The Return of Kerbal Submarine Program

[Lilithvia]

One of the fun things back in the day was building a submarine in the SPH, driving it to the beaches surrounding KSC, gently lowering it into the water, and exploring the depths of Kerbin's oceans. Squad didn't expect this, and reacted the wrong way, releasing a patch NOT endorsing this, but to keep players from engaging in this activity, adding pressure values to each and every part, that, when exceeded, the game just deletes the part. This was the wrong move, especially with the intent Squad had with the patch. 

In KSP2, can we, instead of this reactionary "oh this was unintended, fun detected, removing" typical of a Activision Blizzard game, can we instead get Kerbal Submarine Program restored by adding parts and such specifically for aquatic activites, from exploratory submarines, to entire underwater colonies?

[Commodore_32]

Pretty good idea, i had never tought that Squad would destroy the dreams of submarines.

[Daniel Prates]

They should have been smarter and released half a dozen parts to intentionally allow underwater exploration. 

Some mods allow for it but its just not ... it does not feel right - though I praise all the modders that attempted at creating sub parts. 

All it took from the developer was a couple underwater electrical engines, a coherent ballast system and a better notion of part strength under pressure. It really doesn't seem too much. I bet it was harder to develop decent wheel mechanics (which even today aren't perfect if you ask me).

[shdwlrd]

A handful of stock submersible parts would be nice. But it's not something I would expect on day one.

[KerikBalm]

7 hours ago, Lilithvia said:

One of the fun things back in the day was building a submarine in the SPH, driving it to the beaches surrounding KSC, gently lowering it into the water, and exploring the depths of Kerbin's oceans.

And its still one of the fun things now.

Before Breaking ground, subs had to use jet engines, and were restricted to Kerbin and Laythe (plus mod worlds with O2 atmospheres and oceans, so not Tekto), but not Eve.

Spoiler

Laythe:

After breaking ground, you could have subs that use electric power, and thus their buoyancy doesn't change, and they work on Eve:

(I wish I had installed scatterer for these images)

Spoiler

So, in my opinion, with the latest DLC, they've made submarines *more* viable without any use of mods, so I'm going to have to reject many of your assertions.

Quote

Squad didn't expect this, and reacted the wrong way, releasing a patch NOT endorsing this, but to keep players from engaging in this activity, adding pressure values to each and every part, that, when exceeded, the game just deletes the part. This was the wrong move, especially with the intent Squad had with the patch. 

How do you know the intent that squad had? If that was their intent, why is there a simple option to turn off part pressure limits?

Why can you still make submarines, even if they have a depth limit?

Maybe it was to add some realism, and have craft have a crush depth, more intended to get players to avoid ridiculously high dynamic pressures, or to add a crush depth to Jool?

Quote

In KSP2, can we, instead of this reactionary "oh this was unintended, fun detected, removing" typical of a Activision Blizzard game, can we instead get Kerbal Submarine Program restored by adding parts and such specifically for aquatic activites, from exploratory submarines, to entire underwater colonies?

I would very much like underwater colonies to be possible. Exploratory submarines are already possible, but dedicated parts would be nice.

[afafsa]

Solid idea. If it isn't in the base game, that sounds like something that would make for a good expansion.

[Lilithvia]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:47 AM, KerikBalm said:

And its still one of the fun things now.

Before Breaking ground, subs had to use jet engines, and were restricted to Kerbin and Laythe (plus mod worlds with O2 atmospheres and oceans, so not Tekto), but not Eve.

  Reveal hidden contents

Laythe:

After breaking ground, you could have subs that use electric power, and thus their buoyancy doesn't change, and they work on Eve:

(I wish I had installed scatterer for these images)

  Reveal hidden contents

So, in my opinion, with the latest DLC, they've made submarines *more* viable without any use of mods, so I'm going to have to reject many of your assertions.

How do you know the intent that squad had? If that was their intent, why is there a simple option to turn off part pressure limits?

Why can you still make submarines, even if they have a depth limit?

Maybe it was to add some realism, and have craft have a crush depth, more intended to get players to avoid ridiculously high dynamic pressures, or to add a crush depth to Jool?

I would very much like underwater colonies to be possible. Exploratory submarines are already possible, but dedicated parts would be nice.

A lot of fallacies in your post.
There's like nothing for ballast unless you rig something using ore, and we know the intent because the pressures patch came at a similar time to between Scott Manley making air valve ramjet engines and intake air being patched as a resource so that it couldn't be drained, except a very public minority were doing it, and not just our favorite astronomer turned KSP player.
And crush depth was already a thing for Jool, Sun, etc.

[KerikBalm]

4 hours ago, Lilithvia said:

A lot of fallacies in your post.
There's like nothing for ballast unless you rig something using ore, and we know the intent because the pressures patch came at a similar time to between Scott Manley making air valve ramjet engines and intake air being patched as a resource so that it couldn't be drained, except a very public minority were doing it, and not just our favorite astronomer turned KSP player.
And crush depth was already a thing for Jool, Sun, etc.

There are no fallacies in my post, but your reply has quite a few.

#1) yes, there is no dedicated ballast parts, but that has been that way from the beginning, I don't know why you bring it up, it does nothing to support the assertion that squad did things "to keep players from engaging in this activity"

#2) I don't follow Manley so closely, what does an "air valve ramjet" have to do with submarines? 

#3) don't you mean that it couldn't be stored, not drained? The primary reason for that, if I had to guess, was to stop people from storing intake air, and using jets in space. (you used to be able to get into a stable orbit using only jets by doing this).

#4) iirc, it wasn't a crush depth, so much as a kraken attack depth, which is a different thing

#5) you have not addressed the fact that they give you an option to turn off pressure limits, so they intentionally still allow it.

[jimmymcgoochie]

It's a space game, about space. Just because you can stick the parts together and make a submarine, doesn't mean that it should be actively supported any more than there should be special parts added to make a giant trebuchet, a Sherman tank or the Flying Scotsman locomotive.

Submarines are still entirely possible in KSP using stock parts and there are multiple mods that add specialised submarine parts into the game. Even on Laythe, there's still enough land to build substantial bases and rather than trying to mine stuff underwater it would be easier to just get it from somewhere else instead so I don't see the point in adding even floating bases to KSP2, never mind submerged ones.

[Guest]

I have part pressure limits on and I build submarines sometimes. What was the problem again?

[betaking]

On 6/7/2020 at 9:41 AM, jimmymcgoochie said:

It's a space game, about space. Just because you can stick the parts together and make a submarine, doesn't mean that it should be actively supported any more than there should be special parts added to make a giant trebuchet, a Sherman tank or the Flying Scotsman locomotive.

Submarines are still entirely possible in KSP using stock parts and there are multiple mods that add specialised submarine parts into the game. Even on Laythe, there's still enough land to build substantial bases and rather than trying to mine stuff underwater it would be easier to just get it from somewhere else instead so I don't see the point in adding even floating bases to KSP2, never mind submerged ones.

I Think wanting submarines is actually valid, even if it's reserved for an expansion.

Especially since KSP2 is going to be concerned with colonization having seagoing vessels, or the ability to build aquatic infrastructure is an important aspect, by which I mean both surface and submersibles.

[linuxgurugamer]

There needs to be something to do underwater that you can't do elsewhere.  What about a needed resource that is very rare above ground, but more plentiful underwater?

[betaking]

22 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

There needs to be something to do underwater that you can't do elsewhere.  What about a needed resource that is very rare above ground, but more plentiful underwater?

various mineral and rare earth salts, hydrothermic vents, use as a heatsink for various high-temperature reactors.

 radiators work much better if they're underwater don't they? 

bioluminescent-squid/bioluminescent-fried-calamari.

honestly the thought of having a planet/moon in game like Europa and not being able to build a submarine to explore its subsurface ocean seems kind of incomplete.

[linuxgurugamer]

On 6/25/2020 at 12:28 PM, betaking said:

various mineral and rare earth salts, hydrothermic vents, use as a heatsink for various high-temperature reactors.

 radiators work much better if they're underwater don't they? 

bioluminescent-squid/bioluminescent-fried-calamari.

honestly the thought of having a planet/moon in game like Europa and not being able to build a submarine to explore its subsurface ocean seems kind of incomplete.

I absolutely agree.  The one problem with KSP is the lack of a story framework for people who want long-term goals.  That's why so many mods are focused on contracts, colonication, etc

But don't get me wrong:  The greatest strength of KSP is the lack of a story framework!  Lets people who like sandbox do what they want.

Along these lines, having a number of things underwater to do/find/see/etc would be a big boost to the KSP Submarine program, without the need for a proper story framework.

[pandaman]

Yes, KSP is fundamentally about flying spaceships.

Exploring the diverse worlds we fly to is also a huge part of the game, and exploring the oceans on them is just as much a part of that as exploring the dry bits.

So, parts and game mechanics to help us explore and things to find both on and under those oceans, rivers and lakes is certainly within the scope of the game.  And it would add extra challenges and stuff to do as well.

We humans are planning to explore the oceans we discover within our own solar system, we just haven't done it yet - it's hard.  So no way it is out of place in KSP imho.

[linuxgurugamer]

[EchoLima]

I don't see why ocean travel shouldn't be part of planetary exploration. There's even a plan in IRL to explore Titan's lakes, not to mention all the deep sea research done on Earth. Most of us would agree that land travel, whether by rover or walking, and air travel, by plane or jetpack, are important parts of KSP, and ocean travel should be treated no differently. 

[Bej Kerman]

All you have to do is disable max pressure in the difficulty settings.

[pandaman]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

All you have to do is disable max pressure in the difficulty settings.

That is assuming KSP2 has that option.  Which we don't know yet.  My guess is it will, or an equivalent.

But a few 'proper' submarine parts like ballast tanks, high pressure cabins and underwater props would not be out if place.  And some would no doubt come in handy for 'Jool diving' too.

[swjr-swis]

8 hours ago, pandaman said:

We humans are planning to explore the oceans we discover within our own solar system, we just haven't done it yet

Except Europa. Attempt no landings there.

[probe137]

On 6/26/2020 at 2:28 AM, betaking said:

bioluminescent-squid/bioluminescent-fried-calamari.

That's a good idea and other types of sealife like the tiny squid thing from the video 'Kerbal Science' could be added and experiments on them could be added as well.

Edited October 10, 2020 by probe137