KSP2 gameplay experience as a whole - how do you play it?

[Siska]

I want to see how other players play the game, since it has some gamebreaking problems as it is now.

In KSP 1, you could make an entire infrastrucutre in space. Space stations, sattelites, interplanetary vehicles, stations on planets, fuel extraction plants, etc...

As i see now in KSP 2 all that is impossible. If you have a spaceship in orbit, every time you try to fly another ship camera goes weird.

Sometimes you cannot launch another vessel if you already have something in space, and bugs become really weird.

Without creating infrastructure in game, game it self becomes a bit boring. One time flights and back (if you make it, even after patch my ship started to fall apart every time i wanted to launch it).

Game itself is very limited in gameplay experience in it's current state. 

I want to see, how do you play KSP2? You are creating stations in space, doing all crazy things or you just do 1 time flights?

I also noteced that there is still a lot ov savegame bugs if you are having another vessel in space. What are your experiences?

Or am i missing something...

[LoSBoL]

I'm playing with the 'Don't trust the game' way of thinking. It's such an early release that you can't trust on save games or mechanics working properly.

With that in mind I'm running small endeavors in single missions instead of massive undertakings, which may or probably will get botched. I can have fun with not just me failing, but the game failing on top of that and trying to work my way around that. 

So no rage quitting from me, although off course I do hope we will get an stable platform as updates progress. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by LoSBoL

[pandaman]

I'm essentially just 'mucking about' for now.  Doing simple self contained 'non-infrastructure' type missions.

Partly to just learn and familiarise myself with it.  And also because I have to assume anything I do may have a limited lifespan due to bugs or changes in future patches and updates.

[Guest]

Occasional 1 mission, 1 flight saves, not much more, the game can't sustain any kind of infrastructure building right now.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Master39

[Siska]

Also, do you feel the orbital mechanics are just not as precise as before?

It is very hard to make efficient, well planned missions to other planets. In KSP1 i could plan maneuver that will get me directly from kerbin orbit to orbit of other celestial bodies. In KSP2 i just cannot get orbital trajectory in a way i could jump directly to other planets.

It always goes like this

kerbin orbit -> sun orbit -> target celestial body orbit.

This way it takes much more time and delta-v to get somewhere. As far as i see it, you just have to overkill delta-v for any case, and make unefficient rockets.

If this is the way it will go in KSP2, it will lose a lot of maneuvring space in planning missions.

How do you do interstellar travel?

 

[regex]

5 hours ago, Siska said:

It is very hard to make efficient, well planned missions to other planets. In KSP1 i could plan maneuver that will get me directly from kerbin orbit to orbit of other celestial bodies. In KSP2 i just cannot get orbital trajectory in a way i could jump directly to other planets.

Why can't you do that? I haven't tried this patch but in the previous one I could create a good direct Hohmann maneuver using the old transfer planner by Alex Moon.

[sumeee]

I haven't touched KSP1 in a long time, but does stock KSP1 have some tools for interplanetary travel?

[Fluke]

1 hour ago, regex said:

Why can't you do that? I haven't tried this patch but in the previous one I could create a good direct Hohmann maneuver using the old transfer planner by Alex Moon.

Using that tool works for me on the current patch. And what I would assume is a standard mid-course correction burn. 

[Lyneira]

15 hours ago, regex said:

Why can't you do that? I haven't tried this patch but in the previous one I could create a good direct Hohmann maneuver using the old transfer planner by Alex Moon.

It's definitely possible, but it's much harder to be precise with your maneuver executions. The maneuver indicator only indicates remaining delta-v in 1 m/s rather than 0.1 m/s, the graphical indicator for delta-v remaining is also much less precise. On top of that the maneuver target on the navball doesn't adjust its direction when your ship inevitably burns a little off center, leaving any accidental delta-v orthogonal to it unaccounted for.

Spoiler

They probably did this for usability reasons because in KSP1 with SAS set to target the maneuver node, the ship would start to try and flip wildly when getting close to the end of the maneuver. But especially when out of LKO, it did allow you to apply the planned delta-v with great precision if you made sure to reorient and apply the last few m/s with low thrust.

All of this added together can easily be the difference between getting an encounter with another planet or being way off. There are of course ways to deal with this, but in my experience with a few interplanetary burns (not made with transfer tool), it feels like you always needs a correction burn immediately after, then a mid-course correction correction burn and mid-course correction correction correction burn, etc... And watching your trajectory like a hawk at the end of the burn rather than being able to trust your maneuver's remaining delta-v.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lyneira

[RocketRockington]

28 minutes ago, Lyneira said:

The maneuver indicator only indicates remaining delta-v in 1 m/s rather than 0.1 m/s, the graphical indicator for delta-v remaining is also much less precise. On top of that the maneuver target on the navball doesn't adjust its direction when your ship inevitably burns a little off center, leaving any accidental delta-v orthogonal to it unaccounted for.

These are such weird things to not have paid attention to.  I'm guessing when the devs were having so much fun playing KSP2, very little of it was playing the space portion of the game.  Goofing around with a plane around KSC is what I see most people posting on reddit for instance, when it comes to KSP2.

[Lyneira]

29 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

These are such weird things to not have paid attention to.  I'm guessing when the devs were having so much fun playing KSP2, very little of it was playing the space portion of the game.  Goofing around with a plane around KSC is what I see most people posting on reddit for instance, when it comes to KSP2.

Perhaps it was easier while playtesting (or they expect most players) to brute-force encounters with overengineered craft and late burns that don't need nearly as much precision?

I suppose it's a holdover from my time playing career in KSP1, but for most missions I try to make very minimalistic craft, optimized for low cost in KSP1. In KSP2, that means engineering for low mass and generally sticking to low tech options if available. And then you really feel the lack of precision, because your delta-v margins are much smaller.

Even though nothing in KSP2 stops me from slapping a bunch of NERVs or a SWERV to any orbital craft and calling it a day.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Lyneira

[RocketRockington]

1 minute ago, Lyneira said:

Perhaps it was easier while playtesting (or they expect most players) to brute-force encounters with overengineered craft and late burns that don't need nearly as much precision?

I suppose it's a holdover from my time playing career in KSP1, but for most missions I try to make very minimalistic craft, optimized for low cost in KSP1. In KSP2, that means engineering for low mass and generally sticking to low tech options if available. And then you really feel the lack of precision, because your delta-v margins are much smaller.

Even though nothing in KSP2 stops me from slapping a bunch of NERVs or a SWERV to any orbital craft and calling it a day.

Yeah I'm an RP1 player, throwing stupid amounts of extra dV at a mission just isn't an option.   As much as it's a KSP meme, make boosters is a dumb solution to problems a lot of the time, and climbing the ladder to learning more elegant solutions is one thing that always appeals to me.  But I guess KSP2 is really meant more for the luls than the engineers, at this point in time.

[Snips]

1 hour ago, RocketRockington said:

These are such weird things to not have paid attention to.  I'm guessing when the devs were having so much fun playing KSP2, very little of it was playing the space portion of the game.  Goofing around with a plane around KSC is what I see most people posting on reddit for instance, when it comes to KSP2.

And that's why I personally have a bad feeling about KSP2: the priorities. It is actually more a plane simulator, but the game is called Kerbal Space Program. How can you discuss about boat stuff (ballasts and fluid pumps, as mentioned in the AMA)  and on the other hand delay things like robotic parts to after 1.0? I don't want to rain on the plane- and boat-guys parade, but after all it's a space simulator, not a plane-, boat- or painting-programm.

[Fullmetal Analyst]

3 hours ago, Lyneira said:

All of this added together can easily be the difference between getting an encounter with another planet or being way off. There are of course ways to deal with this, but in my experience with a few interplanetary burns (not made with transfer tool), it feels like you always needs a correction burn immediately after, then a mid-course correction correction burn and mid-course correction correction correction burn, etc... And watching your trajectory like a hawk at the end of the burn rather than being able to trust your maneuver's remaining delta-v.

honestly it sounds like you dont know how to do a proper transfer by adjusting the node, after patch 1 i never had a problem finetuning my closes approach on the first burn
could it be that you have been using mechjeb a lot in ksp1?

[Lyneira]

5 minutes ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

honestly it sounds like you dont know how to do a proper transfer by adjusting the node, after patch 1 i never had a problem finetuning my closes approach on the first burn
could it be that you have been using mechjeb a lot in ksp1?

I have no problems since Patch 1 with creating a maneuver plan that intercepts mun/minmus or another planet, inclination and AN/DN permitting (if not, a mid course correction burn is needed). What I'm referring to is that when executing that plan, the tools don't give you the precision you need to make that plan a reality. If you only go by the maneuver node window, the final trajectory does not line up enough with what you had planned despite executing it as precisely as possible. I was able to execute maneuvers far more precisely in KSP1 with just SAS, burning at low thrust (and if necessary reorient, repeat) until I got the maneuver delta-v down to within 0.1 m/s.

[Fullmetal Analyst]

Just now, Lyneira said:

the tools don't give you the precision you need to make that plan a reality.

it just takes a bit of practice, and you dont have to be on point with your burn, you can just slow down your burn at the end and slowly bring it all the way down

i agree though, its not a really good system, i would prefer a readout for dV required to finish the burn instead of that inaccurate bar

[Siska]

4 hours ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

honestly it sounds like you dont know how to do a proper transfer by adjusting the node, after patch 1 i never had a problem finetuning my closes approach on the first burn
could it be that you have been using mechjeb a lot in ksp1?

But you should be able to do that without mods? I am talking plain game. Adjusting maneuvering modes is just too much unprecise to be able to do direct jump. Or am i missing something? I don' see the point having to use mods to make game playable. Do you have some advice how to finetune maneuvering modes without mods like mechjeb?

[regex]

12 hours ago, Siska said:

But you should be able to do that without mods? I am talking plain game. Adjusting maneuvering modes is just too much unprecise to be able to do direct jump. Or am i missing something? I don' see the point having to use mods to make game playable. Do you have some advice how to finetune maneuvering modes without mods like mechjeb?

I think about it this way: It's sort of a stand-in for an accurate multi-body simulation, which will always (unless you're extremely lucky) require correction burns. Set your initial maneuver, perform it as best you can, correct, then correct again if necessary.

E: And for any future replyers, this is the exact same thing I have to do in KSP1. I even wrote a mod to handle precision maneuvers waaaaaaaay before Squad put that in, and at the end of the day I still only have human reflexes, I can't execute a burn with that sort of precision; I have almost always had to make correction burns.

Edited March 29, 2023 by regex

[Cpt Kerbalkrunch]

@Siska @Lyneira

I don't think you're missing anything. A lot of things feel off. I needed a correction burn on the way to Minmus. And I don't mean to flatten out my orbit for a better approach, I mean when I came out of warp half way there I no longer had an Intercept. That obviously shouldn't be.

And not being able to use the mouse wheel to fine tune adjustment, or see in tenths of Delta V is a serious oversight. I suspect they know all this, and it'll be corrected at some point. When a game hinges on picking out a dot in the sky and figuring out how to meet up with it in 3 years, precision is pretty important. It's just a question of when they get to these issues. I suspect they have a lot on their plate right now.

[Siska]

9 hours ago, regex said:

I think about it this way: It's sort of a stand-in for an accurate multi-body simulation, which will always (unless you're extremely lucky) require correction burns. Set your initial maneuver, perform it as best you can, correct, then correct again if necessary.

In KSP 1, i could do 1 burn to get into influence of Laythe. Without corretion burns and mods. Sometimes you needed to do correction burn, but only sometimes. This is just impossible here.

Also, i tried alexmoon's opening windows calculator and i could not get to Dres in one burn. I went to Sol orbit and then just trying maneuvers to get to dres.

I don't know, i hope that this is also something they will be working on, But for now it is not KSP2 but rather KSP 0.3.

I simply cannot understand how they were not able to put some manuevering node tools like in KSP1 inside (even before ksp1 had it, it was much much easyer to travel).

How were they testing the game? Did the programmer or the tester spent like a day on adjusting maneuvering modes trying to get to another planet and said "I don't see a problem here,  it works great!"

 

[regex]

32 minutes ago, Siska said:

In KSP 1, i could do 1 burn to get into influence of Laythe. Without corretion burns and mods. Sometimes you needed to do correction burn, but only sometimes. This is just impossible here.

Sometimes I can too. I still need to make a correction burn to come in at a good altitude and maybe adjust the inclination of the resulting orbit.

32 minutes ago, Siska said:

Also, i tried alexmoon's opening windows calculator and i could not get to Dres in one burn. I went to Sol orbit and then just trying maneuvers to get to dres.

I was able to set up a maneuver to get to Dres using the information from that tool in KSP2. The burn didn't work as expected because this was the initial release, but the maneuver setup worked.

32 minutes ago, Siska said:

I simply cannot understand how they were not able to put some manuevering node tools like in KSP1 inside (even before ksp1 had it, it was much much easyer to travel).

I mean, that's how we played KSP1 for many years. Maybe they're taking the same attitude that Squad did for the longest time, that it was good enough for Kerbol. We'll probably see better tools once we get another star system.

[Lyneira]

I've no problems with correction burns for being off a little, but I do expect the game to do better in the future with the ability to execute and show precision burns to within 0.1 m/s. That is what I'd consider necessity when doing fine orbit tuning.

I can live with the maneuver not taking orthogonal delta-v into account (to prevent jittering of the maneuver target close to  burn completion), but I would like to see an improvement to maneuver plans that can assist in immediately correcting for it after finishing the basic burn.

[Siska]

Yes, but i think we all agree that KSP1 had this solved better than KSP2 even before maneovering tool. 

KSP1 is a challenge of engineering nad precision

KSP2 is a challenge of overcoming the game itself

 

[Lyneira]

Or preferably, this:

 

[Siska]

18 hours ago, Lyneira said:

Or preferably, this:

He said pretty much all about it. And is true. KSP2 forces you to do unefficient travel and i am also in doubts, that base coding is architecturaly well done. I also think that team will lack money to do further development, They are talking about colonies, space travel multiplayer, but they don't talk much about current state of the game. I'm on KSP1 from now on, until they get it right. If they will of course.