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Seeking participants for a Space Race challenge

jimmymcgoochie
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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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During the latter half of last year I was involved in two different Space Race competitions- the aim being to complete a series of milestones as fast as possible, from first orbit to first interplanetary landing right up to first interstellar base. They were a lot of fun and produced some wildly different ideas for how to do the same thing, so I'd like to kick one off again.

A few basics about what would be involved:

  • KSP 1.12? Depending on how stable the release build is of course!
  • Science mode. Doing it in sandbox would just make everything too easy, but doing it in career mode would waste time with saving up the funds to pay for stuff instead of actually completing the interesting objectives; science mode is a good balance of the two, restricting the more powerful parts but making them easy to unlock. I'm toying with the idea of mandating science-only Kerbalism- no life support or part failures, just the science-takes-time part- as boring button-clicking science isn't any fun.
  • Tech tree TBD; I like the idea of a probes-first tech tree but I'd need to look into that further.
  • Planet pack TBD; I have a few options on this front- GPO, GEP, GPP- but that's something that can be agreed on closer to the start date.
  • Limited parts mods to keep the playing field level. DLCs are fine but anything beyond that becomes a slippery slope, if I'm allowed X then why not Y and so on. Visual mods, tools like MechJeb and so on are fine by me; Restock is OK, I'll consider allowing Restock+ and mods which are balanced against stock performance but nothing better.
  • No cheating! No reverts, no reloads unless the game crashes or in case of Kraken attacks; you fly badly and crash, too bad; NASA, Roscosmos, ESA et al don't have a reset button so the same shall apply here.
  • It's a competition, so you'd get points for completing each objective faster than everyone else based on game time, not real time- this is to let players who don't spend every spare second they have playing KSP (:blush:) have a fair chance and could also mean the scoreboard changes unexpectedly as they complete the objectives faster in game time, but slower in real time. There would be a few phases- reaching orbit, going to the home planet's moons, going interplanetary, building stations and bases in the home planet's SOI, then finally interplanetary or even interstellar bases.

So who's interested?

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Spaceman.Spiff

Spaceman.Spiff

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31 minutes ago, GuessingEveryDay said:

I would suggest UnKerballedStart.

I think Kiwi might be an interesting option. 
 

For planets I think something simple, probably just OPM. 
 

On the interstellar side of thing, probably Strange New Worlds. Maybe the goal could be to colonize a planet. 

Edited by Spaceman.Spiff
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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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@Spaceman.Spiff OPM adds too many new planets for my liking and they’re very far away as well. I’m leaning towards GPP/GEP as they’re built as a pair, I haven’t played them myself and from what I’ve seen of them they’re good quality; alternatively for a larger scale system, JNSQ plus the rescaled GEP might also work as I finally got Ad Astra and Parallax working for JNSQ which makes it look great.

@GuessingEveryDay I’m inclined to say parts mods will be dealt with on a case by case basis- Ven’s Stock Revamp or Restock which only redecorate the existing parts would be fine, the additional parts that both mods can provide (via Ven’s New Parts and Restock+) would probably be OK but I don’t want to get bogged down in a “X is fine but Y is not” argument; if I choose a stock-ish scale system then stock parts only is a no-brainier, but with an upscaled system I might allow some parts mods.

Edited by jimmymcgoochie
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minerbat

minerbat

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ok, i might join. for planet pack i would suggest outer planets as i never played it and i would like to try. also make some kind of habitation rule where you cant just put a kerbal in a pod but have to actually build a big mothership or base if you go any further than Minmus

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kspnerd122

kspnerd122

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I would join if it was GPO or GPP, no rescales, and the allowed part mods should be

NFT(All)

No kerbalisim science, since it does drag it out, and lots of people dont use it.

and there should be some high end drive, since if we are doing GPP, may as well add GEP as well, stock+OPM just feels kinda ehh to me

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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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I've decided on Galileo's Planet Pack with Grannus Expansion for the interstellar bit (if required- GPP has plenty to see on its own!) with Kerbalism's science-only config, however I'm going to just outright ban all parts mods- they're not really necessary at stock scale and using just stock parts ensures a level playing field. This might change for the interstellar part, but I'll have to try it out for myself first.

DLCs are acceptable, but the science stuff from Breaking Ground- surface features either scanned by a rover arm or picked up by a Kerbal and deployed science arrays- is not allowed to prevent an unfair advantage. I haven't yet decided if EVA construction is allowed or not, but I'm leaning towards not- however I'll allow EVA experiment kits.

I've tested GPP/GEP in 1.11.2 and everything looks like it's OK, but use an earlier version if you like. I'll probably do a dry run just to make sure the objectives I'm setting are actually feasible and that the tech tree can be unlocked at a reasonable speed to avoid boring grindy science missions. I won't be competing directly in the race itself, but I will be playing along both for fun and as a sort of benchmark.

A few early ground rules:

  • No reverts or reloads unless there's a serious glitch/game crash/Kraken/something beyond your control. Bad flying is not beyond your control :wink:. 
  • This competition will be based on game time (Universal Time, starting at Y1, D1, 00:00:00) and not real time. I'm planning on making the scoring system reflect that with more points for doing something quicker, but those points would change if someone comes along later in real time but completes it faster in game time.
  • I reserve the right to give bonus points for particularly impressive feats, or take them away if I detect any rule breaking.
  • There will be a list of objectives, you should complete these in order; there will be a few exceptions to this rule, but they will be clearly marked as such.
  • Maximum two objectives per craft. Example- a probe goes to Iota/Ceti and does a flyby, completing one objective; it then leaves Gael's SOI, completing another objective; if that same probe happens to end up in, say, Tellumo's SOI later it can't get any objectives relating to Tellumo. Think very carefully about which objectives you claim, once it's recorded you can't change your mind.
  • One mission per launch- no stacking multiple probes into a single rocket then sending them off in their own directions once in orbit. That includes relay network objectives, but if you include relay dishes on your first orbiter probes you can get a head start on the relay network. There's also nothing stopping you from adding experiments to your relays to get more science. You can, however, use multiple launches to assemble a single vessel in orbit- this might be necessary for going interstellar or doing long-range crewed interplanetary missions.
  • You must complete one full orbit to claim any orbital objectives, and I want to see proof of that- take a screenshot when you first reach the orbit showing its orbital period, then a second screenshot once that orbital period has passed.
  • Provide screenshots as proof for everything you're claiming- they need to be visible, so make sure anything happening in the dark is still clear; I use Minimum Ambient Lighting for this. Any screenshots provided to prove the completion of an objective should have the game time in them, either by including the UI in the images with the clock set to UT (not MET!) or by using a mod like Historian to add those details in. I'd like to see a screenshot of each mission being launched and another when it completes an objective.
  • If a Kerbal (or Gaelan, as GPP calls them) dies during a mission, that mission is a failure and can't count towards any objectives. This also applies retroactively- burn up on re-entry after returning from another planet and you'll have to make that trip again.
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TRAPPIST-1E

TRAPPIST-1E

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I have a few questions about the actual race:

  1. Is RestockPlus/Ven's new parts allowed?
  2. Do the objectives have to be completed in order?
  3. Can you please allow EVA construction? there is no reason to not use 1.11 if the only mods are GPP and GEP
  4. Can you launch multiple rockets to complete 1 mission? IE: Multiple launches for a big interplanetary craft
  5. Can you please allow objectives that involve multiple craft to be launched on 1 rocket? IE: multiple relay satellites on 1 launch. It makes no sense to have to split them up.
  6. Is there a waiting period between doing objectives in real life?
  7. Can you allow GEP-CommNet
  8. A good mod for going to Grannus could be Stockalike Orion Drive
  9. Can a mission refuel? IE: an interplanetary ship returning from Thalia refuels in LGO to then go off to Tellumo

I would like to participate, no matter of the answers to these questions.

Edited by TRAPPIST-1E
I missed a thing
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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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@GuessingEveryDay videos are good too.

@TRAPPIST-1E I already answered most of those questions two posts above you, but to be quick:

  1. No.
  2. Yes.
  3. Maybe. Allowing EVA construction would effectively allow the creation of a new craft from pieces of others, which to me is just a chesty way of getting around the two objectives per craft rule.
  4. Yes, but be reasonable about it- launching a bunch of 
  5. No- be creative with your designs and you can complete a relay network without having to launch a single dedicated craft for it. (Hint- put a relay dish on every probe and they’ll count as relays).
  6. No- go at your own pace, the race is based on game time not real time.
  7. No, but I’ll allow the JX2 antenna for going to Grannus; how you use that is up to you.
  8. I’m going to run through my own challenge first to see if it’s possible without any parts mods at all, but if not I’ll keep my options open.
  9. Refuelling in orbit is fine, as is using ISRU, but that doesn’t change the two objectives per craft rule.
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TRAPPIST-1E

TRAPPIST-1E

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I'm still confused about the 2 objectives per craft rule. Does that mean that if I have an orbiter and lander I can complete 4 objectives, 2 for the lander and 2 for the orbiter? Or can I only complete 2 for the mission?

Can Lithobrake Exploration Technologies be used? It's a pretty small part mod so everyone should be able to use it (if that's the reason for not using part mods).

May I suggest to allow mods for going to the outer planets because they are even farther than stock Eeloo. Tweakscale might work.

Thank you for reading this.

 

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GuessingEveryDay

GuessingEveryDay

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4 hours ago, TRAPPIST-1E said:

I'm still confused about the 2 objectives per craft rule. Does that mean that if I have an orbiter and lander I can complete 4 objectives, 2 for the lander and 2 for the orbiter? Or can I only complete 2 for the mission?

Can Lithobrake Exploration Technologies be used? It's a pretty small part mod so everyone should be able to use it (if that's the reason for not using part mods).

May I suggest to allow mods for going to the outer planets because they are even farther than stock Eeloo. Tweakscale might work.

Thank you for reading this.

 

  1. Let's take the Apollo missions as an example. They wanted to orbit and land on the moon in the same mission. So they put the same thing on the same craft. What we're limiting ourselves to is that if we complete 3 objectives on the same craft, then we have to decide which 2 to keep.
  2. We don't want to accidentally nerf the entire competition, because some parts may be balanced for the wrong systems.
  3. For the first part of the race, we'll probably stick to stock. When it's time to go interstellar, then we'll add the mods necessary.
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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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After playing through the challenges myself for a while, I've discovered that combining Kerbalism with Probes before Crew makes for a really tedious start. With that in mind, I'm going to allow everyone to start with 10 science to unlock the first two tech tree nodes, which makes everything happen a whole lot quicker and makes Gael orbit feasible in 3 or 4 launches; pick up the Terrier and you'll be orbiting and landing on its moons in no time at all.

Re. mods, the answer is still no- there's no need for them, be creative with the stock parts. Assuming this goes all the way to interstellar (Grannus) I'll probably have to relax that rule as the Grannus system is very compact and so requires high delta-V to get anywhere, on top of the delta-V required to get there from the Ciro system, but I don't want to see a single mod part before then.

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jimmymcgoochie

jimmymcgoochie

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Still working on the objectives for this, but I have a few ground rules pretty much set.

Required mods: Galileo's Planet Pack (GPP), Grannus Expansion Pack (GEP) and Kopernicus, along with GPP textures and EVE (it's a dependency of GPP); Kerbalism plus science-only config, which cuts out all the life support/part failures stuff and just leaves the experiments-take-time stuff; Probes Before Crew. All of these mods work in KSP 1.12.2 and can be downloaded via CKAN.

Permitted mods: KER, MechJeb, planetary visuals like scatterer, Waterfall, JX2 antenna (for interstellar communications only), Kerbal appearance and/or name changers, new space suits for Kerbals, KAC, transfer planner tools. I'll consider requests to add to this list if anyone has any suggestions.

Banned mods: All parts mods, anything that changes stock parts' appearances or performance, anything that allows construction of parts or vessels while they're in flight or anywhere other than Gael- this includes KIS/KAS, Extraplanetary Launchpads, MKS etc., GEP's CommNet extension that adds a level 4 tracking station (at least until the interstellar phase, I'll consider allowing it then), Kerbal Konstructs and related stuff that adds new launch sites, Making History and Breaking Ground DLCs- it's base game only now.

Rules:

  • Everything is based on in-game universal time (UT), not real time. Bonus points will be awarded for completing objectives in the quickest time and for completing each of the five (planned) phases of the race.
  • Complete the objectives in order. You must complete each objective before proceeding to the next and complete all objectives in each phase before starting the next.
  • Strict limits will be imposed on the number of active missions and the number of objectives each mission can complete, both to encourage good planning and to prevent spamming dozens of craft in all directions 
  • Avoid part clipping as much as possible- I don't mind squishing stuff in a bit to make it more aerodynamic or to protect from re-entry heating, but no hiding entire parts inside other parts.
  • No Kraken drives or other cheaty propulsion systems are allowed.
  • Everything must launch from the KSC launchpad and runway, no other launch sites are allowed.
  • No reverts allowed, unless game glitches or crashes cause mission-critical failures. Bad piloting, poor planning and forgetting parts don't count as mission-critical failures; you make a mistake, you live with the consequences.
  • If a crew member dies during a mission, the mission fails and must be restarted from scratch. The whole crew must be returned safely for all interplanetary missions, for interstellar trips returning is optional.
  • Screenshots for everything! Feel free to use the Historian mod to add useful information to the screenshots, or include the game UI with the universal time clock. If you don't screenshot it, there's no proof that it ever happened. I'd like to see a screenshot when a craft leaves the launchpad, when it makes orbit and then when it does important stuff- completing objectives, but also when e.g. an orbiter/lander mission drops the lander.
  • "Orbit x" objectives require one complete orbit- I want to see two screenshots which include the orbital period in the bottom left corner, at least one orbital period apart on the UT clock. If multiple biomes are needed, Kerbalism experiment control windows will show which biome you're in- include this per biome; likewise when science data transmission is required.

Once I have the objectives hammered out, I'll start a new thread for the race to start on the 1st of September which will include the objectives, difficulty settings to use and the scoring system. I'll also try to play along/ahead to see if there are any glaring issues that would make this more of a grind than it needs to be.

If you're still interested in taking part, send me a PM with your team name and flag. Or if you read that wall of text above and are just :confused:...

Edited by jimmymcgoochie
DLCs no longer allowed.
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Spaceman.Spiff

Spaceman.Spiff

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1 hour ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

Making History DLCs

IMO the MH DLC should not be allowed as it provides more powerful and larger parts than those who don’t have it. 

1 hour ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

anything that changes stock parts' appearances

Ah so no Restock. That’s too bad. 

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