KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[RocketRockington]

38 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Thats what Im saying though, if you have limited storage it doesn't matter if you can warp 10,000,000x. Your tanks max out and you either need to use it or build more storage

Warp.  Build more storage.  Warp.  Build.more storage.  Warp...etc.  that's your brilliant design?  Vs doing contracts to gain money.  Not saying KSP1 was great, but the thing you describe is terrible.

39 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Thus far the actual design decisions have been pretty smart, it's just that the execution is buggy as all get out atm

What design decisions are in KSP2 that are great?  Sound design, yes.  Maybe Howard should design the whole game.  But that's not really design work.

UI design is awful.  Gameplay design is barely exists, though the wobble rockets decision is hilariously bad.  Only thing I could point to as a questionable improvement is the maneuver nodes, now that they mostly work. 

[Pthigrivi]

25 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Warp.  Build more storage.  Warp.  Build.more storage.  Warp...etc.  that's your brilliant design?  Vs doing contracts to gain money.  Not saying KSP1 was great, but the thing you describe is terrible.

We should probably talk about colonies and career mode somewhere else since this is about heat. But no you aren’t understanding the way that plays out.
 

There have been a huge host of improvements big and small, but like I said they’re just buried in bugs and rushed execution. Again if you want to talk about that we should do so elsewhere and not clog up the thread. 

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

In a neighboring topic, such a question caused a scandal. No one knows, maybe not even the developers, but most likely science will come out before the spring of 2024. If this does not happen, nothing will save the game.

I am on record as saying Science won't be out before the 1 year anniversary of EA release.  To prove that prediction wrong they still have 7 months to release it...and in @Nertea's dev blog he admits they are still conceptualizing heat and reentry.  Not looking good for Science right now.

At this point I'm ready to learn C coding.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[RocketRockington]

Just now, Pthigrivi said:

There have been a huge host of improvements big and small, but like I said they’re just buried in bugs and rushed execution. Again if you want to talk about that we should do so elsewhere and not clog up the thread.

If you genuinely wanted to move elsewhere, you'd stop making statements like 'Im right' right before saying 'let's stop talking about it here'.  Transparent attempts to get.in the last word right before shutting down discussion, very disingenuous.  Feel free to post a thread if you actually mean it.

[RocketRockington]

36 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am on record as saying Science won't be out before the 1 year anniversary of EA release.  To prove that prediction wrong they still have 7 months to release it...and in @Nertea's dev blog he admits they are still conceptualizing heat and reentry.  Not looking good for Science right now.

At this point I'm ready to learn C coding.

I remember when the optimists were predicting that the whole roadmap would be done within 6 months of release.  Now even non-roadmap stuff that was claimed to be almost done, just a matter of weeks (reentry heating) may not be done in 2023.  

Edited July 22, 2023 by RocketRockington

[moeggz]

36 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

I remember when the optimists were predicting that the whole roadmap would be done within 6 months of release.  Now even non-roadma stuff that was claimed to be almost done, just a matter of weeks (reentry heating) may not be done in 2023.  

The moving goal posts on expectations and subsequent gaslighting has been entertaining at least.

really wish I didn’t accidentally leave ksp2 running on the background over a weekend by accident. If I hadn’t and my play time was accurate at about 3 hours and not the 50~ish hours my steam account claims maybe I could’ve gotten that refund.

[PicoSpace]

11 minutes ago, AngryBaer said:

This is a good point though. For anyone who wants a more complex heating sim or more of a challenge in that regard, there will always be mods. It's much better to start with a simplified base you can build on than trying to fit it into an already complex system.

The vanilla KSP2 heating may or may not satisfy everyone but it's likely much easier to modify.

Agreed, set-up the bones and the system so mods can support/tweak to a player’s desire. Although I’m curious how mods and multiplayer are going to work. I do hope they have a framework in place to avoid “interesting” things from happening.

[Periple]

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

We should probably talk about colonies and career mode somewhere else since this is about heat.

I’ve been wondering about colonies actually. They’ve been saying that they want them to pose their own unique engineering challenges without saying much about what those challenges are. This was the first I’ve heard of such a colony-specific challenge — dealing with ambient and endogenous heat by using environmental features as heat sinks. I thought that was really interesting.

I have a hard time imagining interesting structural engineering challenges for colonies if they’re built with the same Lego paradigm as the rockets since the only force they’ll presumably need to deal with is gravity and there are no systems in place simulating wear and degradation. So this one is interesting and I hope there will be more!

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

2 hours ago, moeggz said:

The moving goal posts on expectations and subsequent gaslighting has been entertaining at least.

really wish I didn’t accidentally leave ksp2 running on the background over a weekend by accident. If I hadn’t and my play time was accurate at about 3 hours and not the 50~ish hours my steam account claims maybe I could’ve gotten that refund.

Think of it as an investment. A risky and very slow one.

[Alexoff]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am on record as saying Science won't be out before the 1 year anniversary of EA release.  To prove that prediction wrong they still have 7 months to release it...and in @Nertea's dev blog he admits they are still conceptualizing heat and reentry.  Not looking good for Science right now.

If only now the developers are concerned about heating, then even a complete restart of the game in 2020 cannot be an excuse. What about the rest of the game that we haven't seen? And what have dozens of developers been doing all this time? Did they draw the textures of the planets pixel by pixel? I can hardly imagine what the management of PD and T2 was doing, they paid people salaries for years, and they seemed to procrastinate.

[RocketRockington]

1 minute ago, Alexoff said:

If only now the developers are concerned about heating, then even a complete restart of the game in 2020 cannot be an excuse. What about the rest of the game that we haven't seen? And what have dozens of developers been doing all this time? Did they draw the textures of the planets pixel by pixel? I can hardly imagine what the management of PD and T2 was doing, they paid people salaries for years, and they seemed to procrastinate.

I'm sure SOME of the devs have been working hard.  But yeah - the fact that they waited for a modder to show up and design one of their core systems in the last year - with all the other work he's clearly responsible for.  I do wonder what the rest of their design team was doing for the last 5-6 years.    I never see Tom or Shana actually mentioned associated with any features at all, whereas Chris has been creditted with all kinds of work.    Shocking that KSP1 managed to implement so many systems with a developer acting as designer for a lot of its history - even at the end it was just 1 or 2 designers on the team max.

[The Aziz]

5 minutes ago, Periple said:

have a hard time imagining interesting structural engineering challenges for colonies if they’re built with the same Lego paradigm as the rockets since the only force they’ll presumably need to deal with is gravity

An example was put there. A colony in a shade of a mountain protecting from the solar heat. But the slope is quite steep and you don't have much room for comfort because the shadow isn't that big in the first place, so you have fo figure out your way around the environment challenges. Can't build sideways too much cuz you'll open parts of the colony to the blaze of a star. Minor issue if the parts left out in there are heat resistant, but I wouldn't put any habitats or cryogenic fuel tanks in there. Or a nuclear reactor for that matter. But then these are quite large and there isn't too much of a flat land to place it on so you have to build sort of upwards, but not too much to not leave the shadow from that way. There could be tons of examples.

[Periple]

28 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

An example was put there. A colony in a shade of a mountain protecting from the solar heat. But the slope is quite steep and you don't have much room for comfort because the shadow isn't that big in the first place, so you have fo figure out your way around the environment challenges. Can't build sideways too much cuz you'll open parts of the colony to the blaze of a star. Minor issue if the parts left out in there are heat resistant, but I wouldn't put any habitats or cryogenic fuel tanks in there. Or a nuclear reactor for that matter. But then these are quite large and there isn't too much of a flat land to place it on so you have to build sort of upwards, but not too much to not leave the shadow from that way. There could be tons of examples.

I have to clarify, by "structural" I meant the kind of challenges air- and spacecraft pose to keep them from falling apart under stress (and stable in flight). I don't think these are going to be a concern with colonies as you can presumably just click them together, you don't need to worry about aerodynamics or, presumably, static stresses unless they get completely ridiculous. 

I had been wondering what the colony-related challenges are apart from balancing resource production and consumption (just like you need to do with air/spacecraft). I very much liked the way the heating system gives this a new twist, so that you have to consider heat management for site selection especially on hot planets. I wonder what other systems they're thinking of to give colonies some unique gameplay?

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

An example was put there. A colony in a shade of a mountain protecting from the solar heat. But the slope is quite steep and you don't have much room for comfort because the shadow isn't that big in the first place, so you have fo figure out your way around the environment challenges. Can't build sideways too much cuz you'll open parts of the colony to the blaze of a star. Minor issue if the parts left out in there are heat resistant, but I wouldn't put any habitats or cryogenic fuel tanks in there. Or a nuclear reactor for that matter. But then these are quite large and there isn't too much of a flat land to place it on so you have to build sort of upwards, but not too much to not leave the shadow from that way. There could be tons of examples.

The chance that they're going to calculate per-part or even per-craft shadowing from real surface geometry for all craft, focused or non-focused , even at 1x time warp, much less high-x timewarp, is so nonexistent that I fully believe @Nertea must have meant something else in that devblog.  Care to explain before the community goes off the deep end speculating?

Edited July 22, 2023 by RocketRockington

[The Aziz]

It's already there for solar panels lol. At least in KSP1 because I didn't have the opportunity to check it in KSP2. "Sun blocked by <part x>" and "Sun blocked by <planet>". As for whether it's focused or unfocused, it doesn't matter because the heat would probably damage/destroy the vulnerable parts while you're still there. 

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

5 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

I'm sure SOME of the devs have been working hard.  But yeah - the fact that they waited for a modder to show up and design one of their core systems in the last year - with all the other work he's clearly responsible for.  I do wonder what the rest of their design team was doing for the last 5-6 years.   [...]

Well you gotta have weekly challenges and schedule AMAs, right? Also one doesn't simply start selling the skin off of the living bear in the woods, you gotta plan it in advance...

 

This is all I'll say

Edited July 22, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[The Aziz]

"I ate the whole breakfast but I didn't like it and I don't want the dinner that is coming in few hours, gimme my money back"

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

"I ate the whole breakfast but I didn't like it and I don't want the dinner that is coming in few hours, gimme my money back"

Fun analogy, except that they didn't yet give me the breakfast yet (Science Update, because what we have now is more like just bread and butter) and I had to pay the entire check in advance (including dinner and desert) and before I was sat at the table I've been told all I ordered will follow shortly, however, after a closer look, I can clearly see no one is in the kitchen.

[PicoSpace]

12 hours ago, Cytauri said:

@NerteaWhen will Vapor Cones and aero effects besides re-entry effects release and will there be re-entry burn marks on the ship that is affected? That is all I care about and is why I bought the game. Thank you.

Mmmmm... re-entry brun marks, yummy!

Edited July 22, 2023 by PicoSpace

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Well you gotta have weekly challenges and schedule AMAs, right? Also one doesn't simply start selling the skin off of the living bear in the woods, you gotta plan it in advance...

 

This is all I'll say

That's...kind of unfair, don't you think?  He wasn't saying he wanted a refund, but was rather commenting that we haven't seen much appreciable advancement in the game towards roadmap features to this point.  And that the core systems that we were told years ago were ready are, in fact, not.

[moeggz]

20 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Fun analogy, except that they didn't yet give me the breakfast yet (Science Update, because what we have now is more like just bread and butter) and I had to pay the entire check in advance (including dinner and desert) and before I was sat at the table I've been told all I ordered will follow shortly, however, after a closer look, I can clearly see no one is in the kitchen.

And as you are there still waiting for breakfast another diner comes in. Gets upset and asks for their money back quickly. Gets their money back but management comes over and says, “no come back it’s now happy hour 20% off”

As you don’t consider the standard bread and butter on the table to count as the meal you have ordered and waited hours for you ask your waiter if, since you have waited patiently and politely and have yet to get anything you ordered, if you can get the happy hour discount.

The waiter, management, and even grumpy customer all laugh at you.

Another hour passes and you all still only have bread and butter but the waiter has come back out and described with illustrations (not actual pictures) how delicious your pancakes will be.

[Stephensan]

34 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Fun analogy, except that they didn't yet give me the breakfast yet (Science Update, because what we have now is more like just bread and butter) and I had to pay the entire check in advance (including dinner and desert) and before I was sat at the table I've been told all I ordered will follow shortly, however, after a closer look, I can clearly see no one is in the kitchen.

you ain't even sat down you are on one of those hocky pucks that have a Bluetooth timer/alarm thing.

(the place is empty)

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Fun analogy, except that they didn't yet give me the breakfast yet (Science Update, because what we have now is more like just bread and butter) and I had to pay the entire check in advance (including dinner and desert) and before I was sat at the table I've been told all I ordered will follow shortly, however, after a closer look, I can clearly see no one is in the kitchen.

Bread and butter, fair enough, just to give you some appetite. But you had a choice of paying for everything now, or paying just slightly more after everything including second breakfast, lunch, elevensies, dinner, afternoon tea and supper is served. What you haven't been told is the timeline. As for nobody in the kitchen, you've smelled something cooking here and there.

[VlonaldKerman]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

's already there for solar panels lol. At least in KSP1 because I didn't have the opportunity to check it in KSP2. "Sun blocked by <part x>" and "Sun blocked by <planet>".

Is this actually true? I think that it’s only true when you are within physics range of the craft, not in the background, or, for instance, in the tracking station. I’m not near my pc right now so I can’t really check, but I remember noticing this when using Bon Voyage rover mod.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Bread and butter, fair enough, just to give you some appetite. But you had a choice of paying for everything now, or paying just slightly more after everything including second breakfast, lunch, elevensies, dinner, afternoon tea and supper is served. What you haven't been told is the timeline. As for nobody in the kitchen, you've smelled something cooking here and there.

Something else I smell. And it ain’t pretty.