Developer Insights #19 - Try, Fail, Try Again...and Again

[The Aziz]

3 hours ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

This post's on seven likes.

This is on eighteen. 

The sprawling negativity on the forums sometimes disheartens me. 

Notice how that 18 was mostly from the usual complainers. And none of them liked the main post. Or the last Nate's post describing what's going on.

They're all here just to complain, it's better to ignore it. The forums then start to be a much more pleasant space to be in.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

Just now, The Aziz said:

They're all here just to complain, it's better to ignore it. The forums then start to be a much more pleasant space to be in.

I try, but still see myself quoting them in posts from time to time. 

I read that people found the forums more enjoyable before, and it disheartened me a bit as I just came to these forums after starting KSP2.

But I'll try my best to follow on your advice. Thank you.

[Scarecrow71]

59 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

They're all here just to complain, it's better to ignore it. The forums then start to be a much more pleasant space to be in.

No, we aren't.  Do we complain?  Yes, we most certainly do.  I won't argue that point.  But that's not all we do.  We happen to call out things that don't sound right, or don't seem to tell the whole truth.  And simply put, we are being honest about how we feel about the game and the perceived lack of communication.  Heck, you've got a guy on the boards who has run a YT channel mostly dedicates to KSP saying a lot of the same things us regular "complainers" are saying.

If you like the game, wonderful.  Play it.  Enjoy it.  You do you.  But understand that some of us are disappointed in what is happening, and we are anxious and tired of waiting and getting PR speak.  And, in case it wasn't clear, I actually thanked Nate and Darrin for their recent clarification posts.  But I guess that doesn't matter because then you can't complain about my complaining, right?

[The Aziz]

9 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

We happen to call out things that don't sound right, or don't seem to tell the whole truth. 

It ain't a confession in front of a priest, nor it is a court where you're legally obligated to tell the truth, whole truth and only truth. Of course you can always start a case if you feel like you're being lied to.

9 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

If you like the game, wonderful.  Play it.  Enjoy it. 

I don't play actually. Haven't in 3 weeks. Not because of the bugs (I can deal with those) or the performance (it's not that terrible on my rig) but because I don't enjoy doing things blindly. I have other games that do a better job at explaining next steps.

I realize things aren't perfect, be it in the game or in the communication area, but nothing is perfect, and improvements don't come with a snap of fingers. 

And, compared to my activity before, it may seem like I barely visit this forum, and that's right - because I'm really tired of watching the same dead horse being still beaten for 3 months.

So yeah I've decided to ignore it. Can't force your orders when I'm orbiting 150km above Earth. Yes I've been bingewatching For All Mankind, recommended for anyone who haven't seen it

Edited May 8, 2023 by The Aziz

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

So yeah I've decided to ignore it

If you were ignoring it, you wouldn't be out here with your own negative comments.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[linuxgurugamer]

On 5/7/2023 at 5:17 PM, Socraticat said:

This is a bit different than what I usually do. Since we got a nice "In-Depth" Development Post, I figured the least I could do was provide an "In-Depth Bug Report", Complete with video and references to build materials, specs, and build process.

It seems totally overdone, maybe a bit inefficient, but that's what makes it totally kerbal.

 

Who's got a request for Report #2?

 

0.02c

  Reveal hidden contents

It is absolutely a choice to complain without contributing. If you want it done faster, do something constructive, and start with the developer's request- They know exactly what they are asking for- No, they don't think it's easy- Yes, they do hope and maybe expect the community to do it because they love the game...

I'm fine with that. I do love the game. I really enjoy being on the Hype train, but I do think I'll spend more time in Bug Reporting. It's not that difficult to copy and paste some stats, then write some descriptive words down. Having said that... Devs...

Just as there are impossible numbers of permutations to go through, there are impossible numbers of bugs in any given playthrough lately for any player to feel as if they are making an impact with bug reports. I concur with others that it would be helpful to have a database of bugs to avoid overreporting an issue. I also understand wanting to have the volume of unique users having the same issue, but that's getting a little beside the point.

The video I've posted highlights most of the requests for Bug Reports, yeah? There's no way you can convince me to write that all out in prose. And I'm verbose. That's work. Those members that do that deserve T-Shirts and comfy sweaters for winter. I offer the compromise of the Video Report: Unfortunately you don't get to look at my text at a glance this way, but you can take a pause at my spec frames if your game is strong.

SPEAKING OF MINIGAMES: I would love communication on whether or not keyboard entry in the VAB is a priority.

That grinds my gears.

 

Improve this by running the KSP2 Bug Packager and linking the zip

[Socraticat]

3 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Improve this by running the KSP2 Bug Packager and linking the zip

If you give me a bug to feature I will absolutely make a video covering it's use- and the bug. I just finished a gameplay/soundtrack video for fun, so now I'm ready for more... "work"?

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 5/4/2023 at 6:39 PM, Alexoff said:

Hi guys! We are also a kind of QA team here, though we are not paid, rather the opposite...

In this case, these three hundred players can feel very important and special people!

Hours spent contributing to the development of the game are better spent than hours spent whining and complaining and conspiracy theorizing on the forums.  Care about the game?  Want to see it succeed?  File a bug report today.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Hours spent contributing to the development of the game are better spent than hours spent whining and complaining and conspiracy theorizing on the forums.  Care about the game?  Want to see it succeed?  File a bug report today.

The most egregious bugs have long been known, should be even before the release of early access. I would not want to worry about the game more than those who are paid for it

[asmi]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:34 PM, Stephensan said:

how about having built IN the game... it gathers all your data (it has to be approved by the player), and you can report it in the game...

 

it would gather everything, including the save (if need be), system information, etc..

 

Why do we have to jump through hoops to report bugs more, still, continues? most every other game that is in a technical beta has a report a bug plastered EVERYWHERE, but here we still, 2~ months in have to jump through hoops to help? is it hard to link a forum profile, and ask for consent to collect information about your PC, ask what the problem is, what is expected, what things you would like to add like photos or the save file itself, and anything else they would like to add, to then be able to do the same thing we do on the forums or discord...

The game might be unstable at that point and will collect totally bogus data. Or the code that does the collection might itself cause problems and/or has bugs. It's a classic problem in development - you introduce code which intends to watch out for problems with your "normal" application code, but when a problem occurs, you can no longer be absolutely sure if it was caused by your application code, or by the code which looks after it, or by some sort of interaction between both. The only code which is guaranteed to never cause any problem is the one which doesn't exist.

[asmi]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:38 PM, caipi said:

Why should we now invest time and effort -especially if you already asked us to pay for it and after you told us it doesn't help you most of the time- for something that might not help you at all because you are already aware of it? Don't you think that this is either wasting users time and energy, or off-putting for others to even begin searching for a needle in a haystack that we don't even know about? If it were me, I wouldn't deliberately ask my customers to investigate everything and have them file a detailed report just to tell me mostly things I already know. I would even feel guilty if I didn't support them in anyway, e.g. by sharing what I already know what I don't need. And telling them, "well, honestly, you're work you've been doing for us is rather pointless. we already knew most of it."

You don't HAVE TO, but if you want to help them track down the issue, you can. There is no way to know if the bug is already known or not unless some investigation is performed (results of totally unrelated bugs can appear the same to a user - for example all crashes to desktop look the same despite a myriad of reasons which could've caused it.  Also, sometimes the single root cause can manifests itself in different ways, and one of those ways might be easier/more convenient for developer to investigate than originally reported repro (it's not a secret that QA engineers tend to overthink use cases while having a blind spot for obvious cases). Finally, even if the bug you've submitted is confirmed to be known issue, the fact that you reported it might change their calculus regarding priority of a fix - it's one thing if a bug appears to be one-off and was never seen again by QA team once logged initially, and quite another if multiple users report it as well.

[asmi]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:00 PM, ShadowZone said:

You will not be able to repeat this success if you try to constrain development with old school corporate thinking. Innovation and creativity need room to breathe. Corporate guidelines tend to suffocate them instead, because it can only work according to a strict pattern.

I fully agree with you, but my big corporate experience also reminds me that liquiding against the wind and biting the hand that feeds you tend to not end well for people doing it if you know what I mean.

On 5/6/2023 at 12:46 PM, Bej Kerman said:

4) People are inevitably going to spam it with the "My game is broken!!" variety and duplicates without checking things themselves.

That would be the reason #0 in my experience. Or, even worse, spam nonsense/intentional falsehood in all fields. Every public project I ever worked on had some of those, there aren't that many of them, but even a single one can do some serious damage.

[Sade]

oxymoron: "I fully agree with you, but..."

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:27 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

And now I'm done with this conversation.  And this topic.  And just about these forums.  I'm done having to defend myself over and over again simply because I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk and needs serious work.  Buh-bye. 

I think that the sides of the fence aren’t defined by belief that KSP2 EA is junk or not.  I think that everybody agrees that KSP2 EA needs work and is not a finished product.  I think the differences are mostly in terms of attitude in the face of disappointment, tone, and… I’m struggling to articulate this a little, but in treatment of the waiters (and by extension, your fellow diners).  And, to continue the analogy, trust that the restaurant will have redeemed itself by the main course, if not earlier, and in the meantime, wanting to have a good conversation between courses that isn’t focused on how awful the breadsticks are and which bit of cutlery to throw at the waiter next.

Anyhow, hope to see you back at some point if you do decide to walk out.