U.S. Space Force Discussion Thread

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

An arrow shot from a bow will penetrate body armor

???

It will stick in, but hardly do some damage behind.

(And if the vest is enforced with plates, then no.)

1 hour ago, WestAir said:

And so it reasons that a 1st Century Archer is still a lethal threat to a soldier of the 21st Century.

At the short pistol range.

Edited July 9, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Guest]

It also depends on the bow. An English longbow (admittedly, rather more advanced than 1st century) could indeed do a lot of damage, even at range, and maybe punch through weaker armor, especially since arrows move slower than bullets, so what you want against them is an anti-stab vest, not a bullet-resistant one. Not every bow is as good, and while some ancient cultures did have recurve bows this powerful, an average hunting bow would not reliably do damage to modern body armor even from a close range.

Aliens might well be invulnerable to conventional military tech, even without energy shields, if they have active defenses capable of reliably vaporizing kinetic rounds before they hit. A rapidly expanding cloud of lead gas is rather less damaging than a bullet of the same mass, and if you have a laser that can intercept autocannon rounds and KE rounds from tank guns, then we really don't have anything better currently in service.

[WestAir]

1 hour ago, kerbiloid said:

???

It will stick in, but hardly do some damage behind.

(And if the vest is enforced with plates, then no.)

At the short pistol range.

A few youtube videos I saw a while back showed people blasting through riot shields and body armor with bows and crossbows. That said; I don't know the specifics, so I'll concede to your expertise.

That concession stated, I still find issue with the the argument that an alien race, based solely on its ability to endure centuries of travel, must also be militaristically superior to us at home field. While not unreasonable, the premise sounds like a logical fallacy. On the topic of practicality: If a species were so advanced as to make short work of us, surely it would be far easier for that species to never invent or maintain such demanding, complex, and resource expensive capabilities to begin with, and instead opt for the much simpler "relativistic planet killer" technique?

As a mandatory disclaimer, I'm an expert on none of the aforementioned topics, so I ask you take my opinions as questions in lieu of statements.

Edited July 9, 2020 by WestAir

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, WestAir said:

I guess a ship that can convert a collection of degenerate matter into usable ammunition / point defense might be able to reliably shoot down hundreds of thousands our constant projectiles but if a species is that advanced, it would also be far easier to never invent / maintain such capabilities to begin with and instead opt for the much easier "relativistic planet killer" technique.

Actually, it's the opposite. Relativistic planet killers are a stupid idea bordering on impossible, just because how much energy you have to put into such a weapon, and also the difficulty of aiming it. Remember, the reason RKVs are so apocalyptic is because they carry enormous energy, and it all has to come from somewhere. Furthermore, aiming at a planet at interstellar distances might even run into quantum uncertainty barrier (no amount of tech will let you bypass that), and when you're traveling at near the speed of light, it's difficult to make any kind of midcourse corrections. For the record, you'd need pointing accuracy of 10^-8 degrees in order to have your miss radius equal to Earth's radius, if firing from Alpha Centauri. That's about the equivalent of being able to aim at a single atom from a meter away.

A PD, meanwhile, is a matter of making a powerful enough laser and switching it between targets fast enough. We can already track gun shots, even HEAT and KE projectiles (not that we can do anything about the latter at the moment). If you have a laser large enough to vaporize a depleted uranium penetrator (would make a good primary weapon, too, unless of course you've got even more powerful ones for that), able to turns fast and precisely enough to aim at it (easy enough if you can make a lightweight turreted mirror) and a power source to keep it firing continuously (the hard part, but not physically impossible), you could wipe the floor with anything and everything humanity currently has in its arsenal.

[DDE]

7 minutes ago, Dragon01 said:

KE projectiles (not that we can do anything about the latter at the moment)

Late-model Arena and Afghanit are rated against APFSDS. That, and their distant relative, Mozyr, reportedly slapped an inert MIRV out of the sky in 1990.

[Guest]

I have my doubts about how much firing a shotgun shell at a DU penetrator will actually do, but I guess it's possible to hit them, at least.  AFAIK, neither system in its latest version had seen real combat use (and it might be a while before it does, the most likely flashpoints don't have much of an APFSDS threat). 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Guest

[DDE]

5 hours ago, Dragon01 said:

I have my doubts about how much firing a shotgun shell at a DU penetrator will actually do, but I guess it's possible to hit them, at least.

Apparently these things are now EFPs themselves. As to Mozyr, you don't need much mass if the target is closing in at Mach 20.

[Spacescifi]

16 hours ago, WestAir said:

I just want to address this concept of a space fairing race being impervious to our attacks. An old bullet can still cause new wounds. In fact: An arrow shot from a bow will penetrate body armor; And so it reasons that a 1st Century Archer is still a lethal threat to a soldier of the 21st Century. Not an equal threat, obviously, but a threat. Like-wise, as far as any of us can tell, any alien race that visits Earth will be subject to thermodynamics, momentum, and the rest, and so it reasons a bullet (or 6,000 rounds per minute from a dozen CIWS turrets backed by a liberal amount of AIM-120's) will still kill them.

 

Not everything in the universe, which includes stuff undetectable by us, is actually subject to  thermodynamics and momentum... as we know them.

With enough time this will become known I suspect.

At any rate, I don't even have to cheat physics to stomp Earth space force.

All I would need is a few hundred antimatter ton bombs missiles.

Damage blast radius in vacuum?

About 500 kilometers!  That will fry/vapiorize a swarm of missiles headed it's way.

Anything within a few or perhaps even tens of kilometers is getting vaporized in space when it detonates.

That's about 43000 megatons!

Basically, with a single missile of this type I could detonate and burn a radius distance over TWICE the distance to the space boundary from Earth's surface.

 

And if I decided to actually detonate a thousand kilogram antimatter warhead in Earth's atmosphere... the results will be VERY visible from orbit.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Spacescifi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 7/9/2020 at 2:15 AM, kerbiloid said:

???

It will stick in, but hardly do some damage behind.

(And if the vest is enforced with plates, then no.)

At the short pistol range.

 

On 7/9/2020 at 3:37 AM, WestAir said:

A few youtube videos I saw a while back showed people blasting through riot shields and body armor with bows and crossbows. That said; I don't know the specifics, so I'll concede to your expertise.

That concession stated, I still find issue with the the argument that an alien race, based solely on its ability to endure centuries of travel, must also be militaristically superior to us at home field. While not unreasonable, the premise sounds like a logical fallacy. On the topic of practicality: If a species were so advanced as to make short work of us, surely it would be far easier for that species to never invent or maintain such demanding, complex, and resource expensive capabilities to begin with, and instead opt for the much simpler "relativistic planet killer" technique?

As a mandatory disclaimer, I'm an expert on none of the aforementioned topics, so I ask you take my opinions as questions in lieu of statements.

A quibble about the arrow and the body armor... 

 

I assume you are aware of the Marines' reputation for having the best and brightest minds in the world... Well, just before I arrived at TBS a couple of our 'jeniuses' put on their body armor before testing it against the KABAR. 

A little trivia about military body armor - while often perceived as a protective layer against bullets... It's not.  The old 'Flak Vest' moniker is actually more accurate - the body armor is worn to protect the torso against shrapnel from mortars, grenades, etc. and not specifically against military grade rifle rounds. This is mostly because flexible Kevlar body armor is ineffective against rifle rounds.  Even the hard helmet is only viable against 9mm pistol rounds... But rifle rounds go right through.  Adding a hard, thick plate can be effective for rifle rounds - but they're heavy, awkward and only cover the heart and lung areas.  Additionally, Kevlar and the like are designed to dissipate the blunt force impact of shrapnel - but like all cloth can be cut. 

 

So, going back to super smart Marine Officers using the body armor to protect against the KABAR knife - they discovered to their surprise that it went right through. Seeing as it's a seven inch blade and the heart is about 4 inches inside the chest, it was the last mistake one of them ever made. 

 

To leap to the next conclusion - the technology of the European settlers / conquistadors is less a factor in understanding the repopulation of the Americas than the simple fact of the population mismatch resulting from the pandemics that preceded mass colonization. Dee Brown once pointed out that in the Wild West days, starting around 1860, there were about 300,000 Native Americans of various cultures west of the Mississippi while there were about 60 million European / African derived people living East of the river.  By 1890, the number of Native Americans was about the same - 300,000... While the 'Americans' numbers had exploded to over 90 million. 

... 

So yes, low tech can kill high tech - but ultimately the numbers are determinative 

 

[DDE]

Looks like the Space Force can't let go of a more familiar medium

 

[DDE]

 

[Superfluous J]

Their mission? To boldly go where no one has gone before.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Superfluous J
Removed the redundant tweet.

[kerbiloid]

16 minutes ago, DDE said:

 

Does the "Always above" include the riding position?

(I mean bikes, of course)

[DDE]

7 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Their mission? To boldly go where no one has gone before.

Oh, missed my own angle: the motto puts them in direct competition with GRU Spetsnaz's 'Only stars above'.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

 

 

[DDE]

4 hours ago, DDE said:

Oh, missed my own angle: the motto puts them in direct competition with GRU Spetsnaz's 'Only stars above'.

Guys, it wasn't an invitation to respond...

 

 

 

 

[wumpus]

On 7/9/2020 at 3:37 AM, WestAir said:

A few youtube videos I saw a while back showed people blasting through riot shields and body armor with bows and crossbows. That said; I don't know the specifics, so I'll concede to your expertise.

Here's one that goes to great lengths to accurately simulate an English longbow (war bow) vs. French armor at the battle of Agincourt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE&t=1555s

WARNING: it is 30 minutes long (largely because they want to point out just how far they went to make it as accurate as possible).  Spoiler: the arrows don't penetrate the armor (breastplate, anyway).

Soft body armor simply isn't good for arrows.  Hard metal trauma plates will certainly stop it, and are overkill.  Not surprisingly, you want armor much closer to something Sir Lancelot might have worn (well more like be illustrated in, the legend probably predates plate armor) than anything issued to cops.  Even ancient shields appear to allow arrows to significantly penetrate, and use a metal "boss" to protect the hand that holds it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6IlEUm_Eo4&t=336s

(the video uses a shield strapped to the arm, but shows why boss grips might be more popular).

[Nightside]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Oriana0214/status/1286415742590767104

Space force is Gravy Fortress in Swedish.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Nightside

[DDE]

Their SMM is giving way too many openings for mockery.

 

[kerbiloid]

That's why they use that grass camouflage. Space Armo_ured Cavalry.

[Hannu2]

On 7/9/2020 at 8:04 AM, WestAir said:

I just want to address this concept of a space fairing race being impervious to our attacks. An old bullet can still cause new wounds. In fact: An arrow shot from a bow will penetrate body armor; And so it reasons that a 1st Century Archer is still a lethal threat to a soldier of the 21st Century. Not an equal threat, obviously, but a threat. Like-wise, as far as any of us can tell, any alien race that visits Earth will be subject to thermodynamics, momentum, and the rest, and so it reasons a bullet (or 6,000 rounds per minute from a dozen CIWS turrets backed by a liberal amount of AIM-120's) will still kill them.

You are right at individual level. In combat between modern infantry unit and ancient archery army few modern soldiers would probably die. But total result would be certain win for modern army. At system level idea of defense is not to make conquering of the area impossible but just too expensive. Even small country can survive near superpower, if it has credible defense. It is enough that leaders of superpower think that place is too expensive country to attack and they choose less developed neighbor instead. War is business for leaders. They may conquer resources or need distraction for their games in domestic politics. In both cases they count benefits and costs and make decision. Crazy dictators who attack for ideological reasons are very rare in modern world and usually very soon ex dictators.

It is very difficult to predict what interstellar aliens benefit it they attack to humans and what they count as costs. It is true, that if their level was not technomagic, humans could probably destroy some if their units and kill some alien individuals if they had not fully robotized army. But it is also difficult to believe that any aliens who attack against foreign civilizations for whatever reason could not stand any losses or estimate strength of targets before attack. If they have decided to attack they will do it. In any case interstellar operations need so high tech level compared to what we have that I can not believe that any defenses we are able to make would cause aliens to think that Earth is too expensive place to attack. We would be a wasp nest which is removed from garage. Pest controller could get itchy sting if he is careless or arrogant, but wasp's probability to continue their living is zero.

[Hannu2]

13 hours ago, wumpus said:

Soft body armor simply isn't good for arrows.  Hard metal trauma plates will certainly stop it, and are overkill.

There are many levels of armors. There are heavy armors able to stop rifle bullet or ant arrow, but they are heavy and limit significantly moving ability and is used rarely. Average riot police or infantry soldier do not use highest level of armors and are vulnerable to high power arrows, especially outside breast area which have the best protection. It may not be immediately lethal but incapacitate a soldier certainly and take few another to care wounded. Bows are so rare and difficult to use that it is not probable threat in practical situations.

[wumpus]

18 minutes ago, Hannu2 said:

Bows are so rare and difficult to use that it is not probable threat in practical situations.

Thus the invention of the crossbow.  Oddly enough, when I was taking archery merit badge (and thus ages ago), my state required all crossbows to be registered (but not rifles).  Either the powers that be were afraid of a weapon that is relatively silent, [soft] armor piercing, and has zero muzzle flash (but you can follow the tail of the arrow back to the crossbowman); or they simply could regulate crossbows while rifles had historical, legal, and political defenses.

Obviously crossbows are obsolescent if not obsolete (and a rate of fire worse than a muzzleloading rifle/musket).  But often easier to manufacture than rifles.

[Hannu2]

20 minutes ago, wumpus said:

Thus the invention of the crossbow.  Oddly enough, when I was taking archery merit badge (and thus ages ago), my state required all crossbows to be registered (but not rifles).  Either the powers that be were afraid of a weapon that is relatively silent, [soft] armor piercing, and has zero muzzle flash (but you can follow the tail of the arrow back to the crossbowman); or they simply could regulate crossbows while rifles had historical, legal, and political defenses.

Crossbows are effective for single stealth attacks but very impractical as general defense weapons. I think it is main reason why it is so rarely used by criminals. It is relatively easy and cheap to buy illegal smuggled or stolen pistol and hide it in pocket. As far as I know most severe crimes with crossbow are made by somehow mentally disturbed individuals who does not have contacts to criminal underworld.

In my country discussion about should crossbows be regulated is awaken between few years, usually after someone makes a murder. There has been increasing number of problems in last years, threatening or attack against polices or other people and also hunting crimes (as far as I know all hunting with crossbow is illegal). So far anyone adult can buy a crossbow as a sporting equipment. All firearms are regulated and during last decades conditions to get license have become quite strict. You have to show that your hobby is active and you really need and are able to handle safely the gun you want to buy. Few decades ago practically anyone without severe mental problems or violent criminal record could get easily license for usual hunting weapons (like shotguns or bolt action rifles up to 7.62 mm) or small caliber sport shooting weapons (like .22 LR rifles, pistols or revolvers).

 

 

5 hours ago, DDE said:

30th SpaceWing's newest Military Working Horse

I hope they understand that military space horse without fully working EVA uniform is ridicuous.

 

[DDE]

5 minutes ago, Hannu2 said:

I hope they understand that military space horse without fully working EVA uniform is ridicuous.

Implying that USSF has any EVA kit in the first place.