Issues with Eve Rover

[Vezbot]

So I have an issue with landing a rover on Eve. There are a bunch of stranded kerbals on the surface of Eve, basically anything that I land on Eve is doomed in that purple bottomless pit where nothing can return from, because I have no crafts currently suitable to lift kerbals to Eve orbit. I decided to build a rover to mount on top of the Saurus VI rocket to send to Eve. So far the construction went well, or so I thought. When the rover reached Eve, I quickly noticed after detaching the rover from the main ship to pilot down to the kerbals, that I couldn't do my deorbit burn with the atomic engine. I put a decoupler between the engine and the main body of the rover, and the main body was a fuel tank. I didn't run a fuel line to the atomic engine so I couldn't fire the engine, and it would have been heavy on the front, due to the center of mass mainly balanced by the atomic engine and the heat shield that was supposed to decouple after a successful descent. I also noticed after detaching the atomic engine, the structure connecting the left wheels came off. So the rover lost half it's wheels. I gave up and went with it, I made my descent with the defunct atomic engine attached to the back of the rover and after burning off all the orbital velocity at 62 km above the ground, the rover altitude dipped to 50 km, where the aerodynamic forces pushed the rover away from facing the prograde direction. This caused the heat shield to no longer be in the front and exposed the rover to the heat and blew it up. I tried it over and over again to no success. I closed the game and went to bed.

The next time I got on I kept the rover in orbit and made it into a space station. Then I redesigned my much bigger Mun rover which is a hundred times more stable and reliable then the rover I sent to Eve previously. This is when I used the 10 meter heat shield for the first time. I connected the heat shield to the front of the rover and sent it to Eve at the next Eve launch window. This time there were no design flaws and I thought it would survive entry. But the problem with aerodynamics repeated, this time the heat shield is pushed out of the prograde direction at much higher altitudes, anywhere below 70 km. This problem persisted just like last time, and the heat shield always moves and then turns, exposing and destroying everything behind it. 

The heat shield is 10 meters wide and the one previously is 3.5 meters wide, but none of the heat shields remain stable when crossing a certain point in eves atmosphere. 

3.5 meter turns away from prograde at <60 km

10 meter heat shield turns from prograde at <70 km, destroying the craft.

And both crafts need to drop below 45 km to slow down enough for thermal issues to no longer be a problem.

Please help.

 

[Fierce Wolf]

The trick to land on Eve are 2 of the inflatable shields, one on the front, and one of the back, both pointing in the same direction! The first one is for shielding, the second for aerodynamic balance. Works like a charm. The difficult part is getting rid of them midflight...they like to crash into the vessel.

 

>000->

 

[Vezbot]

9 hours ago, Fierce Wolf said:

The trick to land on Eve are 2 of the inflatable shields, one on the front, and one of the back, both pointing in the same direction! The first one is for shielding, the second for aerodynamic balance. Works like a charm. The difficult part is getting rid of them midflight...they like to crash into the vessel.

 

>000->

 

Pointing in the same direction? Or opposite directions?

[jimmymcgoochie]

The 10m inflatable heat shield produces tremendous drag due to its huge size when inflated, meaning it’s hard to balance the forces during descent and easy to get flipped backwards. It’s always a good idea to test out anything destined for Eve’s surface by throwing it at Kerbin’s atmosphere instead- you’ll need to accelerate to almost 4km/s to come close to replicating an Eve re-entry but it’s a lot cheaper than getting it all the way to Eve before finding a big flaw in the design.

Something that might help you:

• Put a load of ore tanks on the sides of the 10m heat shield, but don’t carry the ore all the way from Kerbin’s surface to Eve as it’s really heavy and will hurt your delta-V.
• Send a small mining ship out to Gilly and collect ore.
• Take the ore to the rover and put it in the tanks before trying to land on Eve.
• Add something that produces a lot of drag and has good heat tolerance at the back of your vessel- another 10m heat shield, or if you have Breaking Ground either some large wing panels or 2.5m/3.75m heat shields on alligator hinges to open them out for re-entry. You want the centre of mass to be at the front and the centre of drag to be at the back or it will flip around very easily, but a combination of adding ballast at the pointy end and adding drag at the other end will make it easier to keep the pointy end pointing down and increase your survival chances significantly.

 

[Vezbot]

56 minutes ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

The 10m inflatable heat shield produces tremendous drag due to its huge size when inflated, meaning it’s hard to balance the forces during descent and easy to get flipped backwards. It’s always a good idea to test out anything destined for Eve’s surface by throwing it at Kerbin’s atmosphere instead- you’ll need to accelerate to almost 4km/s to come close to replicating an Eve re-entry but it’s a lot cheaper than getting it all the way to Eve before finding a big flaw in the design.

Something that might help you:

• Put a load of ore tanks on the sides of the 10m heat shield, but don’t carry the ore all the way from Kerbin’s surface to Eve as it’s really heavy and will hurt your delta-V.
• Send a small mining ship out to Gilly and collect ore.
• Take the ore to the rover and put it in the tanks before trying to land on Eve.
• Add something that produces a lot of drag and has good heat tolerance at the back of your vessel- another 10m heat shield, or if you have Breaking Ground either some large wing panels or 2.5m/3.75m heat shields on alligator hinges to open them out for re-entry. You want the centre of mass to be at the front and the centre of drag to be at the back or it will flip around very easily, but a combination of adding ballast at the pointy end and adding drag at the other end will make it easier to keep the pointy end pointing down and increase your survival chances significantly.

 

Thank you for listing these options, I will find out where the center of mass and center of drag are in the vab, for the rover module only. I could try putting detachable ore tanks behind the heat shield radially attached to the rover and another 10 m heat shield pointed in the opposite direction in the back?

[Fierce Wolf]

5 hours ago, Vezbot said:

Pointing in the same direction? Or opposite directions?

[Vezbot]

4 hours ago, Fierce Wolf said:

Thanks.

[Xyphos]

Contrary to popular belief, the inflatable heat shield's size isn't supposed to shield large payloads in dense atmospheres, but rather aid in aerobraking small payloads in sparse atmospheres *cough*duna*cough* because of it's large surface area producing large amounts of drag.

if you were to use it on Kerbin, Laythe, Eve, Jool or even Kerbol itself, you'll quickly notice that all the mass behind the high-drag shield will want to shift forward, causing it to flip over and expose the payload.

the popular Kludge to this, is adding an inflatable heat shield to the rear of the payload, and attempt to balance the drag forces on both ends with control surfaces.

also, it is worth noting that entry to Eve's surface doesn't require a heatshield at all, if you carefully aerobrake a few times to low suborbit prior to final entry; heatshields are only required for a single-pass "I gotta have it now" style insertion.

however, the jettison of the shield after use is also quite cumbersome, as it is likely to detach and collide with the payload, breaking things in the process, so it's common practice to just ram it into the surface, or pack it with a few dozen sepratrons to push it away, both strategies won't work well on Eve, due to it's dense atmosphere. I personally suggest using it to safely aerobrake to low sub-orbit and jettisoning it within the vacuum of space before doing your final insertion.

 

you will need a  multi-stage vessel with over 8k dV just to reach LEO from the highest peak (see my signature for details) and over 12k dV from sea-level, but that's not counting the dV needed to return; a separate orbiter should be parked in an elliptical transfer orbit in which to rendezvous with your now stranded-in-orbit crew members, when/if they get there.

currently, it is not possible to SSTO from Eve's surface without the use of mods, even using Breaking Ground's stock propellers to get it above 10km before going rocket-power is quite a challenge, one that I'm still undertaking since Breaking Ground's release.

The best [stock] engines to use on Eve are the Mammoth, Vector, Aerospike, and maybe Swivel, with Swivel and Aerospike being best used above 10km.
Mainsail, Skipper and Twin-Boar engines may also work, but aren't the best candidates.

good luck, happy landings!

Edited October 9, 2020 by Xyphos

[Vezbot]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, Xyphos said:

Contrary to popular belief, the inflatable heat shield's size isn't supposed to shield large payloads in dense atmospheres, but rather aid in aerobraking small payloads in sparse atmospheres *cough*duna*cough* because of it's large surface area producing large amounts of drag.

if you were to use it on Kerbin, Laythe, Eve, Jool or even Kerbol itself, you'll quickly notice that all the mass behind the high-drag shield will want to shift forward, causing it to flip over and expose the payload.

the popular Kludge to this, is adding an inflatable heat shield to the rear of the payload, and attempt to balance the drag forces on both ends with control surfaces.

also, it is worth noting that entry to Eve's surface doesn't require a heatshield at all, if you carefully aerobrake a few times to low suborbit prior to final entry; heatshields are only required for a single-pass "I gotta have it now" style insertion.

however, the jettison of the shield after use is also quite cumbersome, as it is likely to detach and collide with the payload, breaking things in the process, so it's common practice to just ram it into the surface, or pack it with a few dozen sepratrons to push it away, both strategies won't work well on Eve, due to it's dense atmosphere. I personally suggest using it to safely aerobrake to low sub-orbit and jettisoning it within the vacuum of space before doing your final insertion.

 

you will need a  multi-stage vessel with over 8k dV just to reach LEO from the highest peak (see my signature for details) and over 12k dV from sea-level, but that's not counting the dV needed to return; a separate orbiter should be parked in an elliptical transfer orbit in which to rendezvous with your now stranded-in-orbit crew members, when/if they get there.

currently, it is not possible to SSTO from Eve's surface without the use of mods, even using Breaking Ground's stock propellers to get it above 10km before going rocket-power is quite a challenge, one that I'm still undertaking since Breaking Ground's release.

The best [stock] engines to use on Eve are the Mammoth, Vector, Aerospike, and maybe Swivel, with Swivel and Aerospike being best used above 10km.
Mainsail, Skipper and Twin-Boar engines may also work, but aren't the best candidates.

good luck, happy landings!

Thanks for the tips, I managed to get the rover to Eve's surface but I went with the harder way to do it, just clipping 30 tons of parts behind the inflatable shield. That was before I saw this post, so I had some stability issues and sent up another rocket to refuel just to get to Eve. 

I will make the double inflatable shield version 2 of the Eve rover. I appreciate the suggestions everyone! Also see my recent post on What did you do today topic for more details on the painstaking mission. 

[Blaarkies]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:33 AM, Xyphos said:

currently, it is not possible to SSTO from Eve's surface without the use of mods

Bradley Whistance has entered the chat...

[Xyphos]

2018 was over TWO years ago,  KSP v1.5 is outdated and buggy; the fact that he flew and landed that monstrosity without it breaking or crushing is testimony.
I'll retract my previous statement when someone within the past year can do it, as the keyword in play is "CURRENTLY"

Edited October 19, 2020 by Xyphos

[Regor]

On 10/19/2020 at 10:53 PM, Xyphos said:

2018 was over TWO years ago,  KSP v1.5 is outdated and buggy; the fact that he flew and landed that monstrosity without it breaking or crushing is testimony.
I'll retract my previous statement when someone within the past year can do it, as the keyword in play is "CURRENTLY"

 

 

[Xyphos]

19 minutes ago, mabdi36 said:

<video>

 

@2:50 & @3:30 -- I don't recall LV-N's ever being pink/purple/magenta, 'tis clearly mod vessel, not stock.
the dV required to perform that inclination change around Eve alone should have caused a mission failure.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Xyphos

[Regor]

1 hour ago, Xyphos said:

@2:50 & @3:30 -- I don't recall LV-N's ever being pink/purple/magenta, 'tis clearly mod vessel, not stock.
the dV required to perform that inclination change around Eve alone should have caused a mission failure.

dude it is stock. he is just using real plume

"The first of its kind in vanilla KSP. No DLC or part clipping exploits used"

 

 

straight from the video desc

Edited October 22, 2020 by mabdi36

[RealKerbal3x]

1 hour ago, Xyphos said:

I don't recall LV-N's ever being pink/purple/magenta, 'tis clearly mod vessel, not stock.

As @mabdi36 said above, it's RealPlume, a visual mod. It changes how engine plumes look, but the engines being used above are the stock LV-Ns.

[Blaarkies]

On 10/9/2020 at 2:33 AM, Xyphos said:

currently, it is not possible to SSTO from Eve's surface without the use of mods

 

On 10/19/2020 at 2:53 PM, Xyphos said:

2018 was over TWO years ago,  KSP v1.5 is outdated and buggy; the fact that he flew and landed that monstrosity without it breaking or crushing is testimony.
I'll retract my previous statement when someone within the past year can do it, as the keyword in play is "CURRENTLY"

I think the keyword at play is "not possible" 

Just because you can't get to orbit from Eve's surface doesn't make it impossible for the rest of us, and getting technical about the version number just puts you in an argument with all speed runners and vets playing the 1.2 version of the game.

[Xyphos]

Actually, I've been playing since 0.90 and I can get to Eve orbit from sea-level, just not in an SSTO and I've been trying many designs for years which is why I call horse-raddish on this video.

and you can't go around claiming it's "vanilla/stock" while using visual mods, god knows what other mods he's used that can't be seen; given the part count with smooth FPS while recoding, I'd say there's some welding and part mods involved too cuz this game has terrible performance on my [64gb / 4.2ghz / i9-9900k] without visual mods.

so no, I don't believe for a single nanosecond that this was vanilla/stock and my cow-pie meter is reading off the charts.

I'll change my mind when someone can do it on xbox/ps4 so until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Xyphos

[king of nowhere]

 

this is a sane design for an Eve ssto. using propellers to get past the worst of the atmosphere and finishing with rockets is doable.

i am trying to build something similar and i am close, i would manage if i wasn't also trying to have 6 tons of payload

[Xyphos]

13 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

 

this is a sane design for an Eve ssto. using propellers to get past the worst of the atmosphere and finishing with rockets is doable.

i am trying to build something similar and i am close, i would manage if i wasn't also trying to have 6 tons of payload

 

yeah, I've seen this video, it's actually believable, but I'm still a bit skeptic because of the mining equipment in the nose fairing.
and I know your pain; 6 tons is a lot of payload for an Eve SSTO, I assume it's mining equipment?
if so, I recommend fueling on Minmus or Gilly before arriving at Eve, leave the mining equipment affixed to the nuclear tug in orbit, descend a fully-fueled lander to the surface, do your mission, return and redock. use the nuclear tug to get to Gilly and refuel.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Xyphos

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Xyphos said:

 

and I know your pain; 6 tons is a lot of payload for an Eve SSTO, I assume it's mining equipment?
 

it's a 3-ton rover/helicopter to explore the surface, and a 3-ton cargo bay to store it. I'm also trying to include mining equipment if possible, because i don't like the idea of being unable to refuel on the ground if something goes wrong.

So far, I can go suborbital missing 1 km/s to reach orbit, leading me to believe it can be done. i haven't worked on it in a while, though, for a mix of real life constraints, pc issues, and other challenges taking up my time

 

I have also seen a craft that can ssto on earth, reach venus, land, take off again in rss, with stock parts and without refueling, though that uses thermal shields as wings using a glitch that they generate a ridiculous amount of lift when properly oriented. I wouldn't do that, though, because it's basically a kraken drive. a kraken wing?

[RealKerbal3x]

7 hours ago, Xyphos said:

Actually, I've been playing since 0.90 and I can get to Eve orbit from sea-level, just not in an SSTO and I've been trying many designs for years which is why I call horse-raddish on this video.

and you can't go around claiming it's "vanilla/stock" while using visual mods, god knows what other mods he's used that can't be seen; given the part count with smooth FPS while recoding, I'd say there's some welding and part mods involved too cuz this game has terrible performance on my [64gb / 4.2ghz / i9-9900k] without visual mods.

so no, I don't believe for a single nanosecond that this was vanilla/stock and my cow-pie meter is reading off the charts.

I'll change my mind when someone can do it on xbox/ps4 so until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

@Stratzenblitz75's big thing is doing amazing things using only stock parts and physics - go look through the rest of his YouTube channel, you'll see more of the same. He says he used stock KSP (apart from visual mods) without even using DLC in the video description, and why would he lie? The smoothness of the framerate is also probably due to how most of the video is sped up.

[Regor]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:35 PM, Xyphos said:

Actually, I've been playing since 0.90 and I can get to Eve orbit from sea-level, just not in an SSTO and I've been trying many designs for years which is why I call horse-raddish on this video.

and you can't go around claiming it's "vanilla/stock" while using visual mods, god knows what other mods he's used that can't be seen; given the part count with smooth FPS while recoding, I'd say there's some welding and part mods involved too cuz this game has terrible performance on my [64gb / 4.2ghz / i9-9900k] without visual mods.

so no, I don't believe for a single nanosecond that this was vanilla/stock and my cow-pie meter is reading off the charts.

I'll change my mind when someone can do it on xbox/ps4 so until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

At this point you are LITERALLY making things up. Stop digging yourself into a hole and retract your statement. If you are so skeptic about Stratenblitz using mods, you will “disprove” or hitherto fail to with literally any other entry, and you will never retract your statement. The whole world isn’t filled with hypocritical liars... which is ironic because you are failing to retract your statement under your terms.

 

 

I know I would personally think much more highly of you if you retracted your statement, than what I think of you now...

Edited October 25, 2020 by mabdi36

[xlkmuu]

I know eve ssto is difficult, but it has been unlocked, so it depends on which way you like, the mountain version or the sea level version：

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Yk4y1C7qQ?share_source=copy_link&share_medium=iphone&bbid=ZF484CF14524E7AB44479C8BAE86467D3518&ts=1603574044

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV15k4y117s8?share_source=copy_link&share_medium=iphone&bbid=ZF484CF14524E7AB44479C8BAE86467D3518&ts=1603574070

also look at other versions of this author

 

[Snark]

Moving to Gameplay Questions.

[Xyphos]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:12 PM, mabdi36 said:

The whole world isn’t filled with hypocritical liars

Actually, yes it is.
myself included, as you pointed out
I'll admit my own character flaws before I admit that video was legit vanilla (clearly it isn't)

Edited October 25, 2020 by Xyphos