Bloomberg insight article into studio transition from Star Theory to Intercept Games

[Jacke]

4 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

i don't believe i'm biased here. Yes, i do very much dislike Take-Two....but it's for legit reasons. I was also VERY skeptical of Star Theory.....as the company they USED to be, didn't really have all that many accomplishments.. While i really did like Monday Night Combat, i never really thought the company that spawned that fun little diversion, was the right choice to build the successor to KSP. So i guess you could say i'm not really a fan of either party, which would mean i'm not really biased..

That, aside, We have the information in the article on one side, and we have our knowledge of how Take-Two operates, and the kind of scummy stuff they do.. The math is pretty simple here.

I'm more the middle ground on this KSP 2 case, but....

Take 2 has had over 6 months to put out a statement on this transition.  They didn't.  They wanted it to remain quiet.  That was foolish of them.

Let's see what Take 2 has to say for themselves when they do.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jacke

[Numberyellow]

Just now, Jacke said:

I'm more the middle ground, but....

Take 2 has had over 6 months to put out a statement on this transition.  They didn't.  They wanted it to remain quiet.  That was foolish of them.

Let's see what Take 2 has to say for themselves when they do.

This kind of reminds me of that time that NORDVPN had that intrusion in to their network, due to lousy security at one of the datacenters they were renting from. The intruder managed to infiltrate the system, and intercept client data. Nord hid the whole affair from their customers for nearly 2 years. Finally, someone in the company spills the beans, and then Nord lies, and says that no client data was intercepted....a few days later, the customer data that wasn't intercepted was dumped to a pastebin for everyone to see. Had it not been for that whistleblower in the company, nobody would have ever even known that any of this had happened. to this day, it still floors me that anyone would shill for Nord.

[bitzoid]

This is so disgusting I almost threw up when I heard of it.

What is even worse is that people have the naivety to believe that this is in any way a good thing. Just have a look at the horribly dismembered Dead Space series. That is what big publishers do to niche / indie projects.

I was anticipating KSP2 more than literally any game before (yes, including HL2:EP3). Now? I'm not even sure I'd even buy it in a sale.

[Jacke]

1 minute ago, Numberyellow said:

[ NordVPN fscks up big time and lies and gets caught in the lie ] to this day, it still floors me that anyone would shill for Nord.

Existing contracts.  Needing the business.  Justifies it to themselves with whatever mental Klein bottles they need, despite the argument being a bit...weak.  Shear ignorance too.

I'd still rate NordVPN with a real jaundiced eye when considering a VPN.  And somehow the statement that "they're in Panama who doesn't have laws about keeping records, so they don't...." doesn't assure me that much.

And Take 2, the clock is ticking.  I'm not a high-priced crisis PR consultant and I don't play one on television, but I think any of them basically say get a statement right sooner and get it out consistently.  Have that one for free.  Also, not everyone will forget about this come Fall 2021 or whenever and will remind us about all this.

[shdwlrd]

1 hour ago, Numberyellow said:

I've got plenty of other reasons to despise Take-Two, and not want to give them my money. This is just the latest in a long list. And in case you're wondering, no, i'm not one of those "corporations are evil" types. If i dislike a company, it's because they've done something genuinely lousy.

Every large company has a past evil or few. What TTI/PD did was rather generous when it comes to this type of situation. (What I mean is this; they didn't have to offer anyone at Star Theory a position at the new studio after pulling KSP2 from them. They could have replaced all personnel working on KSP2. And yes, I do realize it was financially motivated, but it didn't have to be done.) If you have read the WSJ long enough, you would realize this is minor evil compared to other acts that other corporations have pulled in the past. 

Yes, it's sad that Star Theory had to close it doors. It sucks that the remaining staff was left without work and I feel for the people that still may be out of work.

The corporate world is nasty, dirty place where every nicety is vailed in corporate interests. Even the truly good companies will have to something distasteful at times to survive.

At the end of the day, it's just business as usual.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

EA bought and dissolved Westwood in the late 90's, Bethesda bought and licensed FO (The name, not even any of the IP) back to Obsidian/Interplay in the 2000's, Bioware was bought by EA and now is the same company in name only after all the major staff jumped ship during or after ME3

When will people learn that if you make a deal with the devil that you'll get burned?

Aside from that; this makes me suspicious that KSP2 is in Development hell due to much of the surrounding chaos. So it'll be interesting to see further developments, and i will allow KSP2 to stand or fall on it's own Merits.

[Superfluous J]

43 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

unless you're saying the article is bunk

I won't go so far to say it's bunk, but it's for sure one-sided. And it was not written to divulge information, but to garner clicks and ad views.

Like every news article written in the past decade or two.

[Numberyellow]

1 hour ago, shdwlrd said:

Every large company has a past evil or few. What TTI/PD did was rather generous when it comes to this type of situation. (What I mean is this; they didn't have to offer anyone at Star Theory a position at the new studio after pulling KSP2 from them. They could have replaced all personnel working on KSP2. And yes, I do realize it was financially motivated, but it didn't have to be done.) If you have read the WSJ long enough, you would realize this is minor evil compared to other acts that other corporations have pulled in the past. 

Yes, it's sad that Star Theory had to close it doors. It sucks that the remaining staff was left without work and I feel for the people that still may be out of work.

The corporate world is nasty, dirty place where every nicety is vailed in corporate interests. Even the truly good companies will have to something distasteful at times to survive.

At the end of the day, it's just business as usual.

except it's not generosity.... that's like putting an injured field tech on desk duty, and acting like you're doing them a favor... Labor law says you can't get rid of them because they're injured, so you HAVE to put them somewhere. They wanted to buy Star Theory, Star Theory wasn't willing to sell on Take-Two's terms. so they pulled the contract, poached the staff, and got everything they wanted, without having to make any compromises. Assigning a new team to the project wouldn't have been a viable option, as it would have resulted in lost development time while the new team got up to speed, and it probably would have resulted in a product that was substantially different from what's currently being worked on.

They wanted the company, and that's essentially what they got, because a company is nothing, without staff. It was a scummy thing to do, and trying to characterize it as anything else is just plain ignorance and naivete.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Numberyellow

[Superfluous J]

37 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

my wife's brother has a small child that goes to kindergarten, and one of the kids in his classroom is the niece of the brother-in-law of Nate Simpson's landscaper

Oh man and I know you on a forum! So Nate, what does that make us?

[Superfluous J]

35 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Take 2 has had over 6 months to put out a statement on this transition.  They didn't.  They wanted it to remain quiet.

They very likely legally couldn't. Their fiscal year was ending and there is a period where you can not legally (like, breaking federal laws and going to prison "not legally") discuss internal company affairs.

[Numberyellow]

1 minute ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

EA bought and dissolved Westwood in the late 90's, Bethesda bought and licensed FO (The name, not even any of the IP) back to Obsidian/Interplay in the 2000's, Bioware was bought by EA and now is the same company in name only after all the major staff jumped ship during or after ME3

When will people learn that if you make a deal with the devil that you'll get burned?

Aside from that; this makes me suspicious that KSP2 is in Development hell due to much of the surrounding chaos. So it'll be interesting to see further developments, and i will allow KSP2 to stand or fall on it's own Merits.

Actually, Westwood was dissolved in '03, after the release of "C&C: Renegade", and "Earth and Beyond". Also i thought all the major staff were working on Bioware's OTHER stunning failure: "Anthem".

You're right about making deals with the devil though.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

3 minutes ago, Numberyellow said:

Actually, Westwood was dissolved in '03, after the release of "C&C: Renegade", and "Earth and Beyond". Also i thought all the major staff were working on Bioware's OTHER stunning failure: "Anthem".

You're right about making deals with the devil though.

I had a feeling i messed up the timeline there; oh well.

But nah; the people who wrote and made the DA and ME series orignally are gone. All the staff working at Bioware now are new hires or unrelated now.

Spoiler

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/bioware-founders-retire/1100-6396699/

(Article doesn't mention the Lead Writers, but they jumped soon before or after the Founders left in 2012)

Edited June 4, 2020 by Incarnation of Chaos

[Jacke]

19 minutes ago, shdwlrd said:

The corporate world is nasty, dirty place where every nicety is vailed in corporate interests. Even the truly good companies will have to something distasteful at times to survive.

At the end of the day, it's just business as usual.

And it'll stay that wrong way if this is tolerated.

 

5 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

They very likely legally couldn't. Their fiscal year was ending and there is a period where you can not legally (like, breaking federal laws and going to prison "not legally") discuss internal company affairs.

That's an excellent point I'd not thought about.

But now it's past their fiscal year end.   Hmmm, think that was end of March.  So, December-January, is that too close?

No matter, it's public knowledge now.  Wonder how long it'll be before Take 2 puts out a statement.  How about saying whether they'll stand by these promises, as another forum user asked.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jacke

[Numberyellow]

1 minute ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

I had a feeling i messed up the timeline there; oh well.

But nah; the people who wrote and made the DA and ME series orignally are gone. All the staff working at Bioware now are new hires or unrelated now.

  Hide contents

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/bioware-founders-retire/1100-6396699/

(Article doesn't mention the Lead Writers, but they jumped soon before or after the Founders left in 2012)

ahh, ok. I'm not as "into" bioware as i'm into Westwood. All i know is that Westwood made great games, and they got shafted. and Bioware USED to make good games, and then totally ruined the ME franchise, in favor of a poorly-crafted Destiny clone....and then both games flopped.

[Superfluous J]

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

Wonder how long it'll be before Take 2 puts out a statement.

I do as well, and look forward to it.

One thing I'm sure of: There are a lot of people who won't believe a word of it. I'll personally be skeptical, like I am of the Bloomberg article.

[Gargamel]

36 minutes ago, bitzoid said:

That is what big publishers do to niche / indie projects.

The new studio is remaining under the Private Division label, which is their indie studio department.  Like I said in my previous post, considering who and what they acquired, it's rather encouraging for the prospects of having KSP2 be what it should be. 

But you are right, there is a history of big studios (in any media, just not software) taking the little pet project and making it ugly. 

Only time will tell.

[Incarnation of Chaos]

Just now, Numberyellow said:

ahh, ok. I'm not as "into" bioware as i'm into Westwood. All i know is that Westwood made great games, and they got shafted. and Bioware USED to make good games, and then totally ruined the ME franchise, in favor of a poorly-crafted Destiny clone....and then both games flopped.

Yeah....

I have to admit my ignorance is because my first introduction to the series was C&C ZH, but i knew Westwood got the raw end of the deal even then.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, bitzoid said:

This is so disgusting I almost threw up when I heard of it.

What is even worse is that people have the naivety to believe that this is in any way a good thing. Just have a look at the horribly dismembered Dead Space series. That is what big publishers do to niche / indie projects.

I was anticipating KSP2 more than literally any game before (yes, including HL2:EP3). Now? I'm not even sure I'd even buy it in a sale.

KSP2 was never supposed to be  "niche indie project", that's KSP1, KSP2 is meant to be the 60€ AA version backed by an actual publisher and developed by more experienced devs.

T2 bought the IP in 2017 and then contracted Star.Theory to make the game.

Now, for some reason we don't know, we discover that things did not go well between S.T and Private Division and this happened.

We alredy knew that a new, internal, studio was working on KSP2 and that some of the guys from S.T are now part of this studio, we just didn't know how this happened (actually we still don't know).

The only news here is that whatever happened apparently didn't happen on the most amicable terms  (chances of it being the case were really low).

 

That's the thing, nobody is saying that this a good thing, just most of it is not news at all.

The game being owned by a evil corporate publisher? That's 2017.

Something's wrong they've gone silent? December 2019.

A new studio being involved?  February.

Intercept Games? Almost a week ago.

 

 

[Incarnation of Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Master39 said:

KSP2 was never supposed to be  "niche indie project", that's KSP1, KSP2 is meant to be the 60€ AA version backed by an actual publisher and developed by more experienced devs.

T2 bought the IP in 2017 and then contracted Star.Theory to make the game.

Now, for some reason we don't know, we discover that things did not go well between S.T and Private Division and this happened.

We alredy knew that a new, internal, studio was working on KSP2 and that some of the guys from S.T are now part of this studio, we just didn't know how this happened (actually we still don't know).

The only news here is that whatever happened apparently didn't happen on the most amicable terms  (chances of it being the case were really low).

 

That's the thing, nobody is saying that this a good thing, just most of it is not news at all.

The game being owned by a evil corporate publisher? That's 2017.

Something's wrong they've gone silent? December 2019.

A new studio being involved?  February.

Intercept Games? Almost a week ago.

 

 

Yep; pretty much my thoughts about it in a nutshell here. Despite my comments earlier it wasn't like something like this wasn't in the makings anyway from what we could tell, and now we know more about why Star.theory went dark for months in 2019.

So really it's just a piece we should take as requiring extra caution down the road, and not much else. But that won't stop people from thinking their petitions mean something and making them anyway xD

[James M]

11 minutes ago, Incarnation of Chaos said:

Yep; pretty much my thoughts about it in a nutshell here. Despite my comments earlier it wasn't like something like this wasn't in the makings anyway from what we could tell, and now we know more about why Star.theory went dark for months in 2019.

So really it's just a piece we should take as requiring extra caution down the road, and not much else. But that won't stop people from thinking their petitions mean something and making them anyway xD

You can either speak up against the issue or not buy the game at all when game developments go south. Which would you prefer? To have the same problems today as tomorrow? Or to have a chance at development processes being improved across the board  for all development studios? I don't think a petition is a bad idea. A little preemptive as of right now? Sure, maybe. We do have only a small amount of one sided information. BUT, We do have a LONG history of large game publishing corporations like T2 making moves like these for their own personal gain. No? So as to which side I believe is more innocent? More than likely the indie game developers enthusiastic about building their dream game.

[m4v]

36 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I'll personally be skeptical, like I am of the Bloomberg article.

It was written by Jason Schreier, the same guy that got the news about what went wrong with Anthem . Like the only guy I know that does real journalism about games, I think that the chances of Schreier making stuff up and TakeTwo behaving in good faith are like... nil.

Edited June 4, 2020 by m4v

[Thalamask]

Dear T2.

Screw you.

I will not be buying KSP 2, and it has been shifted from my Wishlist to my Ignore bin (which will shortly include everything else you publish).

Well done.

/facepalm

Edited June 4, 2020 by Thalamask

[HvP]

1 hour ago, justspace103 said:

I agree with @ShadowZone with how we should approach this trasition of management, we dont know all the full details yet. 

But what i will say is this: I had the lovely chance of meeting Nate Simpson, creative director, at PAX east this past March. For the time we talked, we shared our love of the original game, and it was amazing to see his undisputed dedication to KSP2 and making it right for the community. Based on my interaction with him, he clearly cares about the game alot. Which is why i believe, like others have said, that if Nate made that jump to Intercept "immediately" as the article says, it must have been for a very good reason and it must have been for the good of KSP2, not to hinder it or sell it out for a large salary. its clea that this is an amazing passion project for many of the developers, and i actually concier it comforting that T2 wentht through the effort to hire the people that ACTUALLY care about the game. after all, they could have just hired an entirely new team without all the trouble.

I understand why this situation is upseting, but I believe, even if we dont know specifically, that this action may have been necessary for the salvation and continuing development of the KSP2 that the community wants.

I don't know Nate Simpson. I've seen exactly two videos with him speaking about the development of KSP2. I willing to accept that he's a passionate fan of Kerbal Space Program and did what he thought was best for the game's development. I am not insinuating that he is a greedy person, nor that he or anyone else who joined Take-Two Interactive's new development team are bad actors.

However, all of us discussing this topic here on this forum I would also consider passionate fans of KSP who want whats best for the game's development. And yet we seem to have considerably different thresholds for what constitutes acceptable business practices in this situation. Nate obviously has more in depth first-hand knowledge of what went down, but I doubt that he and I, or a large number of other passionate fans of KSP would all agree to do the same thing under the same circumstances.

And obviously not - because several team members at Star Theory chose not to move to Take-Two.

Edited June 4, 2020 by HvP

[Keithv708]

Remember we still have Kerbal space program to play

[Numberyellow]

2 minutes ago, Keithv708 said:

Remember we still have Kerbal space program to play

Right up until Take-Two finds some scummy way to take it away from us.