Procedural solar panels

[Pthigrivi]

I've recently starting playing KSP again after a long hiatus (okay maybe 6 months) and somewhat in anticipation of KSP2's acceleration under warp I've been messing more with ion engines and other low-thrust/high ISP modded engines. I might be wrong but I think we can see a nuclear reactor in one of the new clips, so there may be other high-output options for power generation, but for much of the inner Kerbolar system solar panels may well be the lighter option over chemical or nuclear sources. The obvious application are low-mass orbital probes, but you could also use larger electric propulsion engines for crewed interplanetary shuttles. Ive personally found it a really interesting puzzle to skip big banks of batteries and just plan all my burns in daylight outside of planetary shadows. The trick is mass is always a huge factor, and since they built procedural radiators maybe procedural solar panels would allow us to more finely tune mass and geometry and make this kind of puzzle more enticing? You usually want just two big tracking arrays so that you can rotate your vessel about the z axis and always keep your panels unblocked and broad to the star, so having tight control over their size would be a huge boon. 

In the EA video they showed a couple of clips of someone modeling what might be solar panels--they look a bit different from the procedural radiators we saw in the show and tell. I wonder if some of these parameters might be tunable in the VAB?

[CyanAstro]

When procedural radiators were announced many people suspected that there would be procedural solar panels too. Nate Simpson replied and said that the team hadn't really considered it because there are many more ways of making power in KSP 2 than just solar panels. I'd like to see procedural solar panels though, maybe even ones that you can "wrap" around a ship like on the starship HLS or crew dragon.

[stephensmat]

When Spore came out, they had Procedural parts on EVERYTHING. But you make a creature with bigger teeth, or a sleeker design, it didn't make it faster or stronger. You make a vehicle which is basically a box with a hundred fast wheels all over it, and it was faster, despite the ludicrous design. This is because the stats of each creation was decided by the ratio of parts used. 'This' part had a higher attack value, so you use a dozen of them and click 'attack', and the hit counter responds accordingly. Easy to understand and exploit, and it made for some wildly creative inventions in the editors; but it was hardly realistic.

I wonder if KSP2 will look for a realistic version. If so, the parts list could be significantly streamlined. "This is a level one Solar Panel. By surface area, it generates 'x' amount of power and 'y' amount of weight. Go ahead and make one as big as you want; the stats will adjust to match."

It would work with Radiators, wings, and Fuel Tanks too.

[COLLOSALSMURF]

As CyanAstro said: Nate Simpson already stated that procedural solar panels were deemed functionally useless given the introduction of interstellar travel and far future technologies being introduced in KSP 2, however in my opinion I think procedural solar panels are a no brainer for freedom of customization in designing spacecraft, especially since the news that the early access release of KSP 2 is only launching with the stock solar system which makes the afformentioned points rather redundant. I think there hasn't been enough emphesis on the cosmetic side of craft building in KSP, especially since after a few thousand hours in the game players like myself stop worrying about acheiving purely functional spacecraft and tend to find joy in just creating things which simply look aesthetically pleasing/recreating real world or conceptual spacecraft. This is where I think procedural solar panels could fill a niche. Unfortunately I doubt it's high on the list of priorities for the development team atm if ever :/

[Stephensan]

17 minutes ago, stephensmat said:

When Spore came out, they had Procedural parts on EVERYTHING. But you make a creature with bigger teeth, or a sleeker design, it didn't make it faster or stronger. You make a vehicle which is basically a box with a hundred fast wheels all over it, and it was faster, despite the ludicrous design. This is because the stats of each creation was decided by the ratio of parts used. 'This' part had a higher attack value, so you use a dozen of them and click 'attack', and the hit counter responds accordingly. Easy to understand and exploit, and it made for some wildly creative inventions in the editors; but it was hardly realistic.

I wonder if KSP2 will look for a realistic version. If so, the parts list could be significantly streamlined. "This is a level one Solar Panel. By surface area, it generates 'x' amount of power and 'y' amount of weight. Go ahead and make one as big as you want; the stats will adjust to match."

It would work with Radiators, wings, and Fuel Tanks too.

there should also be different stages of solar panels

low

medium

high

density solar panels, cheaper to produce, easier for new player to get it on early tech tree without worrying about running out of energy due to being able to create satellites without solar panels etc.

[Pthigrivi]

4 hours ago, COLLOSALSMURF said:

As CyanAstro said: Nate Simpson already stated that procedural solar panels were deemed functionally useless given the introduction of interstellar travel and far future technologies being introduced in KSP 2, however in my opinion I think procedural solar panels are a no brainer for freedom of customization in designing spacecraft, especially since the news that the early access release of KSP 2 is only launching with the stock solar system which makes the afformentioned points rather redundant. I think there hasn't been enough emphesis on the cosmetic side of craft building in KSP, especially since after a few thousand hours in the game players like myself stop worrying about acheiving purely functional spacecraft and tend to find joy in just creating things which simply look aesthetically pleasing/recreating real world or conceptual spacecraft. This is where I think procedural solar panels could fill a niche. Unfortunately I doubt it's high on the list of priorities for the development team atm if ever

There is some nuance here because just having some basic, lightweight, point anywhere PVs to keep the lights on or a probe core alive is no sweat. The panels they have do that just fine. Colonies are also their own animal because you have the flexibility to spread out if you need to (although I'll say understanding latitude and its effect on ideal inclination for fixed or single axis panels would be a nice lesson). The problem is different for PV panels designed to feed engines. For that putting 20 smaller panels wont cut it. You don't want them lined up or pointing out in different angles because depending on your burn orientation the panels will block each other or not be able to face Kerbol. You want exactly two rotating panels that produce exactly the right amount of power to keep things running, because you can rotate your vessel with the panels pointing either N/S or Radial in/radial out and have the panels max their exposure no matter where you're burning. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[jastrone]

tbh we dont need "procedural solar panels. just solar panels with different lenghts. they are already made of small squares so why not just have a slider adding more squares

[Bej Kerman]

37 minutes ago, jastrone said:

tbh we dont need "procedural solar panels. just solar panels with different lenghts. they are already made of small squares so why not just have a slider adding more squares

In other words....

procedural solar panels?

In fact, why not go a small step further and make control as fine as with radiators?

[jastrone]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

In other words....

procedural solar panels?

not really. i doesnt generate a solarpanel it just ads the solar panel more times

[Bej Kerman]

13 minutes ago, jastrone said:

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

In other words....

procedural solar panels?

not really. i doesnt generate a solarpanel it just ads the solar panel more times

So it's procedural.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, jastrone said:

not really. i doesnt generate a solarpanel it just ads the solar panel more times

This is literally the definition of procedural.  You are adding something to the end of the solar panel array by moving a slider.  It's no different than extending the length of a wing, or increasing the mass of a fairing, or adding/removing fuel from a tank.  Procedural.

[Pthigrivi]

Well semantics aside I think the spirit of the idea is right, having some fine tune control over the size and shape of an array. And Im sure Nate's original feeling is right that there are going to be other more attractive power generation sources especially for deep space, so the priority on this might be lessened. The main reason Im interested is that I think being able to warp while under acceleration will probably make a lot of players take a closer look at electric propulsion, and traversing space while conducting burns entirely in sunlight creates a clever kind of navigation puzzle and different way of playing the game. 

[Scarecrow71]

29 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Well semantics aside I think the spirit of the idea is right, having some fine tune control over the size and shape of an array. And Im sure Nate's original feeling is right that there are going to be other more attractive power generation sources especially for deep space, so the priority on this might be lessened. The main reason Im interested is that I think being able to warp while under acceleration will probably make a lot of players take a closer look at electric propulsion, and traversing space while conducting burns entirely in sunlight creates a clever kind of navigation puzzle and different way of playing the game. 

What I think I'd like to see in terms of procedural solar panels isn't just increasing length or width, but in changing from square to circular.  Or at least having the option of having circular panels that are procedural in expanding or contracting outwards/inwards from the center.  That would make for some interesting design considerations in the situation you described above.  At least to me, anyhow.

[jastrone]

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

So it's procedural.

doesnt have too be. especially not since its only one axis and it would probably not need to be a float just full numbers.  it needs to be animated and procedural animations are hard to do

17 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

This is literally the definition of procedural.  You are adding something to the end of the solar panel array by moving a slider.  It's no different than extending the length of a wing, or increasing the mass of a fairing, or adding/removing fuel from a tank.  Procedural.

doesnt need too.  wings have hundreds of combinations that works with leangth width shape and controll surfaces while solar panels would have like 5 maybe. 1 setting has 1 panel second 2 panels and so on. like you wouldnt need a solar panel with 4.214 panels. you would just need full number settings.

Edited October 26, 2022 by jastrone

[Scarecrow71]

3 hours ago, jastrone said:

doesnt need too.  wings have hundreds of combinations that works with leangth width shape and controll surfaces while solar panels would have like 5 maybe. 1 setting has 1 panel second 2 panels and so on. like you wouldnt need a solar panel with 4.214 panels. you would just need full number settings.

That is still procedural.  Whether you add a full panel or a fraction of one, it is still procedural because the length or number of panels is variable based on the position of the slider.

[magnemoe]

Make me wonder if you can launch procedural radiators folded inn?
 

[jastrone]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

That is still procedural.  Whether you add a full panel or a fraction of one, it is still procedural because the length or number of panels is variable based on the position of the slider.

not if you made all models beforehand.  its just shows a different model depending on where you put the slider

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, jastrone said:

not if you made all models beforehand.  its just shows a different model depending on where you put the slider

I'm not sure what you are thinking about or how you are wrapping your mind around this.  But you are still wrong.

You only have to make 2 models:  a solar panel attached to a rod, and the base of the panel architecture that the rod is attached to.  When you move the slider, you attach one more panel to the end of the current array.  That's it.  Think of the word BANANA.  A lot of people comedically stretch this out at the end multiple times, such as BANANANANANANA.  You don't have multiple bananas here; you simply keep adding the syllable NA endlessly.  Same concept.  You don't have multiple models, you just keep adding the base model to the end of the array.

[t_v]

3 hours ago, jastrone said:

not if you made all models beforehand.  its just shows a different model depending on where you put the slider

So, if I’m understanding correctly, you are asking for a limited number of part variants on a limited number of parts. I personally don’t see the need to exactly balance power input and consumption since it fluctuates anyways and the only additional gameplay you gain is moving a slider. As such, I’m fine with a few solar panel options going up to a very large size. But the question arises- what if someone wants a panel of 7000 units by 1 unit? And if the developers make that model, what about 7000 units by 5 units? It would be better for complete customization to make it procedural; there’s a limit that a lot of people reach when working with a set selection of sizes and shapes. 

[SciMan]

To be honest, I think procedural solar panels are almost a shoe-in.

Let me explain.

We already know we're going to have procedural radiators right?

What's a solar panel but a radiator with the energy going in instead of out?

I assume they'll be simulating solar heating on the procedural radiators, and from that it's only a short (coding) leap to procedural solar panels, right?

Now I don't know if we'll get procedural PIVOTING or procedural DEPLOYING solar panels, since I haven't seen those kinds of radiators as procedural parts yet. But it wouldn't surprise me to see them, because as has been said in this thread, the only difference between a procedural radiator and a non procedural one is if you can tile the bit in the middle or not.

The art side of things might take more to sort out than the coding side, in reality.

And yes, that would indeed make all solar panels look sort of "samey" but that's not a horrible thing. If it is seen as a negative thing, then it's just more work for the art department to add solar panels (or radiators, or wing parts) that look different from the other ones while still being procedural.