[1.12.1] JNSQ [0.10.0] [23 Sept 2021]

[eddiew]

Rookie question if I may... how well to spaceplanes fare at regular JNSQ scale vs the 1/10 option? 

[Marchosaur]

:0

[Lt_Duckweed]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

Rookie question if I may... how well to spaceplanes fare at regular JNSQ scale vs the 1/10 option? 

They are much more difficult, but by no means impossible, and can still be very effective and carry payloads to orbit, and go interplanetary.

However, JNSQ  SSTOs are much less forgiving.

I would describe SSTO building as following an curve with skill that has a very sharp inflection point.  That is, for a very long time, even as you get better at making sstos the overall quality of your craft doesn't get that much better, but once you hit a certain point, it explodes very rapidly.  For usable stock scale SSTOs you don't have to have found your way past the inflection point.

For JNSQ SSTOs you do.  In other words, for a very long time JNSQ SSTOs just don't really work, and then suddenly at a certain skill level they work just fine.

[OhioBob]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

Rookie question if I may... how well to spaceplanes fare at regular JNSQ scale vs the 1/10 option? 

I'm not a spaceplane person, but from what I've seen and heard, they work fine.  But don't conflate "spaceplace" with "SSTO".  They're not the same thing.

[eddiew]

17 minutes ago, Lt_Duckweed said:

However, JNSQ  SSTOs are much less forgiving.

15 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

  But don't conflate "spaceplace" with "SSTO".  They're not the same thing.

I feel like I'm going to have to just mess around in sandbox and make my own conclusions, but thank you - at least I know it might work out 

TLDR, I'm used to stock-a-like MK2 and MK3 SSTO spaceplanes, but I've not tried anything at higher scale. Relatively sure I used to be able to get one to Mun's surface and back however, so maybe that will carry me to LKO in JNSQ?

But I'm certainly not too proud to use the 1/10 option if I can't get the effects I like out of default. In the end, singleplayer game, no point pushing it in directions the player doesn't enjoy 

[OhioBob]

UPDATE

Version 0.10.1

Changelog

• Flipped planet & Strategia icons upright.
• Revised scatterer settings, sky color is now cast on objects.
• Revised terrain detail presets; fixed conflict with GPP.
• Removed color map from AirBaseBoneyard map decal.
• Added CommNetConstellation compatibility (uses KK ground stations instead of stock).
• Added optional mod: JavelinEngine (designed for use on Nara).

This update does not fix bugs associated with the additional KK launch sites and facilities.  These sites are undergoing revisions that will be included in a future update.  In the meantime you'll just have to cope with any known problems.

Be advised that this version of JNSQ is compatible with scatterer only through v0.0772.  Newer versions of scatterer may not work.

DOWNLOAD

Edited November 12, 2021 by OhioBob

[DeadJohn]

3 hours ago, eddiew said:

I'm used to stock-a-like MK2 and MK3 SSTO spaceplanes, but I've not tried anything at higher scale.

Are you referring to the 2 spaceplane mods? If yes, I strongly recommend them with JNSQ.

OPT is yet another spaceplane mod to consider. Its more powerful than the Mk2 and Mk3 mods. Some OPT engines are powerful-yet-balanced, while other engines are magically overpowered.

[Grimmas]

As the guy who wrote the CNC patch, let me add two caveats that I have discovered after playtesting it for a few days now:

1) You will see the old Kerbin names for some DSN sites (ie "Kerbin: Crater Rim" etc) in the comms readout (when hovering over the green arrow). This is because I had to reference the old Kerbin IDs in order to avoid CNC from duplicating those sites, and KSP uses the internal ID name instead of the CNC display name for the CommNet displays (haven't found an elegant way around this yet).  You will still only see the correct CNC display name on the map, so this is purely a minor visual issue and doesn't affect anything significant.

2) CNC can be quite janky in deciding what sites to add to its list or to ignore - I recommend you do not change the default values in difficulty settings (both advanced and Kerbal Konstructs settings) for enabling/disabling extra ground stations, as this can lead to multiple sites being repeatedly added to the list (so you may end up with two or three DNS sites at Yaeger, for instance). If you don't fiddle with those settings then it will work fine. 

[JadeOfMaar]

6 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

other engines are magically overpowered.

Which ones?

 

12 hours ago, eddiew said:

Rookie question if I may... how well to spaceplanes fare at regular JNSQ scale vs the 1/10 option? 

Expect a very visible measure of added difficulty. Orbital velocity is no longer a walk in the park, and JNSQ has aggressive shock heating which will threaten (more than usual) any cockpits, most stock cylinder parts and externally surface-attached electricals. On the other hand, you've flown on GPP's Tellumo, right? Then you have experience to fall back on.

If you're into jet engine mods, you'll find the niche engines like scramjets and air-augmented rockets much more worthwhile than not.

10 hours ago, eddiew said:

Relatively sure I used to be able to get one to Mun's surface and back however, so maybe that will carry me to LKO in JNSQ?

There are many stock spaceplanes that can do that... Expect most of them to not even pass as suborbital hoppers here. Stock scale and its very low orbital velocity allow for SSTO planes to be very small, rely almost entirely on air-breathing for the ascent phase, and minimize their Oxidizer use for orbital insertion. The LFO-burning phase of ascent is much longer now, which means more LFO needs to be carried, which means more engines are needed to maintain good TWR for that fuel and every burn phase, which means more dead engine mass to take stock of, and the tyranny of the rocket equation blooms quickly.

Edited November 10, 2021 by JadeOfMaar

[Grimmas]

2 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Which ones?

I venture to guess that we are all in the Dark here about which kind of Engine it possibly is.

[eddiew]

3 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

On the other hand, you've flown on GPP's Tellumo, right?

I honestly can't remember if I did, or just planned to! I definitely landed on Tellumo, and was aware of other people doing ascents from it. Also had Tellumo visible in the sky because I'd edited another modded planet to be it's moon 

Feels like I need to put some sandbox time in and just play around and see what I can do. Entirely possible that some advanced engines will be needed - that's fine, never been afraid of many mods, just need to work out what's still good these days. I'm a little out of the loop 

[OhioBob]

Based on the discussion that has followed, it looks like that when @eddiew said "spaceplane" he did in fact mean a "spaceplane SSTO".  For future reference, be aware that just because something is a spaceplane, that doesn't necessarily mean it's an SSTO.  For instance, something that has all the characteristics of a plane could get its initial boost from a disposable rocket stage.  Or it could have its takeoff thrust augmented by disposable SRBs (rocket-assisted takeoff, or RATO).  Or a single stage rocket plane could be lifted to altitude and dropped by another aircraft, thus it wouldn't technically be a SSTO.  And an SSTO does not necessarily need to be a spaceplane.  A vertically launch rocket could also reach orbit as a single stage.  Remember that SSTO means "single stage to orbit", so the vehicle doesn't have to reenter and return intact to be a SSTO, nor does it need to be reusable.

[Norcalplanner]

The recent changes look awesome.  Here's hoping that work calms down enough that I have the bandwidth for KSP sometime soon. 

[eddiew]

Situation report... spent about 30 mins in the SPH and sort of made an SSTO that works in JNSQ default scale? Stock+Tweakscale, plus some old models for air intakes.

 

Didn't carry any cargo, arrived at 100x100km with 200m/s left. Never used the rapiers in closed cycle, should investigate using a much smaller orbital engine and whether the weight saved can justify the low ISP during ascent. Not quite sure what happened to the control surfaces, they were scaled right when I left the SPH 

Few more pics in spoiler to not clutter this thread. 

Spoiler

Re-entry was terrifying. I apparently forgot to check for aerodynamic stability with zero fuel...

But somehow nothing exploded, and all the flipping around distributed the heat quite well. Eventually at very slow speeds, she started answering the helm again.

And after finally coming to a halt in the water, was recovered.

 

All in all, a horribly designed bird, but enough to let me know that it's at least possible to do this. Will see if I can create something a bit more refined that comes back down the right way up 

Also seem to have some stripy artefacts in the ocean, might have done something wrong on install. Will investigate that later.

[flart]

Does scatterer update need some configuration update? 

Also does scatterer settings in the alt+f10 GUI work as expected or JNSQ replace them with the configuration settings?

[OhioBob]

4 hours ago, flart said:

Does scatterer update need some configuration update? 

I don't know.  JNSQ has been confirmed to work with scatterer v0.772, beyond that it has not been tested.

Why don't you install the latest scatterer and then report back to let us know if it works or not?

Quote

Also does scatterer settings in the alt+f10 GUI work as expected or JNSQ replace them with the configuration settings?

I don't know what scatterer settings you're talking about, but JNSQ includes its own scatter configs.
 

Edited November 12, 2021 by OhioBob

[Grimmas]

1 hour ago, OhioBob said:

...report back to let us know if it works or not?

 

Sadly, the new Scatterer update breaks JNSQ a bit. Eve and Jool are completely black, for instance, and Laythe is blue.

[OhioBob]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:43 AM, Grimmas said:

Sadly, the new Scatterer update breaks JNSQ a bit. Eve and Jool are completely black, for instance, and Laythe is blue.

Then don't use the new scatterer.  I don't know if or when JNSQ will update.

Edited June 16, 2023 by OhioBob

[Grimmas]

Uhh... I just answered your question. You don't need to jump on me. Would you rather not know that there's an issue with the new Scatterer and JNSQ?

[OhioBob]

2 hours ago, Grimmas said:

Uhh... I just answered your question. You don't need to jump on me. Would you rather not know that there's an issue with the new Scatterer and JNSQ?

I'm not jumping on you.  I'm just notifying you that there are no current plans to update JNSQ for the new scatterer.

By the way, thanks for letting me know.
 

Edited November 12, 2021 by OhioBob

[Lt_Duckweed]

On 11/10/2021 at 4:16 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

There are many stock spaceplanes that can do that... Expect most of them to not even pass as suborbital hoppers here. Stock scale and its very low orbital velocity allow for SSTO planes to be very small, rely almost entirely on air-breathing for the ascent phase, and minimize their Oxidizer use for orbital insertion. The LFO-burning phase of ascent is much longer now, which means more LFO needs to be carried, which means more engines are needed to maintain good TWR for that fuel and every burn phase, which means more dead engine mass to take stock of, and the tyranny of the rocket equation blooms quickly.

Even for stock LKO, liquid fuel only Rapier-Nerv spaceplane SSTOs enjoy a performance advantage over pure Rapier LFO SSTOs.   As you go upwards in scale, they lose performance at a much slower pace as well, due to the much higher ISP.  The end result is that the hit to performance going to JNSQ is not as harsh as many assume.  Of course, special attention needs to be paid to the harsher ascent and entry heat (especially on ascent, as ascent is lift supported nearly the entire way to orbit), but this is ultimately manageable via smart design, and payload fractions near 30% should be achievable.

[flart]

On 11/12/2021 at 6:04 PM, OhioBob said:

I don't know what scatterer settings you're talking about,

 

Spoiler

 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:45 PM, OhioBob said:

Quote

Sadly, the new Scatterer update breaks JNSQ a bit. Eve and Jool are completely black, for instance, and Laythe is blue.

Then don't use the new scatterer.  I don't if or when JNSQ will update.

ok

[Gordon Dry]

On 10/10/2019 at 10:37 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

These require only OSSNTR (Omega's Stockalike Structures: No Textures Required)

The word ONLY:

Does it mean

• It's simple. just install "Omega's Stockalike Structures: No Textures Required" - and its dependency "Kerbal Konstructs".

or does it mean

• You only need "Omega's Stockalike Structures: No Textures Required" but not "Kerbal Konstructs".

Just curious.

[Grimmas]

You quite obviously need both if you want to see any of that stuff in-game.

[Gordon Dry]

I thought that, but the word only was waving at me and I had to ask.