real solar system for ksp 2

[Vanamonde]

Earlier I asked a rhetorical question which apparently seemed as though I was inviting debate. I apologize as that was not my intention. I have stricken out the statement. The point is, please don't be mean to each other, okay? 

Replies to my rhetorical question have also been removed. Now please stick to the subject of the thread. 

[Ninadragonborn]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:48 PM, t_v said:

Okay. Maybe this will help: kerbal space program is not intended to be very realistic, it is intended to be as realistic as the developers want it to be. Therefore, asking for more realism in the form of a Sol-like system is not going to happen by default. It sounds like you are only really attached  to KSP because of the realism. In which case, that simulator linked above sounds like it would be good for you. Lastly, no one is insulting your intelligence or expertise. Being combative is not going to help you with your problem of finding a realistic simulator (hint, that free one is pretty good). As someone else said, this is End of Discussion because the developers are not going to put the Solar system in. 

so you want me to leave is this your page this is what i want to see in this game if you don't want it than you shouldn't be in this page in the first place and also everybody who don't care about this is that so hard to understand 

On 1/26/2022 at 12:48 PM, t_v said:

Okay. Maybe this will help: kerbal space program is not intended to be very realistic, it is intended to be as realistic as the developers want it to be. Therefore, asking for more realism in the form of a Sol-like system is not going to happen by default. It sounds like you are only really attached  to KSP because of the realism. In which case, that simulator linked above sounds like it would be good for you. Lastly, no one is insulting your intelligence or expertise. Being combative is not going to help you with your problem of finding a realistic simulator (hint, that free one is pretty good). As someone else said, this is End of Discussion because the developers are not going to put the Solar system in. 

i don't think this is your business to in this forum which is not yours to tell me what to do if you don't like the idea than you shouldn't be here as i said above 

On 1/29/2022 at 9:13 PM, intelliCom said:

~[snip]~

Learn how to use mods ~[snip]~ I'm certain there'll be an RSS 2 made by new people, if not the guys who worked on the original one.

~[snip]~ you don't know anything about me or where i am or how many time i have dealt with tons of mod problem ~[snip]~

Edited February 3, 2022 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[Ninadragonborn]

On 1/30/2022 at 3:33 PM, Kerbal Productions said:

Well then, it would be your problem.

You know KSP 1's planets are really scaled down, so much that Jool's just Earth-sized. 

You have some experience on KSP, I see. But why can't you bother mod your game? I mean, it shouldn't be any harder, should it?

What I saw with you is that you don't want to manually update your mods. CKAN does exist. At least for KSP 1.

I don't know the future of modding for KSP 2, but chances are it would be the same like KSP 1. So if you're just a layabout and will just play KSP 1 or 2 with mods that you don't bother updating, then what would be the sense of you playing it?

Then get the mods! Adding a whole Solar System in the stock game would have problems, and it would be hungry for great performance, therefore being exclusive to other people. Besides, there are other games with the whole Solar System on it. So if you won't accept the efforts on KSP 2, like interstellar planets on the stock game (KSP 1 has no interstellar planets, duh. Galaxies Unbound and more interstellar mods add them). 

And when developers don't give a damn on your problem, that would be their problem. And you should still know real life exists. They aren't just looking on a monitor all day! 

I, as a high school student, is also busy and barely can find any time to even make a cinematic that would please people. But I still do. So you should know that PEOPLE HAVE SCHEDULES!

Okay, then. You could just uninstall KSP since it's so imperfect that not one Solar System planet is on the stock game.

I've played RSS and KSRSS, and I gotta say, it has a lot of detail just to be perfect. KSP 2 has INTERSTELLAR PLANETS. INTERSTELLAR! Isn't that enough?! Do you still need to deep-dive onto Uranus or surf the rings of Saturn if there are potential analogues to the base game (on KSP2)?!

And also, you might want to look at other features. Colonization, new parts, multiplayer, interstellar travel, etc.

 

This must've been my longest post and I could continue.

And one last thing, @Ninadragonborn, if you'll just want to see the game depending on one of its biggest asset: the planets, then you should just uninstall the game or not bother getting it. Who knows, when mod installation is much easier you just might complain 'bout it again.

i am using the mods but there is almost always a problem with mods either i have to use very few mods or if i use more or a lot of them then there will be problem sometime out of nowhere and beside that each time the game adds new update or dlc i have to update the mods and there is a good chance some of the mods won't work  and i have to start all over agian and have to spend hours upon hours to find the problem if i can fixed if not i have to remove several mods so that is the problem with mods 

[t_v]

8 hours ago, Ninadragonborn said:

so you want me to leave is this your page this is what i want to see in this game if you don't want it than you shouldn't be in this page in the first place and also everybody who don't care about this is that so hard to understand 

i don't think this is your business to in this forum which is not yours to tell me what to do if you don't like the idea than you shouldn't be here as i said above 

~[snip]~ you don't know anything about me or where i am or how many time i have dealt with tons of mod problem ~[snip]~

With the first two things, I am a bit confused. This is a forum, where people can reply to other people and put in their opinions, which may be different from the poster. Are you looking to have only people who agree with you in this thread? With your third response, it is true that using mods can be hard and frustrating. That does not mean that RSS should be added to stock, it means that better modding tools should be made to help manage mods. I think you are complaining about CKAN not being adequate and proposing to make a specific mod stock as a solution, which it is not. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Starhawk
Quoted redacted post

[WelshSteW]

I hope this doesn't kick off again, and need to have posts deleted etc.

 

As my previous post in the thread states, I would like an option to play in the real solar system. I've got a game in KSP with RSS, and I love exploring the system I live in. It's awesome. The thought that one day people might be actually standing in the places I've landed is amazing.

Is this meant as a genuine "please could the devs make a real solar system option?" ? No. It's just me saying that if they did, I'd enjoy it.

 

And, for what it's worth, I know it'd take time, and I know people don't want KPS2 to take any longer than it absolutely has to. I'm one of those people! I'd like the game to come out NOW!  But I don't think it'd take a 'proper' development team that long to do it, given that 'amateurs' will probably have it done within a few weeks (or maybe a couple of months) after the game is released.

Hell, the devs could release the game, then work on a real solar system DLC maybe??

[Ember12]

1 hour ago, Ninadragonborn said:

i am using the mods but there is almost always a problem with mods either i have to use very few mods or if i use more or a lot of them then there will be problem sometime out of nowhere and beside that each time the game adds new update or dlc i have to update the mods and there is a good chance some of the mods won't work  and i have to start all over agian and have to spend hours upon hours to find the problem if i can fixed if not i have to remove several mods so that is the problem with mods

No one here is denying that you would enjoy it more with RSS as stock.  I think what people are saying is, very few people agree, so the devs would be doing a whole lot of work and making the majority of players (like me) sad. 

You also said earlier that KSP is a simulation game, so you want it to line up with reality wherever possible.  If that's what you're going for, it's hard to draw a line between what real stuff should be in the game and what should be made up.  Kerbals are not real, do you think they should be removed and replaced with humans?  Should all planned star systems for the game be replaced with our real-life celestial neighbors?

Edited February 3, 2022 by Ember12

[gussi111]

1 hour ago, t_v said:

 This is a forum, where people can reply to other people and put in their opinions, which may be different from the poster. Are you looking to have only people who agree with you in this thread?

exactly.

[Vanamonde]

More content removed. Disagreeing is fine. But since my previous posts were apparently not clear, 

STOP CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES. 

Be polite while disagreeing. 

[obnox twin]

~[snip]~

5 hours ago, Ninadragonborn said:

i am using the mods but there is almost always a problem with mods either i have to use very few mods or if i use more or a lot of them then there will be problem sometime out of nowhere and beside that each time the game adds new update or dlc i have to update the mods and there is a good chance some of the mods won't work  and i have to start all over agian and have to spend hours upon hours to find the problem if i can fixed if not i have to remove several mods so that is the problem with mods 

I can run mods on a mac and a lot of people in mod threads are happy to help. As well installing CKAN will help you as it will install all the dependencies you need you just gotta sort out versions as well. But its okay to ask for help as I do have some troubles but it is easy for me to ask for help. A lot of people are willing to help.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[The Aziz]

I think some of you stock RSS backers really underestimate the level of detail the devs are currently aiming for. That's huge amount of work. It wouldn't be worth it, financially, since they would not only had to build the planets, but also rebalance everything else for a bunch of hardcore players. You also forgot that the terrain in KSP 1 was really bland and boring, applying simplified height map was much easier for modders than it would be today, unless of course you want to see empty, boring landscapes once more. That's not going to be done "in weeks" if the bodies are about to be as detailed as stock worlds.

[Madrocketman]

RSS is a fine mod. I don't see the point of making it stock though. 

Personally IMO, I will be using KSP 1 for RSS/RP-1, and KSP 2 for well... KSP 2.

 

RSS is one of those "too big to implement," it really is a different game (especially with RP-1 and RO.)

 

[Starhawk]

Feel free to discuss your ideas and suggestions.

Do not feel that any comment is justification for personal attacks of any kind.  Discussing the merits of an idea is great, and is the exact purpose of the forum.  Discussing another user's motives, behaviour or personality are never called for.

If you feel that you can't make a post without resorting to attacking the person who posted in some way, then refrain from posting.

Thank you for your understanding,
KSP Moderation Team

[jimmymcgoochie]

11 hours ago, The Aziz said:

I think some of you stock RSS backers really underestimate the level of detail the devs are currently aiming for. That's huge amount of work. It wouldn't be worth it, financially, since they would not only had to build the planets, but also rebalance everything else for a bunch of hardcore players. You also forgot that the terrain in KSP 1 was really bland and boring, applying simplified height map was much easier for modders than it would be today, unless of course you want to see empty, boring landscapes once more. That's not going to be done "in weeks" if the bodies are about to be as detailed as stock worlds.

THIS. So much this.

Have you SEEN the state of RSS? Most bodies have two terrain modes: steep hills or millpond flat- Mars, the Moon, even large swathes of Earth are unnaturally smooth. The terrain textures (and most of the height maps) are mostly built from real data, so half of Phobos is covered in ridges like rice paddies where it looks like the limited radar mapping hasn’t worked particularly well; Mercury’s texture looks weird because of how visible imaging cameras work on fast-moving spacecraft (and nothing has really been there); the Jovian moons are really odd looking with areas of sharply focussed terrain and others where it’s all blurred, no doubt as a result of images taken at different distances in Jupiter orbit since nothing has really been to any of them; and anything from Saturn out is a mess owing to the extremely small number of probes that have been there (a total of one Saturn orbit mission, Cassini/Huygens, and nothing but Voyager 2 which flew past Uranus and Neptune). And all that is with the highest resolution textures available for RSS, which are so large that they break SCANsat and you have to disable its visual scan systems to avoid crashing the game all the time.

Also, real planets are BIG- they need suitably BIG terrain textures or everything looks awful in flight and in orbit, but that takes up a lot more memory and processing power. Compare that to the recent Show and Tell videos of KSP2 with all the highly detailed terrain and atmospheric effects going into places like Gurdamma, then imagine trying to apply that level of detail across a planet that has several thousand times more surface area in a realistic way. And now that Ganymede is done, let’s start on Earth which is several times larger again and which everyone will pay attention to (wouldn’t you like to be able to launch rockets from in front of your own front door? Sorry, your entire town doesn’t exist except as 3 grey pixels on the map and a flat expanse of empty terrain with one tree randomly plonked down in the middle).

The real problem with real life is that in many cases the details just aren’t known, certainly not well enough to create realistic looking models for a space exploration game. Either you have to use the limited information available, or just make stuff up- at which point, why not just use fictional planets instead? RSS hovers close to the uncanny valley: fine at a distance, but get up close and the details start jarring, breaking the immersion.

I’ve already explained why this is a bad idea from a gameplay/balance perspective (TL;DR, parts balanced for stock scale are puny in real scale, parts balanced for real scale are overpowered for stock scale) and also from a game development perspective (TL;DR, adding a large feature like Sol system with all the work that entails isn’t a good use of development time since it isn’t a core game mechanic, doesn’t fit the “Kerbal” thing at all and only a small proportion of players want it). I also feel obliged to point out, again, that the developers have explicitly stated that KSP2 will stay entirely at Kerbal scale, so no real scale planets will feature as part of the base game.

Spoiler

Don’t get me wrong: if KSP2 was released and then the developers created a side project to recreate RSS/RO/RP-1 as a stand-alone game using KSP2’s code, rather than a hodgepodge of mods held together with spit and duct tape, I would definitely say yes to that. The real issue here is trying to shoehorn “real” stuff into a game that at the end of the day is all about shooting little green aliens across space. Let Kerbal be Kerbal.

[Ninadragonborn]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:47 PM, obnox twin said:

~[snip]~

I can run mods on a mac and a lot of people in mod threads are happy to help. As well installing CKAN will help you as it will install all the dependencies you need you just gotta sort out versions as well. But its okay to ask for help as I do have some troubles but it is easy for me to ask for help. A lot of people are willing to help.

yes you can see how they did help me anyway that's not about my idea and i simply will move to simperocket 2 as soon as its realised because its allow to edit the solar system you want not putting it in the hand of modders which i explained why i don't want mods 

On 2/4/2022 at 12:45 PM, jimmymcgoochie said:

THIS. So much this.

Have you SEEN the state of RSS? Most bodies have two terrain modes: steep hills or millpond flat- Mars, the Moon, even large swathes of Earth are unnaturally smooth. The terrain textures (and most of the height maps) are mostly built from real data, so half of Phobos is covered in ridges like rice paddies where it looks like the limited radar mapping hasn’t worked particularly well; Mercury’s texture looks weird because of how visible imaging cameras work on fast-moving spacecraft (and nothing has really been there); the Jovian moons are really odd looking with areas of sharply focussed terrain and others where it’s all blurred, no doubt as a result of images taken at different distances in Jupiter orbit since nothing has really been to any of them; and anything from Saturn out is a mess owing to the extremely small number of probes that have been there (a total of one Saturn orbit mission, Cassini/Huygens, and nothing but Voyager 2 which flew past Uranus and Neptune). And all that is with the highest resolution textures available for RSS, which are so large that they break SCANsat and you have to disable its visual scan systems to avoid crashing the game all the time.

Also, real planets are BIG- they need suitably BIG terrain textures or everything looks awful in flight and in orbit, but that takes up a lot more memory and processing power. Compare that to the recent Show and Tell videos of KSP2 with all the highly detailed terrain and atmospheric effects going into places like Gurdamma, then imagine trying to apply that level of detail across a planet that has several thousand times more surface area in a realistic way. And now that Ganymede is done, let’s start on Earth which is several times larger again and which everyone will pay attention to (wouldn’t you like to be able to launch rockets from in front of your own front door? Sorry, your entire town doesn’t exist except as 3 grey pixels on the map and a flat expanse of empty terrain with one tree randomly plonked down in the middle).

The real problem with real life is that in many cases the details just aren’t known, certainly not well enough to create realistic looking models for a space exploration game. Either you have to use the limited information available, or just make stuff up- at which point, why not just use fictional planets instead? RSS hovers close to the uncanny valley: fine at a distance, but get up close and the details start jarring, breaking the immersion.

I’ve already explained why this is a bad idea from a gameplay/balance perspective (TL;DR, parts balanced for stock scale are puny in real scale, parts balanced for real scale are overpowered for stock scale) and also from a game development perspective (TL;DR, adding a large feature like Sol system with all the work that entails isn’t a good use of development time since it isn’t a core game mechanic, doesn’t fit the “Kerbal” thing at all and only a small proportion of players want it). I also feel obliged to point out, again, that the developers have explicitly stated that KSP2 will stay entirely at Kerbal scale, so no real scale planets will feature as part of the base game.

  Hide contents

Don’t get me wrong: if KSP2 was released and then the developers created a side project to recreate RSS/RO/RP-1 as a stand-alone game using KSP2’s code, rather than a hodgepodge of mods held together with spit and duct tape, I would definitely say yes to that. The real issue here is trying to shoehorn “real” stuff into a game that at the end of the day is all about shooting little green aliens across space. Let Kerbal be Kerbal.

some gaming company will create a real solar system game and that moment for me is the end of ksp my idea was that this game should be a simulator no matter what and i can tell you how much effort was put in games lik red dead redemption 2 . i am not saying they are not doing nothing in ksp 2 they doing their best i know that but what i want from a simulation game is that to be realistic that's all and i think i am wasting my time with all this so thats the end of this post and i will never post anything in this forum ever again . unless i need help with some mods 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Ninadragonborn

[Ninadragonborn]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:59 AM, t_v said:

With the first two things, I am a bit confused. This is a forum, where people can reply to other people and put in their opinions, which may be different from the poster. Are you looking to have only people who agree with you in this thread? With your third response, it is true that using mods can be hard and frustrating. That does not mean that RSS should be added to stock, it means that better modding tools should be made to help manage mods. I think you are complaining about CKAN not being adequate and proposing to make a specific mod stock as a solution, which it is not. 

did i say CKAN where did i mention CKAN !!! 

[snip]

 

On 2/3/2022 at 10:51 AM, WelshSteW said:

I hope this doesn't kick off again, and need to have posts deleted etc.

 

As my previous post in the thread states, I would like an option to play in the real solar system. I've got a game in KSP with RSS, and I love exploring the system I live in. It's awesome. The thought that one day people might be actually standing in the places I've landed is amazing.

Is this meant as a genuine "please could the devs make a real solar system option?" ? No. It's just me saying that if they did, I'd enjoy it.

 

And, for what it's worth, I know it'd take time, and I know people don't want KPS2 to take any longer than it absolutely has to. I'm one of those people! I'd like the game to come out NOW!  But I don't think it'd take a 'proper' development team that long to do it, given that 'amateurs' will probably have it done within a few weeks (or maybe a couple of months) after the game is released.

Hell, the devs could release the game, then work on a real solar system DLC maybe??

i don't think they do it i am looking some other gaming company do that like real life space simulator chosing from modern company like spaceX and other new company building your company and sending rockets to space taking contract from military and bussiness company research tree with several layers of research from advanced missiles to powerful and zenon rocket engine it will be a great game i hope some other company do that 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[The Aziz]

I already linked you a realistic spaceflight sim [snip]

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Madrocketman]

On 2/6/2022 at 5:15 AM, Ninadragonborn said:

did i say CKAN where did i mention CKAN !!! 

[snip]

Most people install RSS, RO, and RP-1 with CKAN. Which is why I think he mentioned CKAN.

Now, I can say that downloading mods can be frustrating. But RSS as stock system IMO makes no sense:

 

1. The Magic of KSP is that you aren't hit hard with making big rockets to get to orbit. As much as I love RO/RP-1, base stock is the way to go for someone with no experience. 

 

2. At this point, KSP 2's main system is the Kerbol system. To switch the main system or start developing the Sol system would take at least, IMO, 6-12months 

 

3. To what you said earlier about how "modders don't give a damn about your problem and i don't want to update mods constantly so i want it to be in base game " Remember that the modders are human. Just like you and me, they have a busy life schedule and this isn't what they are being payed to do.  Besides, most of the time when people report problems they never send anything useful like a log. 

4. To the other thing you said in that quote "i don't want to update mods constantly so i want it to be in base game," that's just how mods work. Just like how you have to update your license plate every year, or for people who don't drive; how you have to update any game whenever a major release comes out. 

 

I do understand the want for it to be stock though, I was mod-o-phobic for a bit because the idea of having multiple mods that you have to manage was too much for me at the time. The great thing is, there are many great tutorials online that can teach you how. 

[gussi111]

On 2/6/2022 at 5:04 AM, Ninadragonborn said:

yes you can see how they did help me anyway that's not about my idea and i simply will move to simperocket 2 as soon as its realised because its allow to edit the solar system you want not putting it in the hand of modders which i explained why i don't want mods 

some gaming company will create a real solar system game and that moment for me is the end of ksp my idea was that this game should be a simulator no matter what and i can tell you how much effort was put in games lik red dead redemption 2 . i am not saying they are not doing nothing in ksp 2 they doing their best i know that but what i want from a simulation game is that to be realistic that's all and i think i am wasting my time with all this so thats the end of this post and i will never post anything in this forum ever again . unless i need help with some mods 

On 2/6/2022 at 5:15 AM, Ninadragonborn said:

did i say CKAN where did i mention CKAN !!! 

[snip]

 

Azis already gave you a game you may like to check out [snip]. I'm certain there will be RSS/RO for KSP2 so what is the problem?  [snip]

Edited February 7, 2022 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[DunaManiac]

@Ninadragonborn It's a shame that the tone of this thread has been so vitriolic, but I wanted to put in my two cents. I can't understand why RSS should be added into KSP and here's why:

Say there's a mod which I really like, and which I think would really improve the game. It's also difficult to install and generally is very buggy. Now, this mod completely reworks the game and turns the game into a combat simulator, where the object of the game is to destroy the opposing power, the Kerbal Union.

Now, there are a couple of games like this that fit the bill, but none of them have the same quality as KSP. Therefore, I think it should be part of the base game to take advantage of that.

A small portion of people in the fanbase want it? Well it's my way or the highway!

It reduces the quality of the game as a whole? Well, I want the game to conform to my vision of it regardless of the quality cost.

It completely changes the focus of the game and will require a massive amount of rebalancing that will delay a game already delayed by two years? Well, I don't care because I don't want to have to deal with a random mod conking out and ruining my game all the time.

So, you see, I can't really understand the need to feature RSS as stock in KSP2. It's not like a mod that is easy to implement and should be part of the game anyway, but RSS completely changes the focus of the game. If it was implemented, KSP's name might as well be changed to Human Space Program. And if you want a Human Space Program, that's your opinion, but don't force it upon new players who already struggle with the stock scale.

Edited February 6, 2022 by DunaManiac

[Ninadragonborn]

22 hours ago, Madrocketman said:

Most people install RSS, RO, and RP-1 with CKAN. Which is why I think he mentioned CKAN.

Now, I can say that downloading mods can be frustrating. But RSS as stock system IMO makes no sense:

 

1. The Magic of KSP is that you aren't hit hard with making big rockets to get to orbit. As much as I love RO/RP-1, base stock is the way to go for someone with no experience. 

 

2. At this point, KSP 2's main system is the Kerbol system. To switch the main system or start developing the Sol system would take at least, IMO, 6-12months 

 

3. To what you said earlier about how "modders don't give a damn about your problem and i don't want to update mods constantly so i want it to be in base game " Remember that the modders are human. Just like you and me, they have a busy life schedule and this isn't what they are being payed to do.  Besides, most of the time when people report problems they never send anything useful like a log. 

4. To the other thing you said in that quote "i don't want to update mods constantly so i want it to be in base game," that's just how mods work. Just like how you have to update your license plate every year, or for people who don't drive; how you have to update any game whenever a major release comes out. 

 

I do understand the want for it to be stock though, I was mod-o-phobic for a bit because the idea of having multiple mods that you have to manage was too much for me at the time. The great thing is, there are many great tutorials online that can teach you how. 

RP_1 and all mod like its makes no sense they just make game stupidlly hard and nonesense. some of the things that have been put in RP_1  don't even make sense and are not like real world 

[snip] i am saying some of the mod not all of it. so that is out and adding all this mods just make game slow and using a lot of ram [snip]

Edited February 7, 2022 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Snark]

Some content has been redacted and/or removed.  Folks, let's take it down a notch, please.

• Please do not make any comments about anyone else's behavior.  It's not your place.  If you think someone is behaving unreasonably, then the best course of action is to just ignore them and don't respond.  Or, if you must, you can respond-- politely-- to the substantive content of what they said, with substantive responses of your own.  But please, address the post, not the poster.  Their behavior is not an appropriate topic of conversation.  Yes, even if it makes you angry.
• Please do not tell anyone what to do or what not to do.  It's not your place.  If you think someone's behavior is so egregious that it's actually violating forum rules, then by all means report it, and the moderator team will have a look.  Beyond that, though, please don't try to boss people around.  Even if they're making you angry.
• Name-calling, finger-pointing, personal remarks, and insulting behavior have no place in the forum.  If you think you need to do that to make your point, it just means that you don't have a valid point, and you'd best refrain from posting at all.

I would also suggest that it's never a good idea to post while angry.  It accomplishes nothing and never ends well.  If you find yourself wanting to post something while (or because) you're angry, it's better not to.  Best to take a step back from the keyboard, and wait an hour or a day or however long it takes, until you've cooled off enough that you're capable of posting reasonably rather than lashing out.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Vanamonde]

Thread closed at OP's request.