and stop complaining about it to people who are interested in it.
 

[ZooNamedGames]

Just now, Kerbart said:

I thought that they were adding functionality to the game that is greatly wanted by most players, and that was offered in the past by a mod but is no longer available.

Functionality is good- but what the game sorely needs most is gameplay. Career overhauls, and redesign. Not just combing the mod community and saying "this is an old mod people will like, stick that in the DLC basket" and moving on. KSP has blatant problems that could benefit from a DLC but this isn't it- this is just shopping the mod scene for mods to make money off of.

2 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Squad is offering something the mods can’t offer: continuity, and superior integration into the game.

Maybe- but mod makers can do something fresh and new with their mod. Squad has shown no interest in improving existing addons (Asteroid Day, SLS parts pack, Making History). Will they work? Yes, but frankly the mods work for me fine anyway. So far Squad has shown little interest in keeping the addon side of the game updated along with the rest of KSP. Mod makers can focus on that, Squad can't as they have an entire game to worry about.

6 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Every update I observe with clenched butt cheeks. Will my beloved mods still work? How long until they are updated? And I’ve lost a few over the years. Squad, take my money, for my peace of mind.

Often mods work fine between updates. Larger jumps between versions are always risky but that's on the player for not keeping their mods updated. I've seen some mods even use the prerelease versions to prep their mods so when it does drop, they already have working versions.

4 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

I want to build craft that use robotic parts. I'm very interested in robotic parts.

 

Well then Infernal Robotics (or whatever it's name is) has you covered for $0.00 USD. Available now where ever your local mods are sold.

6 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

I want to be able to install KSP on any machine I choose to run it on straight from Steam and use my craft without first having to install several mods

As a KSP store buyer- I have to download the DLC(s) separately and individually just like a mod.

7 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

I'd love to know what features you think would make for a good DLC that cannot be added by mods for free.

career improvements, custom suit designer, custom engine designer, fuel tank texture designer, custom contract creator. I came up with a few and I'm a single guy without the financial resources of Squad and a team of others to brain storm. I'm sure they can think of something.

9 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

But the main message I can give you: If you don't like it, don't buy it and stop complaining about it to people who are interested in it.

My message is I'd like to tell Squad what my money should go towards.

I didn't initially complain on this thread- I had my own to keep the praise and criticisms separate but my thread got merged so this is where the conversation has moved to.

[T1mo98]

5 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

KSP has blatant problems that could benefit from a DLC.

A DLC that's meant to fix problems the game has is a terrible, terrible TERRIBLE idea that is going to do nothing but liquid off the community and make Squad look like the most greedy company in the industry. DLC needs to add features and content, hence the name, it SHOULD NOT be used to fix problems the game currently has.

 

6 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Maybe- but mod makers can do something fresh and new with their mod. Squad has shown no interest in improving existing addons (Asteroid Day, SLS parts pack, Making History). Will they work? Yes, but frankly the mods work for me fine anyway. So far Squad has shown little interest in keeping the addon side of the game updated along with the rest of KSP. Mod makers can focus on that, Squad can't as they have an entire game to worry about.

 

Asteroid Day has been integrated into the main game. I have no idea what you're talking about with the SLS parts pack, if you mean the 3.75m parts, there's no reason to assume they won't revamp them like they've been doing all the other parts and Making History still receives bug fixes, balance tweaks and even new, extra content for owners of that DLC.

 

6 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Often mods work fine between updates. Larger jumps between versions are always risky but that's on the player for not keeping their mods updated. I've seen some mods even use the prerelease versions to prep their mods so when it does drop, they already have working versions.

"that's on the player for not keeping their mods updated" No, that's on the modder for not updating their mods. There is nothing wrong with a modder deciding to stop, but ignoring that this is a very real possibility is very short-sighted.

[T1mo98]

16 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Well then Infernal Robotics (or whatever it's name is) has you covered for $0.00 USD. Available now where ever your local mods are sold

I refer you to my other remarks about using mods, don't ignore the perfectly valid reasons other people have for not wanting to rely on them.

17 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

career improvements, custom suit designer, custom engine designer, fuel tank texture designer, custom contract creator. I came up with a few and I'm a single guy without the financial resources of Squad and a team of others to brain storm. I'm sure they can think of something.

They're already making career improvements by adding surface level science.

Custom suits can already be designed with Texture Replacer.
Custom engines can already be made using mods or tweaking the values in the game files.
There's a mod for fuel tanks and other parts.

There's already a mod for creating custom contracts.

As previously said by @Snark, pretty much every imaginable thing is already possible through modding except for under the hood changes which should never be locked behind DLC.

[ZooNamedGames]

5 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

A DLC that's meant to fix problems the game has is a terrible, terrible TERRIBLE idea that is going to do nothing but liquid off the community and make Squad look like the most greedy company in the industry

Must be why pure career mods like the rover science mod was chosen. After all, Squad has shown no indication on improving career for vanilla players. So this most certainly does look like an improvement put behind a paywall.

7 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

DLC needs to add features and content, hence the name, it SHOULD NOT be used to fix problems the game currently has.

Your right, they should add original features.

8 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

SLS parts pack, if you mean the 3.75m parts, there's no reason to assume they won't revamp them like they've been doing all the other parts

I'd like to know when since so far it's been crickets.

9 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

Making History still receives bug fixes, balance tweaks and even new, extra content for owners of that DLC.

Ignoring that Squad is the owner of the DLC- what is this new content? I've continously installed the mod and haven't seen it. Unless you're referring to player made content through the mission maker. Which is clearly a far shot from Squad actually maintaining the DLC.

 

[EasyAce]

I really dislike this DLC, in a positive way...

 

I've been in and out of KSP for a long time. Everytime I restart, I want the latest update, and with the latest essential mods.

Why mods? Well I love the game, it is just a little bit shallow.

 

So, 2 weeks ago I started to play KSP again. I think this is probably the plus 10th time I return after some months pause. This time for 1.7. The latest week I finaly see my setup is working awesome and I am back into using KOS and stuff like that. The campagin is progressing nice, I've reached the Mun.

Today you announce new content. Awesome content! This will reduce one of those essential mods I have.

The stupid... well I have to start all over again... and probably wait some time until my modlist is back on track.

 

Love this game!

Its deeply frustratingly lovely!

[ZooNamedGames]

43 minutes ago, T1mo98 said:

I refer you to my other remarks about using mods, don't ignore the perfectly valid reasons other people have for not wanting to rely on them.

They're already making career improvements by adding surface level science.

Custom suits can already be designed with Texture Replacer.
Custom engines can already be made using mods or tweaking the values in the game files.
There's a mod for fuel tanks and other parts.

There's already a mod for creating custom contracts.

As previously said by @Snark, pretty much every imaginable thing is already possible through modding except for under the hood changes which should never be locked behind DLC.

Nearly all of those suggestions require out-of-game development and tools that generic normal players won't have. Creating engines requires knowing how to code, what values are equal to what, and so on. So no, you have provided a solution.

Also if everything has been thought of- then why doesn't Squad stop with updates and just optimize the game? Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean Squad can't.

[snip]

Edited May 8, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[adsii1970]

Folks, several of the posts in this thread could be considered as abusive towards various forum members. While it is perfectly okay and acceptable to discuss the differences in opinion about the new DLC that Squad has announced, personally attacking other forum members, belittling other forum members, and posting responses which only serve to escalate hostilities are against forum rules. Some posts have already been hidden because of their volatile nature.

If this continues, those involved in such activities might be subjecting themselves to official warnings from the moderation team. 

[T1mo98]

38 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Must be why pure career mods like the rover science mod was chosen. After all, Squad has shown no indication on improving career for vanilla players. So this most certainly does look like an improvement put behind a paywall.

It adds to what is already in the game, it doesn't change the things already present.

[snip]

38 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I'd like to know when since so far it's been crickets.

They revamped 1.25m tanks, they revamped 2.5m tanks, they revamped numerous engines and tons of other stuff. There is NOTHING that implies that they wouldn't ever revamp the 3.75m parts.

38 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Ignoring that Squad is the owner of the DLC- what is this new content? I've continously installed the mod and haven't seen it. Unless you're referring to player made content through the mission maker. Which is clearly a far shot from Squad actually maintaining the DLC.

The DLC has been updated with every update made, bringing bugfixes, balance tweaks and they added a 5m nosecone in 1.7. Saying they never maintained the mod is simply false.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[ZooNamedGames]

31 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

Folks, several of the posts in this thread could be considered as abusive towards various forum members. While it is perfectly okay and acceptable to discuss the differences in opinion about the new DLC that Squad has announced, personally attacking other forum members, belittling other forum members, and posting responses which only serve to escalate hostilities are against forum rules. Some posts have already been hidden because of their volatile nature.

I'm just wanting a voice against the unending wave of optimism.

Also congrats on your promotion to moderator.

I've made my opinion and some [snip] believe that "there's nothing new Squad can do" and that their money is spent on what's currently free.

We have differing opinions. Pretty straight forward.

Our ideas of what should be a DLC are different.

I'll leave this here as I've said what I needed to. Feel free to continue arguing but I'm done.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Phoenix84]

I don't understand the issue. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

If someone doesn't it like it, then who cares? Leave them to their opinion. It's obvious people on both sides are not going to change their mind. Everyone wants something different from this game, and that's not wrong. However arguing about it doesn't help. Just leave your opinion on what you like, and what you don't, and what you'd like to see instead, if you want, and leave it at that. This applies to everyone (I know the OP in the original thread did that). Next DLC might be something you like instead, and that other person doesn't.

 

Squad is not going to make something everyone is going to like, that's a fact.

Some people didn't like MH, some did. There are those that bought it, and those that didn't. Same here, some people don't like this DLC, others do. Don't like it, don't buy it. The amount of sales Squad gets or doesn't get will tell them if the DLC was a good idea or not.

EDIT: "you" here is generic, and not directed at anyone in particular.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Phoenix84

[ZooNamedGames]

16 minutes ago, Phoenix84 said:

I don't understand the issue. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

To clarify- I'm voicing my opinion for future updates. I can't change the content of this DLC but I'd like to voice my desires for the next DLC.

[snip]

Edited May 8, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Snark]

More content has had to be removed and/or redacted due to various people ignoring the polite moderator request immediately preceding.  So, last warning, folks:

Play. Nice.

C'mon, folks, you're better than this.  You know better.  You're all familiar with the forum rules (right?), and that we're all expected to behave like civil adults (right?), and that personal attacks on other forum members are not okay.  Right?

And, furthermore, even though we all know that such behavior would never be okay, it's especially not okay to engage in it right after a moderator has cautioned people about it.

So knock it off, please.

It's fine to have ideas.  It's fine to debate those ideas with others who disagree, since we're all friends here.  And it's fine to be spirited about it.  But it is not okay to be a jerk by making personal attacks on other people.  Address the post, not the poster, please.  Leave the accusations and name-calling at home.  Do not initiate them yourself.  And if someone else does it to you, don't respond-- just report the post and move on.

Further transgressions along these lines will be dealt with sternly.  Thank you for your understanding.

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

If it's said a thousand times- then maybe there's a point to be heard- rather than outright dismissing it.

1000 people saying it once: Valid point.

1 person saying it 1000 times: Ranting.

Could you at least link to this long list of great ideas for gameplay that mods have never done?

The main thing that attracts me to this DLC is the idea of robotics with a decent interface. I've never, ever liked the interface for IR. I also hated the UIs for FAR and ScanSat. When Squad "just" copied those mods and put them in the game, they did so with a bang-up UI. THAT is what I'm hyped for here.

Not robotics. Robotics I'll actually want to use.

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

The main thing that attracts me to this DLC is the idea of robotics with a decent interface. I've never, ever liked the interface for IR. I also hated the UIs for FAR and ScanSat. When Squad "just" copied those mods and put them in the game, they did so with a bang-up UI. THAT is what I'm hyped for here.

When ComNet was first introduced, I didn't really care for it.  After adding Orbital Survey Plus, and giving it a fair shake, I've really grown to love the stock system.  Really, just that one difficulty change was all I needed.  Now I see little reason to install another comms mod.  Even though DLC may duplicate mods at times, I hope their integration goes the same as it did with ComNet for me.  The better stock KSP becomes, the fewer caveats I need to give to friends when introducing them to it.  The less we need to rely on super fans doing work for free with little reward.  Linux Guru Gamer can't be relied upon forever after all. 

[micha]

10 hours ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Because we want to make sure any future DLCs won’t just be a compilation of mods that we suddenly have to pay for. I would prefer something original- something mods CAN’T do. There isn’t anything new or original here.

While on the surface this might just look like a compilation of existing mods to you, there is more to it than that.

For example, SEP has always had major issues placing experiments on the ground. This DLC must include a game-engine fix for this problem so overall surface interactions should become more stable.

Another item interesting for me (since I maintain a mod which does something similar) is support for stock long-running experiments instead of insta-click science. It'll be fantastic to see what new functionality this opens up for modders.

So no, it's not at all just "monetizing existing mods"... underlying game engine changes to support some ideas turn a hack into a feature, and that's only something Squad can do.

Finally, the community has cried out for a long time for more things to do on planets, mods notwithstanding, and Squad is now delivering something to address that request.

[Pthigrivi]

Again, just to reiterate:

“Study the soaring plume of a cryovolcano on Vall, mysterious craters on Moho, and even more new features on all of the other moons and planets of the Solar System”

Is not something any current mod does. It is a new and unique expansion of gameplay that many people have wished for that only Squad is capable of pulling off, exactly the kind of investment in development a DLC is made for. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Pthigrivi