Corporate Ethics (An open letter)

[Raptor9]

My open letter to the KSP community (developers and players):

I will not take part in any boycott of any product based on conjecture and emotion in lieu of facts and reason.

I will evaluate KSP 2 when it becomes available for purchase, and if I determine it is worth the money that it's being priced at, I will purchase it and play to my heart's content.

If I determine KSP 2 is not something I wish to purchase, I will move on with my life.

I will not criticize, degrade, attack, or demean anyone that reaches a different conclusion as to whether or not to purchase KSP 2, or their reasons for their decision.

[Pthigrivi]

Isn't unpaid overtime against the law?

[James M]

3 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Isn't unpaid overtime against the law?

Yes. The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) is the federal law which requires employers to pay one and a half times your normal hourly wage for all overtime hours.

Thanks google. 

10 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

My open letter to the KSP community (developers and players):

I will not take part in any boycott of any product based on conjecture and emotion in lieu of facts and reason.

I will evaluate KSP 2 when it becomes available for purchase, and if I determine it is worth the money that it's being priced at, I will purchase it and play to my heart's content.

If I determine KSP 2 is not something I wish to purchase, I will move on with my life.

I will not criticize, degrade, attack, or demean anyone that reaches a different conclusion as to whether or not to purchase KSP 2, or their reasons for their decision.

Raptor <3 Love your crafts btw. Big fan. Just had to say this in response...

In Tetris, though, the method fails completely. It seeks out the easiest path to a higher score, which is laying bricks on top of one another randomly. Then, when the screen fills up, the AI pauses the game. As soon as it unpauses, it'll lose -- as Murphy says, "the only way to the win the game is not to play".

A quote from (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/super-mario-solved) this article speaking about an AI that refused to "Lose" at Tetris because of it's programming. When I see people say things like "We'll just see what happens later." This is what I think of. 

I still respect what you mean though. Why take the risk of speaking out if it isn't necessary, right? 

 

[SOXBLOX]

Aha. That absolutely demolished the only thing in this petition maybe relevant to ethics. Thx, Pthigrivi and James M!

 

Raptor9 I'd sign that!  I love your stuff on KerbalX, btw.

[James M]

4 minutes ago, SOXBLOX said:

Aha. That absolutely demolished the only thing in this petition maybe relevant to ethics. Thx, Pthigrivi and James M!

 

Raptor9 I'd sign that!  I love your stuff on KerbalX, btw.

So does ethics only apply to how an employer treats it's employees and not to how it treats it's customers? 

[SOXBLOX]

No. This petition did, though.

 

[James M]

1 minute ago, SOXBLOX said:

No. This petition did, though.

 

Ahem. Educate me? I guess I'm not seeing what you are here. Did what?

(i'm not trying to be rude or anything. I would just rather be more knowledgeable than less. Even if it costs my pride.) 

Edited June 4, 2020 by James M

[Superfluous J]

31 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Isn't unpaid overtime against the law?

Yes. So is firing employees for whistle-blowing unpaid overtime, but both of those things happen.

If either of those things is a fear for you personally, you should probably speak to your OSHA representative. If you fear for either of those on behalf of another person you don't know, you should probably keep your nose out of their business. Outside of suggesting they speak to their OSHA representative.

[James M]

9 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Yes. So is firing employees for whistle-blowing unpaid overtime, but both of those things happen.

If either of those things is a fear for you personally, you should probably speak to your OSHA representative. If you fear for either of those on behalf of another person you don't know, you should probably keep your nose out of their business. Outside of suggesting they speak to their OSHA representative.

I'll keep that in mind in the future. Thank you. 

[Asharad]

No thanks, OP.

[AlamoVampire]

If I am understanding all of this correctly, this entire situation took place some 5 or 6 months ago. I am not in the industry so I will not venture into any speculation. 
 

I feel sorry for those who got hurt by what happened, but, at the end of the day I do not have nor will I ever have all the facts regarding what and why it happened. Ethically speaking it would be unethical of me the consumer to make a knee jerk reaction and say I wont buy KSP2 because of x, y or z reasons. Everything I learned of KSP2 personally came well into the current pandemic and frankly, the product itself looks good so far. To be fair I have played my fair share of games by take two, and if in the end they bring a compelling and good game to market, then, in honor of the folks who started the work, namely Star Theory, I would be a willing consumer. Forget not where KSP2 started.

 

225006032020

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Edited June 4, 2020 by AlamoVampire

[Meecrob]

1 hour ago, James M said:

So ST doesn't initially agree to what you demand?

The problem is that its easy to hate Take 2, but we are going on info from an article (one) about what ex-employees of one side of this issue said. Remember, we all collectively clenched our butt cheeks when it was announced that Star Theory was to develop KSP 2. "But they do ports to console and mobile games!"

Edited June 4, 2020 by Meecrob

[Jarin]

2 hours ago, James M said:

Yes. The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) is the federal law which requires employers to pay one and a half times your normal hourly wage for all overtime hours.

Thanks google.

Gutted by defining would-be "employees" as "contractors" instead, or "salaried, non-hourly". There's holes in the FLSA you could fly a fleet of Saturn Vs through.

[James M]

1 minute ago, Jarin said:

Gutted by defining would-be "employees" as "contractors" instead, or "salaried, non-hourly". There's holes in the FLSA you could fly a fleet of Saturn Vs through.

Lol So these Not - Star Theory developers are now "contracted"? Like in a sense of they aren't being paid hourly? If that is what you mean, is that normal?

[Jarin]

Just now, James M said:

Lol So these Not - Star Theory developers are now "contracted"? Like in a sense of they aren't being paid hourly? If that is what you mean, is that normal?

Normal for US companies to avoid paying overtime and benefits to their workers any way they think they can get away with? Yes. Is that the case here? Who knows, we aren't privy to the contracts the developers have with T2. We didn't even know what happened until the Bloomberg article.

[kerbiloid]

The petition sounds like GNU/KSP.

Also it should include "No KSP for Windows or other proprietary platform."

Btw, does Stallman play KSP? It's his chance.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, James M said:

Also, I'm not saying I agree 100% flawlessly with every word that the petition says verbatim. I am however agreeing that something needs to be said/done.

If you signed it you stated that you will boycott the game if those 6 points are not met, that's what signing means.

7 hours ago, James M said:

If you don't like a part of the petition, but you feel it's not a terrible decision, then why not input some constructive inputs/changes rather than question those who support proactive movement? 

That's literally the first reply to this topic, where point per point i gave my reasons of why I can't sign this petition and what the problems are, this was the reply:

13 hours ago, mattihase said:

Good to hear you're not interested in attempting to stand in support of bad things not happening to the people making your fancy new toy. How very thoughtful of your. 

 

So, answer my question, will you boycott the game if they put some dumb meaningless preorder-bonus (old MK1 Pod texture for "the veterans" of KSP1) or if they implement a DRM/anticheat on the multiplayer module?

Even if the game is the sequel we all dream of and nobody has problems with those particular things?

Because that's what you signed for, not some generic letter against bad business practices, but an ultimatum asking for completely unrelated things, but I have no doubts that most people signed the "Petition against T2" without even reading the thing and realizing this.

 

[kerbiloid]

If they add DRM, it will force me not to avoid the game, but to search for a DRMless version from any dealer.

(Just in case: I've bought on steam KSP1+both DLC and am going to officially buy KSP2 if they release it. But DRM would complicate this simple scheme)

Edited June 4, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Keithv708]

I will gladly sign it.

[ShakeNBake]

Signed, but I’m already pretty much gone. Indie developers I can convince myself that they are decent and I can bring myself to support them. Large corporations, I simply cannot. That’s just my own bizarre ethics and I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, just explaining myself.

As far as what may be “legal” in business practices; everything is legal if the laws aren’t enforced. I’ve worked for 4 large corporations in 4 very different industries and all of them exploited their employees to the max. I worked overtime at 3 and never got paid for it. I got fired from 2 because of my seizures. Sure, those things might be technically illegal, but if you don’t have the resources to, not just lawyer up, but out-lawyer the corporation, you’re SOL.

[Pthigrivi]

10 hours ago, Jarin said:

Gutted by defining would-be "employees" as "contractors" instead, or "salaried, non-hourly". There's holes in the FLSA you could fly a fleet of Saturn Vs through.

I know in my state we have regs to prevent this kind of thing. I believe NY does too though Im less familiar with the specifics. There have been a bunch of state overhauls in the last few years to crack down on stuff like this. The larger point being if developers are skirting labor laws they've bigger problems than a little indie-boycott. I've dealt with cruch in my industry as well (architectural design) but it was always my choice to work long hours and I was happy to make the time and half. 

[Guest]

Has someone actually read this "open letter" or just the title and then opened the link to sign it?

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Guest

[Jarin]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

I know in my state we have regs to prevent this kind of thing. I believe NY does too though Im less familiar with the specifics. There have been a bunch of state overhauls in the last few years to crack down on stuff like this. The larger point being if developers are skirting labor laws they've bigger problems than a little indie-boycott. I've dealt with cruch in my industry as well (architectural design) but it was always my choice to work long hours and I was happy to make the time and half. 

Do we know where Intercept is based?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

I know in my state we have regs to prevent this kind of thing. I believe NY does too though Im less familiar with the specifics. There have been a bunch of state overhauls in the last few years to crack down on stuff like this. 

That's when employees receive the "sorry, we're moving to another state for business reasons, you can move with us, or start updating your CVs (oh, and BTW, if you quit we'll note your lack of mobility)" e-mails. It's an ongoing battle between regulators and corporations, and the regulators are generally losing the few times they actually try to fight it. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if what T2 did wasn't 100% in compliance with all the relevant laws, but good luck trying to enforce that. 

[Pthigrivi]

1 minute ago, Dragon01 said:

That's when employees receive the "sorry, we're moving to another state for business reasons, you can move with us, or start updating your CVs (oh, and BTW, if you quit we'll note your lack of mobility)" e-mails. It's an ongoing battle between regulators and corporations, and the regulators are generally losing the few times they actually try to fight it. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if what T2 did wasn't 100% in compliance with all the relevant laws, but good luck trying to enforce that. 

Word. I work for a super small company who a) is well run and cares about its employees and b) is too small to get bogged down in legal fights with the DOL. Im sure things are different at a bigger scale, but generally speaking reputation matters and if you're trying to attract and retain good people its always best to treat folks with respect.