Developer Insights #13 – KSP2 Resource System

[mattinoz]

On 2/27/2022 at 5:10 AM, starcaptain said:

Still picturing that silly monorail mod idea I posited: can requests be made so that are sent or arrive in block-like increments? 

I know that "rate-based" means basically Flowrate and assuming the resource (say, a fluid, or even electricity or solar energy) is arriving by some kind of direct pipeline (fuel pipe, wire, line-of-sight to a star, etc.) Would it be a manner of programming to build a flowrate so that the resource "is delivered" as, say, a tank of fuel that's 5000L all at once (because the tanker arrived at the depot) instead of 50L/min ?

Or is the core of the system made so that the only way fuel can be transferred is between containers with the flowrate? Meaning if I want to run a fuel delivery railroad, I still gotta discreetly transfer fuel from the depot tank to each railroad car.

Isn’t there a nuc engine in game that works by dropping bombs out the back and detonating them every few seconds based on throttle settings.  If system handles that  then isn’t that conceptual similar to a bucket of x tonnes of resources turning up every few minutes. It is a flow that averages to x per second but visually could be contained in bursts. 

[PlutoISaPlanet]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

8. Will resource collection also be necessary on Kerbin?

I've had this same question. Personally, I hope not, but who knows.

[obnox twin]

12 hours ago, Vl3d said:

4. Will Kerbals require life-support resources?

I am guessing this will be talked about the upcoming colonies feature video

 

12 hours ago, Vl3d said:

6. How will resource collection and transportation be automated? Will we have automated rover / train / helicopter / plane / rocket transports? Will we have a logistics map-view mode?

This most likely like Bon voyage mod but bon voyage adds automatic moving things like move supplies from one modded colony to the other using rovers (Talking about Ksp 1 bon voyage mod) But I am guessing its going to set up like this using bon voyage

[obnox twin]

To clarify I meant its going to be like the Bon voyage mod but more automated

[Scotty6644]

Would "Resources work properly at high warp speeds" be a correct summary of this?

[Quodios Kerman]

How often do the "loaded" vessels request their resources to the resource management system in a default(vanilla) game setting?

[darthgently]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:22 AM, Vl3d said:

Some specific questions please:

1. Regarding "global" craft resource usage (RCS monopropellant and Vernor fuel): will we have the possibility to create stage/sub-craft resource groups, so for example RCS only uses fuel from the currently controlled lower stage and not from upper stages? This can be done now through manual priority setting on individual tanks, but we need better separation.

2. Somewhat related to previous point, will we have an improved fuel transfer interface (between tank groups, not only individual tanks)?

3. Can you clarify if we will have continuous resource usage during time warp / for on-rails craft? Does this extend to being able to accelerate during time warp / on-rails mode?

4. Will Kerbals require life-support resources?

5. Will we have resource transfer conveyors / tubes / hoses / wires?

6. How will resource collection and transportation be automated? Will we have automated rover / train / helicopter / plane / rocket transports? Will we have a logistics map-view mode?

7. Will resource scarcity and competition be integrated in multiplayer?

8. Will resource collection also be necessary on Kerbin?

Don't forget pipelines.  Much easier to simulate than rails or rovers and such for automated resource transfer purposes.  I hope they include something like this

[boolybooly]

Sounds like interstellar burns can be left running while time warping, which would be nice.

There would probably need to be some way to plan the burn and stop it when completed, or an interrupt like the node alarms.

Its good the collision physics have been improved too... wouldn't seem right to scoot through a planet at a significant fraction of C.

[darthgently]

19 hours ago, boolybooly said:

Sounds like interstellar burns can be left running while time warping, which would be nice.

There would probably need to be some way to plan the burn and stop it when completed, or an interrupt like the node alarms.

Its good the collision physics have been improved too... wouldn't seem right to scoot through a planet at a significant fraction of C.

Agreed.  Even for intrasystem ion burns this will be a godsend.  I'm thinking the burn will stop when the node dv is below some threshold, but an alarm would work as well with some margin.

As for collision improvements, I'll be happy if parts on the same craft never start spontaneously colliding with each other via kraken magic and spurious accelerations

[SkyFall2489]

What about continual resupply missions? It seems like once you have made a few munar orbit LqdH3 supply runs from your mining colony to the fuel depot, it's going to get boring, and you've proven that you can fly that route. I'd like there to be an option to automate these supply runs once you've done them already.

 

Sort of like this:

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by SkyFall2489

[PlutoISaPlanet]

On 3/5/2022 at 2:27 PM, SkyFall2489 said:

What about continual resupply missions? It seems like once you have made a few munar orbit LqdH3 supply runs from your mining colony to the fuel depot, it's going to get boring, and you've proven that you can fly that route. I'd like there to be an option to automate these supply runs once you've done them already.

 

Sort of like this:

 

I believe the devs already confirmed automated resupply missions.

[InfernoSD]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:41 PM, Scotty6644 said:

Would "Resources work properly at high warp speeds" be a correct summary of this?

Yes. In theory this enables any system which relies on fuel, electricity, or other resources to work properly over any span of time and at any distance. If we assume that KSP2 also correctly simulates solar power, this would mean that any satellite, station, vessel, or rover that depends on solar power will lose that power during nights. So for example you could have a relay satellite that runs out of battery and goes dark for part of every orbit. It also means that mining vessels will function how they should, only draining electricity that exists.

One might suppose the same could apply to other forms of sporadic power. If wind power exists, it might fluctuate up and down over time and affect your operations accordingly. Not sure about geothermal or other forms.

Interestingly, it could also be thought to apply to atmospheric flight, if KSP2 also made atmospheric flight work properly over any span of time and at any distance. This would allow you to make an in-atmosphere satellite by burning fuel at an extremely low rate.

Interstellar burns for sure, but the possibilities are endless.

I'm curious what "Resource Flow Graph" means.  Is it a visual graph for the player to see, or does it have some other definition?

[Redneck]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:10 AM, t_v said:

 so we cannot make any assumptions. 

 

but....umm.. i just did! 

[daninplainsight]

On 3/7/2022 at 9:20 AM, InfernoSD said:

I'm curious what "Resource Flow Graph" means.  Is it a visual graph for the player to see, or does it have some other definition?

That's almost certainly referring to a graph data structure, since it's a member of the flow management subsystem, which is "responsible for creating and caching the resource container groups and processing Flow Requests." A graph data structure basically contains a series of nodes (vertices) and the connections (edges)  between them, which is pretty well-suited to simulating a series of fuel/resource containers and the tubes (or whatever) that allow resources to flow between them. You can illustrate it kinda like this:

Spoiler

Using a graph is certainly how I would code it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Here's Wikipedia article about it for further reading.

[Vl3d]

I was reading about Kerbalism and found this text that I think summarizes parts of the OP:

"Kerbalism introduce something that is absent from the base game : processing of unloaded vessels. Unloaded vessels in KSP are a placeholder object containing only saved data about the state of the parts and modules. The only thing that is processed on them is their position.

To allow our features to work on them we had to recreate everything from scratch, and in particular the vessel environment conditions evaluation and the resource processing system. They compute the resources consumption and production needed for life support and other features. This include ISRU, converters, fuel cells, RTGs, reactors..."

[qwerbo]

March 17th and still no release date? The possible release dates according to the budget starts in only 2 weeks!

Edited March 17, 2022 by qwerbo

[RB101]

On 2/25/2022 at 5:32 PM, gussi111 said:

So eventually you can run out of resources in a specific spot and would have to relocate? Very interesting, I'm very glad that all this is going much more in depth compared to KSP1.

I really hope that this feature can be customised when setting the difficulty of a save,

For example: where you can set whether recourse deposits can be depleted, and be able to independently change this for individual recourses.

This would give players much needed flexibility in the type of experience they have 

Edited April 25, 2022 by RB101

[PopinFRESH]

 

On 2/28/2022 at 7:41 AM, PlutoISaPlanet said:

On 2/28/2022 at 5:22 AM, Vl3d said:

8. Will resource collection also be necessary on Kerbin?

I've had this same question. Personally, I hope not, but who knows.

I would expect, and hope, so. I'm not sure why you would want one planet to be handled differently than any other planet you colonize. I'd think of it like Kerbin will be the first planet we colonize by building out the KSC(s) and supporting facilities.

I suspect that you will get the intro tutorial portions of how colony building works by building your KSC on Kerbin which will likely include setting up the fuel/resource systems. I don't expect "resource collection" to be at the depth of something like Satisfactory, etc.. I think they will balance the level of depth for this at something along the lines of 1) Planet has X, Y, Z, resource types. 2) Maybe have some simplistic gradient of resource concentrations that will provide more or less resource flow depending on concentration. 3) Is there a mining/refinery unit to gather resource X, Y, or Z.

[swjr-swis]

On 2/27/2022 at 12:20 PM, TROPtastic said:

What's the advantage of this system over one that shuts off when a resource runs out? As someone with 0 experience with game design, I don't understand why repeatedly sending request responses that say "0 resource remaining" could be useful.

I imagine because a resource container that runs empty at one point doesn't necessarily stay empty from that point on, so it makes sense to allow continuous requests if at some point one could actually provide the resource again.

An easy to picture example: Battery -> lights. Lights turn on, start requesting EC continuously at say 0.1 EC/sec. Battery sees those requests and tries to provide the asked-for EC, until the battery runs out. Lights keep asking EC but get 0. Now consider that this is a probe on the night side of a body, and there is a deployed solar panel on-board. Dawn arrives and the solar panel starts producing EC. If the lights are allowed to continue request EC, the EC can now automatically be provided again and the lights turn on again.

Bad example maybe because in KSP1 engines and lights simply switch off entirely when the required resource flow stops, forcing us to re-activate them manually. But it works that way for probe cores and reaction wheels: both need EC to work, stop working when no EC is available, and automatically start working again when EC is generated again.

I'm hoping they will consider allowing all resource using parts to work like cores and reaction wheels, and stay 'switched on' to start working again once the depleted resource is available again.

 

Hmm. Forum playing tricks on me again. I thought I was responding to the just created post in the Devs insight about KSP2 bug thread. Apologies for the necro.

Edited May 24, 2022 by swjr-swis
Oy

[PlutoISaPlanet]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:36 AM, PopinFRESH said:

 

I would expect, and hope, so. I'm not sure why you would want one planet to be handled differently than any other planet you colonize. I'd think of it like Kerbin will be the first planet we colonize by building out the KSC(s) and supporting facilities.

I suspect that you will get the intro tutorial portions of how colony building works by building your KSC on Kerbin which will likely include setting up the fuel/resource systems. I don't expect "resource collection" to be at the depth of something like Satisfactory, etc.. I think they will balance the level of depth for this at something along the lines of 1) Planet has X, Y, Z, resource types. 2) Maybe have some simplistic gradient of resource concentrations that will provide more or less resource flow depending on concentration. 3) Is there a mining/refinery unit to gather resource X, Y, or Z.

Personally, I'd rather start collecting resources on the Mun or Minmus, but you make some good points. 

[GigFiz]

On 5/24/2022 at 1:36 AM, PopinFRESH said:

 

I would expect, and hope, so. I'm not sure why you would want one planet to be handled differently than any other planet you colonize. I'd think of it like Kerbin will be the first planet we colonize by building out the KSC(s) and supporting facilities.

I suspect that you will get the intro tutorial portions of how colony building works by building your KSC on Kerbin which will likely include setting up the fuel/resource systems. I don't expect "resource collection" to be at the depth of something like Satisfactory, etc.. I think they will balance the level of depth for this at something along the lines of 1) Planet has X, Y, Z, resource types. 2) Maybe have some simplistic gradient of resource concentrations that will provide more or less resource flow depending on concentration. 3) Is there a mining/refinery unit to gather resource X, Y, or Z.

On 5/25/2022 at 2:35 PM, PlutoISaPlanet said:

Personally, I'd rather start collecting resources on the Mun or Minmus, but you make some good points. 

Agreed. I would generally assume that since they have a fully fledged space program with the whole space center built (even un-upgraded), that they have their resources and supply chains on Kerbin already sorted out. Plus I am sure they want to lead with the primary gameplay system/loop, ie: building and flying spacecraft, and a complicated auxiliary one like that is something to be introduced to us after we have our space legs under us (at the point of  establishing a first permanent colony is a really natural time for it, anyway; it means you are fully comfortable with the basic essentials of spaceflight, likely have some space stations and satellites in place, and are now stretching out further. Starting off with resource management feels a bit like putting the rocket cart before the space horse)

 

 

[PopinFRESH]

On 7/7/2022 at 3:13 PM, GigFiz said:

Agreed. I would generally assume that since they have a fully fledged space program with the whole space center built (even un-upgraded), that they have their resources and supply chains on Kerbin already sorted out. Plus I am sure they want to lead with the primary gameplay system/loop, ie: building and flying spacecraft, and a complicated auxiliary one like that is something to be introduced to us after we have our space legs under us (at the point of  establishing a first permanent colony is a really natural time for it, anyway; it means you are fully comfortable with the basic essentials of spaceflight, likely have some space stations and satellites in place, and are now stretching out further. Starting off with resource management feels a bit like putting the rocket cart before the space horse)

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting that colony building or resource management will be introduced before the spaceflight mechanics. I'm saying I think it's reasonable that they will introduce the mechanics of colony building and resource management as tutorials in building out the KSC. In other words, once you get to a point in the missions where you've landed on the Mun the next missions will be the tutorial by upgrading the KSC and then launching a colony lander to the Mun to establish a base on the Mun.  What I'm suggesting is that the building and upgrading the KSC on Kerbal (I'd expect) will use the same game mechanic systems as the colony building; I'm not saying it will be the first thing you are thrust into.

[GigFiz]

12 hours ago, PopinFRESH said:

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting that colony building or resource management will be introduced before the spaceflight mechanics. I'm saying I think it's reasonable that they will introduce the mechanics of colony building and resource management as tutorials in building out the KSC. In other words, once you get to a point in the missions where you've landed on the Mun the next missions will be the tutorial by upgrading the KSC and then launching a colony lander to the Mun to establish a base on the Mun.  What I'm suggesting is that the building and upgrading the KSC on Kerbal (I'd expect) will use the same game mechanic systems as the colony building; I'm not saying it will be the first thing you are thrust into.

I does seem that I misunderstood what you were getting at, apologies. For whatever reason, it gave me the impression of starting with the KSC as an empty field to start with, and you have to first set up and build the basics before you can start your space program, and that...would actually be kind of awesome as an option for a later play through, but not really appropriate for the first one, especially for Kerbal newcomers. However, as you have pointed out, that is not actually what you were saying.

So, as to your actual point, I think it really depends what the colony building systems ended up looking like in the finished game and how much freedom you have to personalize the space center as you build it out. On the one hand, it could be really cool to have something more than just 'click to upgrade', but on the other I could see it bogging things down potentially for some people. I think a good alternative could be to have another launch site on Kerbin that unlocks at the point and you could build it up from scratch; it would be a good way to do just what you are proposing, and a second launch site would be cool thing to have anyway. Doing it that way would also make it great way to learn the building mechanics first, but one that also be skipped freely for anyone that would rather learn through the creation of their first Munar base.

I do think, though, that this should be just for the building mechanics. I stand by the opinion that resource management (aside from currency/rep/science, or whatever they replace those with) should never come in to play on Kerbin and that the Kerbals should already have all their supply chain issues sorted out, as it were. It would also create an issue where it is either an extra thing to fiddle with just to keep your space program running and, personally, that is something I really do not want, or it's something you do once then ignore it and so may as well not even be there (plus, if there implement life support resource management it would be one of the first ones to learn, but would make no sense to have on Kerbin). Another reason is because I think that the basic colony building part should really be introduced first, with all your supplies and buildings being launched from Kerbin to start with, then introducing the basic resource management once you have a simple colony established and adding complexity as your colony gets bigger.

That is my 2₭¢ (kerbal cents )at least. It is definitely an interesting idea though, and I do think there is certainly merit to the possibility of learning the basic building mechanics at home on Kerbin

[J.Random]

The beginning of this "insight" creates an impression that one of the core systems - resource management - is still being in design phase two years past original release date. Troubling.

[whatsEJstandfor]

26 minutes ago, J.Random said:

The beginning of this "insight" creates an impression that one of the core systems - resource management - is still being in design phase two years past original release date. Troubling.

I don't see how you're reading it that way. What part specifically makes you think that?