Vl3d Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) Get rid of the distinction between direct and relay antennas. Have only 1 type of antenna and if you want to make a relay then you need to have at least 2 antennas (1 receiving and 1 sending). Also remove the possibility to combine antennas (add more antenna types or gain property / antenna power slider). Edited February 5, 2023 by Vl3d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazalassa Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 On 1/29/2023 at 4:00 PM, Vl3d said: if you want to make a relay then you need to have at least 2 antennas (1 receiving and 1 sending). Said antennas must be correctly pointed, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linuxgurugamer Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 On 1/29/2023 at 10:00 AM, Vl3d said: Get rid of the distinction between direct and relay antennas. Have only 1 type of antenna and if you want to make a relay then you need to have at least 2 antennas (1 receiving and 1 sending). Ummm, why? Different antennas have different abilities. Relay antennas can act as direct antennas, but due to the need for the relay equipment, is heavier. 14 minutes ago, Nazalassa said: Said antennas must be correctly pointed, too. Not possible in KSP, and I would assume the same for KSP2. It's just the way the game works, you can't assume an antenna is pointed properly due to things like timewarp, rails, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandaman Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 46 minutes ago, Nazalassa said: Said antennas must be correctly pointed, too. That would be too much micro management for me. Same as decaying orbits etc. I just 'assume' there is a team at HQ keeping an eye on all that stuff as IRL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) On 1/31/2023 at 6:58 PM, linuxgurugamer said: Relay antennas can act as direct antennas, but due to the need for the relay equipment, is heavier. Needing 2 antennas for a relay instead of just 1 means that the relay system is twice as heavy as direct comms. So the end result is the same. I also added the suggestion to remove the possibility to combine antennas. It just makes craft look ugly when they have 6..8..n antennas. Just add more antenna types or gain property / antenna power slider. By the way it does seem like this is the aesthetic they're going for.. with the two opposing antennas. Points for that! Edited February 5, 2023 by Vl3d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linuxgurugamer Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Vl3d said: Needing 2 antennas for a relay instead of just 1 means that the relay system is twice as heavy as direct comms. So the end result is the same. Ummmm, since when has a relay antenna not been able to function as a direct antenna? What I said was: On 1/31/2023 at 11:58 AM, linuxgurugamer said: Relay antennas can act as direct antennas, but due to the need for the relay equipment, is heavier. So, if you don't need a relay antenna, then you don't need to spend the mass for it. Useful for early flights, small relatively local probes, etc. When you need a relay antenna, you put one on. The reason you see KSP rockets with tons of antennas is to increase the range, not to provide additional capability. If you don't have the top antenna, but you need the range of it, then you can add multiple smaller antenna to get that range. Edited February 5, 2023 by linuxgurugamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 14 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said: Ummmm, since when has a relay antenna not been able to function as a direct antenna? What I said was: So, if you don't need a relay antenna, then you don't need to spend the mass for it. Useful for early flights, small relatively local probes, etc. When you need a relay antenna, you put one one. I understand. Allow me clarify. I am arguing against behind dedicated relay-only antennas. Having one antenna should only allow direct communication. Relaying capability should require 2 antennas. Having dedicated relay antennas is not necessary. We should be able to use 2 direct antennas to create a "relay system". 18 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said: The reason you see KSP rockets with tons of antennas is to increase the range, not to provide additional capability. IMO that's a bad gameplay mechanic and should be replaced with having more antenna models or extending the antenna feature set with an EC consumption / power slider. This second idea (of not combining antennas) is distinct from the "require 2 direct antennas to make a relay" idea. It's purpose is to streamline construction, reduce parts count and beautify craft designs. Having 2 antennas should allow for relaying, but it shouldn't improve antenna range. And gameplay should not require more than 2 antennas except for redundancy purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linuxgurugamer Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 37 minutes ago, Vl3d said: IMO that's a bad gameplay mechanic and should be replaced with having more antenna models or extending the antenna feature set with an EC consumption / power slider. Ummm, it's a GAME. People will always come up with ways to work around the rules, and while yes, it looks wierd, and I suspect it wasn't originally intended that way, it's the way the game works. While people do tend to abuse it, it's a real life fact that multiple antennas do indeed increase range. Of course in real life, they are carefully designed, crafted, placed, but after all this _is_ a game. 39 minutes ago, Vl3d said: Having 2 antennas should allow for relaying, but it shouldn't improve antenna range. Why are you arguing that? While it is a game, it is attempting to mimic to a certain extent real life physics. 39 minutes ago, Vl3d said: And gameplay should not require more than 2 antennas except for redundancy purposes Ummm, then don't accept contacts for things beyond the range of 2 antennas. It's game, and people will make of it what they will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said: Why are you arguing that? While it is a game, it is attempting to mimic to a certain extent real life physics. I might be wrong and someone knowledgeable should correct me, but I know that having multiple antennas only increases bandwidth significantly. If the signal is not perfectly synced across antennas (if the waveforms don't overlap), it can't increase range because power is not focused and does not increase signal amplitude. Also without extra technology like Beam Forming for antenna arrays, there is also no big benefits for increasing gain. A bigger dish and a single powerful receiver/transmitter is preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linuxgurugamer Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Vl3d said: I might be wrong and someone knowledgeable should correct me, but I know that having multiple antennas only increases bandwidth significantly. If the signal is not perfectly synced across antennas (if the waveforms don't overlap), it can't increase range because power is not focused and does not increase signal amplitude. Also without extra technology like Beam Forming for antenna arrays, there is also no big benefits for increasing gain. A bigger dish and a single powerful receiver/transmitter is preferable. It's a game. Certain thing are simplified for game purposes. For example, among them that if you put multiple antennas on a rocket, they will be put on correctly, synced, etc. If you want more complexity, then there are mods (for KSP 1) which give you some of what you are asking for. The Near Future series of mods, Remote Tech, etc. But the basic game needs to be playable and understandable by everybody who wants to play it. Edited February 5, 2023 by linuxgurugamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said: It's a game. Certain thing are simplified for game purposes. For example, among them that if you put multiple antennas on a rocket, they will be put on correctly, synced, etc. If you want more complexity, then there are mods (for KSP 1) which give you some of what you are asking for. The Near Future series of mods, Remote Tech, etc. But the basic game needs to be playable and understandable by everybody who wants to play it. I don't understand the realism in having an increased range because you put more antennas on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linuxgurugamer Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said: I don't understand the realism in having an increased range because you put more antennas on. Now you are getting into an area that I'm aware of, but don't fully understand When multiple antennas are used, separated by a certain (calculated) distance, the range of the combined antennas is much greater than a single antennal Exactly how it works I'm not fully conversant in. I did a bit of googling, and the following links look like they might have a good explanation https://www.rfwireless-world.com/calculators/Antenna-Range-Calculator.html https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/files/DSN_Radio_Astronomy_Users_Guide.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_diversity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberry Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Why can't relays just save the data and reorient themselves? This doesn't feel realistic this just feels tedious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 6 minutes ago, Strawberry said: Why can't relays just save the data and reorient themselves? Please give one real-life example of a relay that works like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberry Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Vl3d said: Please give one real-life example of a relay that works like that. There are/were relay satellites with only one transceiver for relay purposes (see Relay 1). Most deep space satellites tend to use two antennas because the rover uses a different frequency then the one that gets sent to earth, but I dont see any technical limitation to why you couldn't just use one if the thing you were relaying was in the same frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 37 minutes ago, Strawberry said: There are/were relay satellites with only one transceiver for relay purposes (see Relay 1). Most deep space satellites tend to use two antennas because the rover uses a different frequency then the one that gets sent to earth, but I dont see any technical limitation to why you couldn't just use one if the thing you were relaying was in the same frequency. You cannot receive and transmit at the same time using only 1 antenna. You would need a system to announce before-hand when you are sending a new packet. It's a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawberry Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Just now, Vl3d said: You cannot receive and transmit at the same time using only 1 antenna. You would need a system to announce before-hand when you are sending a new packet. It's a mess. You could just program it to say "hey point your antenna here during these time intervals" do the communication then, then have it point at another place. Definitely messy but very much possible. My point is that I dont think only having one antenna is super immersion breaking or anything, it can easily brushed off as the ksc's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 8 minutes ago, Strawberry said: You could just program it to say "hey point your antenna here during these time intervals" do the communication then, then have it point at another place. Definitely messy but very much possible. My point is that I dont think only having one antenna is super immersion breaking or anything, it can easily brushed off as the ksc's problem. You can find excuses for it, but it can be improved. I would prefer having antennas with direct comms capabilities which, when paired, can allow for relaying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kspnerd122 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Just feels like demanding extra part count and making it look bad in order to get a relay, what about small probes, I mean, the cassini spacecraft had 1 antenna and was able to relay data for huygens, just allow relays to be 1 part, just adds unneeded complexity without gameplay value, just assume that the kerbals have 1 standard frequency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 40 minutes ago, kspnerd122 said: just allow relays to be 1 part, just adds unneeded complexity without gameplay value On the contrary, the complexity and the number of antennas would go down because every direct antenna would have the potential to be half of a relay system. And there would be no more relay-only antennas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandaman Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 I really don't see the point, or logic, of this idea. If you want a relay just use the correct part. In fact I generally fit a relay antenna instead of a normal one anyway. Locically, how would adding two parts not capable of doing a certain job suddenly be able to do it if I fit two of them? Would fitting two non- gimbaled engines magically allow them to gimbal, just by virtue of having more than one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, pandaman said: Locically, how would adding two parts not capable of doing a certain job suddenly be able to do it if I fit two of them? Would fitting two non- gimbaled engines magically allow them to gimbal, just by virtue of having more than one? It's called emergence, one of the most fundamental properties of reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandaman Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, Vl3d said: It's called emergence, one of the most fundamental properties of reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence But, what you are saying is that... By simply fitting two non relay capable antennae instead of one (or non gimballing engines, if using my example) the requisite missing parts and mechanisms needed will just 'magically appear'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pandaman said: By simply fitting two non relay capable antennae instead of one (or non gimballing engines, if using my example) the requisite missing parts and mechanisms needed will just 'magically appear'. A relay is a system of 2 direct antennas - one receiving and one transmitting. "A communications satellite is an artificial satellite that relays and amplifies radio telecommunication signals via a transponder. A transponder is the series of interconnected units that form a communications channel between the receiving and the transmitting antennas." Edited February 5, 2023 by Vl3d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kspnerd122 Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Ok, explain cassini then, just get the signal and retransmit it, you dont need 2 antennas for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts