What Energy/food needs Would a Humanoid With Firefly Light Emission Need?

[Spacescifi]

Fireflies make 'cold light', so called because it does not emit in infrared or UV frequencies.

If a scifi humanoid alien also had this ability, would it be energy efficient or inefficient?

 

My guess? Probably won't make much difference, cold light does not seem to take much energy to produce.

I guess it depends on how much light someone wishes to produce.

 

Like if they lit up all their skin... that's on a whole higher level of magnitude!

 

Let's just say that on their earthlike world days/nights are 60 hurs long.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Spacescifi

[Gargamel]

25 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

If a scifi humanoid alien also had this ability, would it be energy efficient or inefficient?

Yes. 
 

Effeciency is measured as the ratio of the amount of work done by a process to the total amount of energy used by that process.
 
We haven’t established what the work is nor the amount of energy used.    

Also, the words efficient or inefficient as used in this case are comparators.   X is more efficient than Y, therefore Y is more inefficient.   Due to the laws of thermodynamics, no process is 100% efficient, energy will be always be “lost” somewhere.  So we need to compare these proposed processes against something else.  
 

I see where you’re going with this idea, I don’t think you’re asking the right questions, yet.   

[tomf]

The Wikipedia page on luciferase says the bacterial version is 80-90% efficient, so I assume the humanoid version could be similar.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferase#:~:text=The reaction is 80% to,input energy to visible light.

[kerbiloid]

Depends on the shining part diameter and the temperature of backhurt.

W/m² = 5.67*10^-8 T⁴

T is in Kelvins.

Edited January 29, 2022 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, tomf said:

The Wikipedia page on luciferase says the bacterial version is 80-90% efficient, so I assume the humanoid version could be similar.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferase#:~:text=The reaction is 80% to,input energy to visible light.

 

Interesting. Now I want scientists to try and harness it and make flashlights out of it.

47 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

Depends on the shining part diameter and the temperature of backhurt.

W/m² = 5.67*10^-8 T⁴

T is in Kelvins.

 

So let's say a character is in a darkened warehouse and wants to read writing on a container perched above about ten feet away.

What portion of the body would he use? Light up the middle of his forehead?

And I imagine he needs to be at least flashlight intensity to be able to see the writing.

It just won't project accross distance as well since the light is not focused by any reflector nozzles. Since it will spread out rapidly.

 

So at most one could induce a fever if they went too bright for too long I imagine.

 

But on the plus side these guys would never be blind in the dark!

 

Actually scientists DO use it. Check out the applications in wikipedia.

 

There is little to stop them from making anything they want bioluminescent..   including us.

So some day people may buy bioluminescent body modification treatment.

Imagine! A bioluminescent form of a tattoo! Only shows when you want it to!

 

 

[kerbiloid]

24 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

What portion of the body would he use? Light up the middle of his forehead?

The given fireflies don't use foreheads.

[magnemoe]

3 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

The given fireflies don't use foreheads.

But something humanoid would if they used it for lighting. Now something like horns or antennas with the light emitting in an dish would probably be more effective because its not blinding you 
Could it work, well with good eyesight in the dark think cats, probably at close range and for foraging not hunting as you would be very visible, you could also not activate it if hunting. 

[kerbiloid]

24 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

But something humanoid would if they used it for lighting.

Don't start the offtopic.

Quote

Humanoid With Firefly Light Emission 

P.S.
Though, the formula stays same for any radiating black body.
 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Well... As to efficiency, unless it was a useful or desirable trait, it's likely to atrophy quickly regardless of the efficiency. 

Some bioluminescent animals only have a few lines or places they illuminate, where others have significant percentage of their bodies dedicated to the effort. 

So what purpose (other than cosmetic) would the human have for this ability?  Does it increase the likelihood of successful mating?  Does it mean that they use less energy acquiring food?  Are they better able to communicate and thus increase the survivability of the offspring? 

I think you need to figure out these things (to know what percentage of the skin needs this adaptation) and then you can use the math to figure out how much energy they need to fuel the purpose. 

Also - what is the cost or tradeoff?  Why do they need to be luminous?  What can they give up to get this ability? (this should be driven by the environment) 

I suggest that current humans are fabulous generalists adapted to all environments on this planet - so those humans need a totally different, limited environment that they cannot leave for multiple generations for this to be even remotely beneficial 

[kerbiloid]

I would presume that a single LED flashlight is enough, so probably a watt or so.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Don't start the offtopic.

P.S.
Though, the formula stays same for any radiating black body.
 

My point is that fireflies use the light to attract mates not to light up stuff so having the light in the tail works well for them . Now if you had an monkey style tail it could be an 3rd hand with an touch but something directional would be better, if its just to make you visible its much easier. 

[Spacescifi]

3 hours ago, magnemoe said:

But something humanoid would if they used it for lighting. Now something like horns or antennas with the light emitting in an dish would probably be more effective because its not blinding you 
Could it work, well with good eyesight in the dark think cats, probably at close range and for foraging not hunting as you would be very visible, you could also not activate it if hunting. 

 

Oh come on.... you know sarcasm is his his thing by now.

I actually thought of this idea because of my working enviroment. It's often darkened and handheld flashlights are not ideal because you need both to work with.

So I thought what if... and the thread!

Cats actually see worse in broad daylight (more blurry) and better in darkness (clearer).

You will notice their eyes shrink to slits in brightness but expand in the shade or darknesss to absorb more light.

 

A humanoid with human vision and a his own bio-flashlight gets the best of both worlds I think.

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Well... As to efficiency, unless it was a useful or desirable trait, it's likely to atrophy quickly regardless of the efficiency. 

Some bioluminescent animals only have a few lines or places they illuminate, where others have significant percentage of their bodies dedicated to the effort. 

So what purpose (other than cosmetic) would the human have for this ability?  Does it increase the likelihood of successful mating?  Does it mean that they use less energy acquiring food?  Are they better able to communicate and thus increase the survivability of the offspring? 

I think you need to figure out these things (to know what percentage of the skin needs this adaptation) and then you can use the math to figure out how much energy they need to fuel the purpose. 

Also - what is the cost or tradeoff?  Why do they need to be luminous?  What can they give up to get this ability? (this should be driven by the environment) 

I suggest that current humans are fabulous generalists adapted to all environments on this planet - so those humans need a totally different, limited environment that they cannot leave for multiple generations for this to be even remotely beneficial 

 

I kind of said it already in the OP. Their homeworld's day/night cycle is 60 hours long.

Having bio-light helps when you are working and living under a night longer than 24 hours. Especially prior to technology.

 

We aee talking 30 hours of daylight and 30 hours of night every day!

Edited January 29, 2022 by Spacescifi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

16 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

We aee talking 30 hours of daylight and 30 hours of night every day!

Any writer can make something work - but even with those numbers, luminescence does not seem necessary.  Most luminescent critters live in the dark depths of the oceans or in caves with virtually permanent darkness (often by choice - see the squids/krill that only come up at night to feed / breed).  With a working day/night cycle, the luminescence is unnecessary for fully half the day.  And you're looking for light to work by; but 'work' is a modern affectation.  Biology doesn't care about 'work' (except for little things like if you work hard, you get stronger).  Biology generally cares about keeping the critter alive in order for it to make more babies.

The critter with this ability might evolve to the point where it uses the ability to help it work... but it also might be culturally shameful to do so; using mating signals while trying to fix a toilet is likely weird (i.e. we already have to deal with Plumber's Crack... but do you want him aroused by your dirty pipes?)

[Spacescifi]

3 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Any writer can make something work - but even with those numbers, luminescence does not seem necessary.  Most luminescent critters live in the dark depths of the oceans or in caves with virtually permanent darkness (often by choice - see the squids/krill that only come up at night to feed / breed).  With a working day/night cycle, the luminescence is unnecessary for fully half the day.  And you're looking for light to work by; but 'work' is a modern affectation.  Biology doesn't care about 'work' (except for little things like if you work hard, you get stronger).  Biology generally cares about keeping the critter alive in order for it to make more babies.

The critter with this ability might evolve to the point where it uses the ability to help it work... but it also might be culturally shameful to do so; using mating signals while trying to fix a toilet is likely weird (i.e. we already have to deal with Plumber's Crack... but do you want him aroused by your dirty pipes?)

 

Actually 30 hours of daylight will make it hot enough that you will likely go indoors at some point or under shade.... and there once more bio-luminescence comes in handy... before tech anyway.

And you can forget evolutionary bias since I favor aliens that were artificially built by other intelligent races before them anyway.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Spacescifi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

4 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

you can forget evolutionary bias since I favor aliens that were artificially built by other intelligent races before them anyway.

You can do a lot with that, true.

[kerbiloid]

1. A glass of caught fireflies solves the problem without the body modding.

2. 30 h of night = 30 h of cold, every... hm... twoday. Either they can see in the dark, or they are sleep.

3. Big cats and wild pre-dogs would be glad to see a monkey with a flashlight. The hubting hasn't ever been so easy.

[Gargamel]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:20 PM, Spacescifi said:

 

Cats actually see worse in broad daylight (more blurry) and better in darkness (clearer).

You will notice their eyes shrink to slits in brightness but expand in the shade or darknesss to absorb more light.

This is untrue from my research.    Yes, they see better than most creatures at night, due to the number of rods in their eyes, but they still see better in the daylight than they do at night.  
 

the dilation/ construction of pupils (cats, dogs, humans) is to regulate the amount of light that gets in.  The tighter the aperture of your iris, the less light that gets in, but the more it acts like a pinhole camera, increasing focus.    
 

As long as a creature is not being blinded by the light they are taking in, focus  will always be better in well lit vs dim environments.  

[kerbiloid]

Afair, cats jsee 6 times better than a human in the darkness.

And they see as well as a human in the daylight, but they don't care because they sleep 20/24.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Gargamel said:

This is untrue from my research.    Yes, they see better than most creatures at night, due to the number of rods in their eyes, but they still see better in the daylight than they do at night.  
 

the dilation/ construction of pupils (cats, dogs, humans) is to regulate the amount of light that gets in.  The tighter the aperture of your iris, the less light that gets in, but the more it acts like a pinhole camera, increasing focus.    
 

As long as a creature is not being blinded by the light they are taking in, focus  will always be better in well lit vs dim environments.  

 

Perhaps you may be correct.

 

I was going off this:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCpWWe2Hadw

[Gargamel]

42 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Perhaps you may be correct.

 

I was going off this:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCpWWe2Hadw

Which says nothing about them seeing better at night than in the day.  It says they see better at night than humans, along with better peripheral vision and attuned  to  movement.  
 

edit: But I can see how they phrased it to be ambiguous. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Gargamel

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

The big cats prefer to hunt when they have an advantage - the night increases the likelihood of a good stalk.  So the behavior is attuned to the inability of the prey species to detect their approach rather than suggesting that cats see better at night than day. 

They just see better at night than the critters they eat. 

@Spacescifiyour 'aliens messed with the genetics of another species could be, effectively, a slave story.  The Unobtaniym ores are too deep for strip mining and the glow people are required because they are cost effective.

But as an adaptation for surface dwellers who enjoy the day night cycle? 

[Spacescifi]

13 hours ago, Gargamel said:

Which says nothing about them seeing better at night than in the day.  It says they see better at night than humans, along with better peripheral vision and attuned  to  movement.  
 

edit: But I can see how they phrased it to be ambiguous. 

 

I guess I was not totally wrong, since cats need whiskers since up close their eyes lose focus. In other words all cats are farsighted (the domestic ones).