A case for adding money to KSP2

[Ryaja]

1 minute ago, Pthigrivi said:

You’re not understanding. The value isn’t just a calculation. Its relative to where its coming from, where its being delivered to, what tech levels and what level of processing each party has access to, and how much each player feels like they actually need x or y resource delivered to a particular place, when they need it, and how much they may or may not trust the person they’re dealing with. There’s no useful exchange rate. Its all situational and contextual. You’ve inadvertently created an incentive process where the way to get ahead is to exploit desperate players and local resource scarcity for leverage, potentially scamming them out of delivery entirely because they can just go cry to World Bank of Kerbin for recompense. None of this has anything to do with the core game. 

That'll happen with a bater system too.

[Pthigrivi]

17 minutes ago, Ryaja said:

That'll happen with a bater system too.

So, in the mortgage crisis of 2008 banks knew what they were selling was garbage, they knew everyone they were selling to would get burned, they knew under normal circumstances leveraging themselves out 40:1 on trash investments would bury them, but at the end of the day they also knew the government would bail them out and taxpayers and homeowners would absorb the losses so they went ahead and did it anyway. This is what is classically known as a moral hazard. This is exactly what “if you get burned you can just get reimbursed on Kerbin” creates. An incentive is being unintentionally created for abuse and exploitation. As I pointed out earlier with the late-game player trying to leverage access to antimatter against an early game player the same incentives for abuse and leverage are not present when trades are in-kind and situational. The motive to hoard resources you don’t need are not present because you actually need to pay for storage and transportation in teal terms. Money doesn’t have storage or transportation costs (unless maybe you’d like to introduce interplanetary taxation and tariffs?) and so its a perfect vehicle for hoarding and exploitation in a way no physical resource could be. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[darthgently]

If no one wants to buy it, it has no value at the current time no matter how much it cost to produce and transport.  That is how markets work.   We need a new trait of "lawyer" for breach of contract situations.  Or players could require payment up front.  Or half up front, half on delivery.  That is fairly common

[Pthigrivi]

30 minutes ago, darthgently said:

If no one wants to buy it, it has no value at the current time no matter how much it cost to produce and transport.  That is how markets work.   We need a new trait of "lawyer" for breach of contract situations.  Or players could require payment up front.  Or half up front, half on delivery.  That is fairly common

Maybe Im just far too aware of what happens in the real world and can’t help but guess that humans gonna human. Im saying KSP isn't about that bs. When Im playing my little green nerd space game Im not trying to deal with labor contracts, Im not trying to wrangle contract disputes over who delivered what when to where, and Im not crying to some fictional credit agency for clawbacks. I just want to play the game. None of this has anything to do with KSP. I say the same thing about part failures and complex social management simulations and turning KSP into an MMO. I don’t have any interest in Kerbal Spreadsheet Simulator. Nor in whatever pseudo legal madness we’re trying to create with in-game enforcement of player to player contracts. I cant think of a better way to suck all the fun out of the experience. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[darthgently]

Just now, Pthigrivi said:

Maybe Im just far too aware of what happens in the real world and can’t help but guess that humans gonna human. Im saying KSP isn't about that bs. When Im playing my little green nerd space game Im not trying to deal with labor contracts, Im not trying to wrangle contract disputes, and Im not crying to some fictional credit agency for clawbacks. I just want to play the game. None of this has anything to do with KSP. I say the same thing about part failures and complex social management simulations and turning KSP into an MMO. I don’t have any interest in Kerbal Spreadsheet Simulator. Nor in whatever pseudo legal madness we’re trying to create with in-game enforcement of player to player contracts. I cant think of a better way to suck all the fun out of the experience. 

No argument from me.  I don't want all that in KSP either.  But I do like the idea of online simulated economies where people who think a given political/economic system is something they think is better in theory they can "live" in it for awhile and see how it works out.  But all they really need to do is look around the real world

[Drakenred65]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

You’re not understanding. The value isn’t just a calculation. Its relative to where its coming from, where its being delivered to, what tech levels and what level of processing each party has access to, and how much each player feels like they actually need x or y resource delivered to a particular place, when they need it, and how much they may or may not trust the person they’re dealing with. 

I can easily see where there is a situation where…

 

Kerbin is resource depleted, mun and minmus slightly less so,

 

Eve having more of certain chemicals but Gravitytax

 

Moho home to more heavy  metal and elements, 

 

 

Duna is where I’m ??? . . . maybe a source of nukes?

 

Jool  Can you say Hydrogen? Protium? Deuterium? Tritium? He3? Oh my! And it’s currently the outermost major planet.,. Apart from 

Eeloo….maybe let’s you find planet ^???O_? If it’s out there.

 

Dres, unless they change their minds and decide it’s like 16 Psyche or something… 

the problem is that if the ksp2 player version of Rover dude turns up in a multiplayer competitive match vs the average newbi  (or worse, someone like me and my ideas about a Konsumerism mod . . Yah I was dumb .) money or no he’s going to power through everything unless he’s unlucky.

 

granted…that may be an extreme example.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Drakenred65

[Drakenred65]

I wonder if I should start calling  it planet ^???O_?  Since that seems to be what was in the tutorial, I think
 

 

[Fletch4]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:31 AM, Drakenred65 said:

I’m not sure how you can somehow have money and not earn it in game. It’s not like some of us are randomly going to turn into Bernard L Madoff after all and start  randomly claiming  unearned money that does not exist.

 

well yah, a number of online games have had players pull similar scams . I’m just not sure how they could pull something like that off.

if ksp is going to be a package content game like ksp 1 is, one could easily go into save game files and change how much currency they have. hell, it could even be an option in the cheat/debug menu.

[Drakenred65]

33 minutes ago, Fletch4 said:

if ksp is going to be a package content game like ksp 1 is, one could easily go into save game files and change how much currency they have. hell, it could even be an option in the cheat/debug menu.

Oh I know that. But if someone is willing to do that in multiplayer, then there’s no point about worrying about currency, because they can edit the files to give them more resources than have been used to date on everyone’s Missle rocket and space program.

[Skorj]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:15 PM, Pthigrivi said:

 Once you’ve added a medium of universal exchange you’ve created a market in which players with easy access to lots of resources can use money to make other players their in-game employees, exchanging a resource (money) which they have lots of to purchase other players time. Thats a dynamic for a deeply exploitive and un-fun multiplayer experience. 

I couldn't disagree more.  Back during the dawn of MMOs, it was very common in EverQuest for high level players to offer gold to low level players for specific items (stuff you'd accumulate at low level and had no use for yet).  It was a lot of fun.  In addition to being a real time-saver for both parties, it was a great excuse to break the ice with strangers and start talking.  Yes, some players were effectively paying other to work for them, and it was fun for everyone.  Players effectively became quest-givers.  Heck, there were people who would wander newb zones and explicitly roleplay quest givers, offering out-sized rewards for doing arbitrary stuff in game, and it was a lot more fun than the same "kill X of Y" quests given by NPCs in WoW, because it was human-to-human in-character socialization. 

We're not talking about Eve Online where the exploitative play was deliberately designed in, and is really hard to avoid if you want to play that game at all.  We're talking about an entirely opt-in experience to play with a particular group of people, or just play with a different group ore solo.

 

[Ryaja]

Hmm, maybe an informal system would work on multiplayer. But I would still prefer a single player option with money too, where you can buy resources from colonies you made for contracts.

[SingABrightSong]

My understanding of KSP2's multiplayer is that it would be a peer-to-peer or user-hosted server arrangement. Established players using currency systems to "exploit" new players is something that happens in an MMO like Eve Online(and in that game that's treated as a feature), but user-hosted game servers would, I think, either be organized "public" servers with rules and moderation, or such ad-hoc and informal arrangements that anyone on the server to begin with would be a personal friend or otherwise trustworthy enough for you to even let them access your computer.

[t_v]

2 hours ago, SingABrightSong said:

it would be a peer-to-peer or user-hosted server arrangement.

Whenever there is a user-hosted option, or there is also the option to host on a server which can accommodate more players. But your point stands that we are probably not looking at a system where you can bring the resources you cheated into a sandbox save and put them into an Exploration mode server. You can exploit new players using any tradable resource system, but in small servers, this activity is going to be either accepted (at which point that server is just not for me) or dealt with using moderation tools. 

[Drakenred65]

The thing is if your already cheating to bring in resources to trade, why not just bring in the resources you need anyway? 
 

the main thing remains though, that an experienced KSPer will always know more about how to play and get ahead than a new player.

 

also a player that has more time than another will get ahead unless it takes everyone login in to unlock an instance.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Drakenred65

[Pthigrivi]

7 hours ago, SingABrightSong said:

My understanding of KSP2's multiplayer is that it would be a peer-to-peer or user-hosted server arrangement. Established players using currency systems to "exploit" new players is something that happens in an MMO like Eve Online(and in that game that's treated as a feature), but user-hosted game servers would, I think, either be organized "public" servers with rules and moderation, or such ad-hoc and informal arrangements that anyone on the server to begin with would be a personal friend or otherwise trustworthy enough for you to even let them access your computer.

We don't know, but yes I'd be pretty surprised if anything like an MMO was incorporated. You might have servers with dozens or possibly hundreds of players though, we just don't know. The real questions is whether a player will be able to port over vessels and bases or abstract resources like science or money when they migrate from one server to another, or if they'd need to start from scratch each time. We had a long conversation about the potential issues with this in another thread which I can't find at the moment. 

And yeah I'm not against players making trade agreements for different resources or agreeing to split up and tackle big projects collectively or whatever they like, I'd just strongly advocate that any such agreements are strictly informal and among friends rather than being structuralized and enforced by the game itself. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Cpt72Bug]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:00 PM, Ryaja said:

That is not a dynamic you want to recreate or reinforce in a game that is principally about learning, creative problem solving, and free exploration.

I second this. Having multiplayer currency will ultimately diminish the spirit of the game. 

[Ryaja]

I think it would benefit for it being toggle able for simple game play but with it toggled on money could add a lot to the game if it was implemented correctly.

[SingABrightSong]

8 hours ago, Ryaja said:

I think it would benefit for it being toggle able for simple game play but with it toggled on money could add a lot to the game if it was implemented correctly.

I'd think it would be something best handled by a server mod like the Minecraft Bukkit mod or its successors. Economy is not a feature in the single-player game but server mods allowed it to be implemented in modified servers that were compatible with unmodified clients, and allowed server owners to tweak the economy according to their ability.

That said, I do think that an "abstract" currency-like commodity is likely to be important to at least some game styles. KSP 2 will not have faster-than-light travel, so a resource that can be transferred as a lightspeed signal instead of an interstellar cargo ship could come in handy.

[Bej Kerman]

45 minutes ago, SingABrightSong said:

KSP 2 will not have faster-than-light travel, so a resource that can be transferred as a lightspeed signal instead of an interstellar cargo ship could come in handy

Sort of undermines the entire challenge of going interstellar, no? Besides the fact that you'd likely be the only one at the destination and that you'd be mining resources yourself anyway.

[linuxgurugamer]

3 hours ago, SingABrightSong said:

KSP 2 will not have faster-than-light travel, so a resource that can be transferred as a lightspeed signal instead of an interstellar cargo ship could come in handy.

mmm, moving a "resource" as a lightspeed signal is so far out of the purview of this game it isn't funny.  While interstellar travel is still science fiction, it is at least conceivable with our current technology.  Moving a resource via a lightspeed signal is something called matter transmission, and that isn't even conceivable with current technology.

 

[SingABrightSong]

27 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

mmm, moving a "resource" as a lightspeed signal is so far out of the purview of this game it isn't funny.  While interstellar travel is still science fiction, it is at least conceivable with our current technology.  Moving a resource via a lightspeed signal is something called matter transmission, and that isn't even conceivable with current technology.

 

"Resource" was in scare quotes for a reason; the idea was that it would be information, not stuff. 

ETA: Okay I didn't actually put it in scare quotes to begin with whoops.

ETA2: To elaborate, here. The point was that, because you cannot transfer physical resources at a reasonable speed, that you instead transfer information, in this context "Money", but easily also something like "Science" or "Culture", which can be transferred as an optical signal at the speed of C. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by SingABrightSong

[Pthigrivi]

6 hours ago, SingABrightSong said:

That said, I do think that an "abstract" currency-like commodity is likely to be important to at least some game styles. KSP 2 will not have faster-than-light travel, so a resource that can be transferred as a lightspeed signal instead of an interstellar cargo ship could come in handy.

Oh Im sure it would be handy. I kinda think it would be too handy. Space travel is the heart of the game, and to me physically transporting resources using vessels would be the very challenge behind establishing trade. We're pretty sure science will be in the game as a currency, but again I kinda hope thats not transferrable between players because the process of teching up is like the core of the progression. 

[Ryaja]

Well, I guess if it isn't there I can always mod it in and see, but I would prefer it to be stock.

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Oh Im sure it would be handy. I kinda think it would be too handy. Space travel is the heart of the game, and to me physically transporting resources using vessels would be the very challenge behind establishing trade. We're pretty sure science will be in the game as a currency, but again I kinda hope thats not transferrable between players because the process of teching up is like the core of the progression. 

Tradeable science might actually be a good idea, it would work great as a currency actually because low level players could still trade for it or with it for higher level resources.

[ClashofCraft972]

On 1/4/2023 at 2:07 AM, Bej Kerman said:

What would being able to trade money do that trading raw resources couldn't do?

Technologies for examples, vehicles etc.
And I think we need money at the start of the adventure when we're only on Earth to buy ressources to ingame companies

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, ClashofCraft972 said:

Technologies for examples, vehicles etc.
And I think we need money at the start of the adventure when we're only on Earth to buy ressources to ingame companies

I can confidently say KSP 2 won't work like that.