Science and Tech Tree with Tom 'FRIIIDAAAAAAAAY' Vinita - KSP 2 Dev Chats

[regex]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

You are making the assumption that either I or the devs stated that going to Eve would be gated behind a specific tier.

I am not, in any way, suggesting that the devs are going to gatekeep my delta-V expenditures. What I am saying is that I seriously hope we're not going to have certain science instruments locked in certain tech tiers because that limits the things I can do to gather good science. Reference my earlier post, which you quoted from but apparently didn't read:

2 hours ago, regex said:

I'm concerned about gating science experiments. I think that was a poor decision in KSP1, it meant that nodes in the tech tree with experiments were much higher value than others. I usually bee-lined those once I'd gotten sufficient parts to build the way I wanted.

This goes directly against the stated desire for players to go through the tech tree in a manner that fits their playstyle, there will be optimal nodes.

Edited December 1, 2023 by regex

[KerbalabreK]

Any transcript available?

[Wheehaw Kerman]

16 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Wait... there's a vall lake now?

Yup!  Inspired by cracks in certain icy Jovian moons that you may have heard of, I expect…

[Scarecrow71]

8 hours ago, regex said:

I am not, in any way, suggesting that the devs are going to gatekeep my delta-V expenditures. What I am saying is that I seriously hope we're not going to have certain science instruments locked in certain tech tiers because that limits the things I can do to gather good science. Reference my earlier post, which you quoted from but apparently didn't read:

This goes directly against the stated desire for players to go through the tech tree in a manner that fits their playstyle, there will be optimal nodes.

Ah, I misread what you originally typed.  That is my bad.  And I agree with you that science experiments shouldn't be gated behind specific tiers...although they may be.  The one example I have is Aquatic Sciences in Tier IV.  Without knowing what parts might be available until we get the game, I am making an assumption that there might be science parts/experiments unlocked at that point that deal with different liquid bodies (Eve's methane oceans, Kerbin's water, etc.).  Which, technically, isn't any different than needing to purchase a given node to get access to that tech, really.

[mattihase]

I will second the idea that it's a little bit ridiculous that it looks like we need to unlock as-yet-undeveloped-by-humanity nuclear propulsion tech before we can figure out how to make we-definitely-already-have Mk3 cargo planes with ramps, planes and spaceplanes are something I absolutely love playing around with on kerbin and later laythe. Especially with all the things you can do with procedural wings. However perhaps I'm assuming too much and the later spaceplane nodes are more about engine unlocks than part sizes.
 

I suppose there's a degree to which early game aerospace can be added to or changed with mods but it'd be nice to have more opportunities there on a level playing field with everyone else.

 

EDIT: NVM I see jumbo jets/airliners under tier 3 tech. Still pretty silly you need to get your a** to mars duna if you want to be able to take a rover to the north pole without going full KPE.

EDIT EDIT: wait, no, the ramp/cargo bays are under tier 4. GAAAAAAH!

Edited December 1, 2023 by mattihase
am dumb

[Scarecrow71]

37 minutes ago, mattihase said:

I will second the idea that it's a little bit ridiculous that it looks like we need to unlock as-yet-undeveloped-by-humanity nuclear propulsion tech before we can figure out how to make we-definitely-already-have Mk3 cargo planes with ramps, planes and spaceplanes are something I absolutely love playing around with on kerbin and later laythe. Especially with all the things you can do with procedural wings. However perhaps I'm assuming too much and the later spaceplane nodes are more about engine unlocks than part sizes.
 

I suppose there's a degree to which early game aerospace can be added to or changed with mods but it'd be nice to have more opportunities there on a level playing field with everyone else.

 

EDIT: NVM I see jumbo jets/airliners under tier 3 tech. Still pretty silly you need to get your a** to mars duna if you want to be able to take a rover to the north pole without going full KPE.

EDIT EDIT: wait, no, the ramp/cargo bays are under tier 4. GAAAAAAH!

I'm not too worried (yet) about where things are in the tech tree, primarily because I'm sure a mod will come along that changes it all up anyhow.  And I'm more concerned right now about playability with Science mode, especially as it relates to the bugs that still exist that might make things a bit more difficult than they should be (such as wobbliness, which is supposed to have a fix in 0.2 but hasn't been mentioned in weeks in anything they've dropped).

[Strawberry]

We dont know much definitively about ksp2 science parts yet, but it does sound like some science parts will have more strict criteria for using them (ie aquatic sciences will likely need water), so it makes sense for them to introduce the more parts gradually, and i think a fine way of doing that is them being in the tech tree. I think having every science part at once at the begining of the game would just be overwhelming.

[NexusHelium]

21 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Wait... there's a vall lake now?

Sure is

Spoiler

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by NexusHelium

[Ultimate Steve]

4 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

Sure is

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Thank you for the confirmation, and double thank you for spoilering the image, I have not opened it and I plan on finding it myself soon.

[NexusHelium]

58 minutes ago, Ultimate Steve said:

I plan on finding it myself soon.

Good luck to you! It's not really super hard to find but still a challenge from time to time.

[dansiegel30]

22 hours ago, ttikkoo said:

I think the Kerbals themselves are a big draw to new players. If we begin with probes rather than Kerbal capsules*, the Kerbals themselves are locked behind some gameplay. I remember when I first started, messing around with the silly little Kerbals was great fun while trying to figure out the game. 

I agree that they're only useful for surface samples in terms of Science gathering but I think they are very useful when learning the game because it's just fun to watch them waddle around or freak out as you screw up yet another launch.

*I think that's what you're insinuating here, apologies if I've misinterpreted.

 

I might be wrong, but there may also be Crew Reports that can only be done by Kerbals - and if done per Biome (lowspace and landed, ala KSP1), thats a lot of science and incentive to get the heavier Kerbal-ed craft to the destination perhaps after an unKerbal-ed probe.  I personally prefer "probes before crew" style, and also "aircraft before spacecraft" styles given to us in KSP1 through mods like PBC and RP-1 - however if stock is going to do it ONE way, it kinda lets you choose your path early if you want to save science and stay on that certain path - and I'm perfectly fine with that.

Even I don't want to get MkII aircrfaft parts only after I've gone to Duna or Jool, it is a difficult balancing act - and in regards to the SpaceShuttle, it unfortunately requires top tier engines like the Vector (which get unlocked from Kerbal-ed landings on Duna, Jool Moons, etc) - even though IRL, the space shuttle worked +50 years and counting prior to any Mars Human landing.  Its just unfortunate for that, however mods like PBC and RP-1 will tune it to a more realistic approach, which isnt necessarily the goal of the stock game.  

[dansiegel30]

I think Tom said it perfectly - "when some players get to the Mun, they say that they are done", especially when you are able to get enough science from Mun and Minmus biomes to unlock nearly the entire tech tree - they WANT even the casual player to go the distance....yes, you can still scarf as much science as you can from Kerbin/Mun/Minmus, but if you want tier 4 (and eventually 5 and 6), you will have to go MUCH MUCH further than one did before in stock KSP1.

[mattihase]

One thing I am noticing from the build used in the vid is that there doesn't seem to be an "astronaut complex" at the ksc yet.

 

do we have any confirmation as to if persistent kerbonauts are going to be a thing in 0.2?

[theJesuit]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

A quick review of the tech tree (through what we were shown) reveals that we will still be building rockets before we build planes.  Why was this decision made, and what went into making that decision?  Is it because the game is supposed to primarily be about rockets and space, or is it because the (perception of the) majority of fans/players of the game are more interested in rockets?  Or did you just have to make a decision and here we are?

I can see tech tree modding happening quickly, perhaps not in a massively extensive way straight off, like with Simplex et el. but certainly in a Probes before Crew way, and I think sounding rockets/ fireworks before crewed rocket flight.

My thoughts on planes before crewed rocketry are that it should be at least parallel.

So I'm already wondering how that first 'tier/ tab page' (I really can't think this early in the morning today which one it is) can be manipulated to my head canon.

 

Peace

[The Aziz]

37 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

I can see tech tree modding happening quickly, perhaps not in a massively extensive way straight off, like with Simplex et el. but certainly in a Probes before Crew way, and I think sounding rockets/ fireworks before crewed rocket flight.

My thoughts on planes before crewed rocketry are that it should be at least parallel.

So I'm already wondering how that first 'tier/ tab page' (I really can't think this early in the morning today which one it is) can be manipulated to my head canon.

 

Peace

You get probes with 20 science points - that's literally one hop with a capsule. And few more probe launches and you get the aviation with basic parts. That's much better thought out than in KSP1.

Edited December 2, 2023 by The Aziz

[mattihase]

I'm somewhat coming around to the idea of using the "tiered tree" framework for modded trees. If you ignore the idea of tiers and instead set the "critical path" nodes to all be free you can seperate different branches of the tree onto different pages.

[mattihase]

depending on how easy it is to add pages, you could have a mod that splitst he tree into pages, one for rocketry, one for structure parts, one for plane parts, one for rover parts, one for probes and unmanned, one for specialised propulsion (nukes and xenon and whatever hydrogen engines we're getting for interstellar) and one for new science modules, maybe pages dedicated to specific mods too. Reallly let vets who know all the parts well enough to make informed decisions, looking for a different kind of progression from the default tree, choose which bits of the game they want to focus on.

 

[cocoscacao]

Honestly, I'm not very happy now when I think about it. I hope this tree will get redone at some point. I just had to open 5 MD cargo bays manually, simply because there are only two length options for that radius, and the longer version was just one too long for my specific case. Seriously, I hate doing this. More variety please.

Edited December 5, 2023 by cocoscacao

[The Aziz]

Action groups my friend.

[cocoscacao]

11 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Action groups my friend.

That doesn't justify the inconsistency among parts. I don't wanna waste time setting up something like that. Action groups are for connecting unrelated parts.

[The Aziz]

34 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Action groups are for connecting unrelated parts.

eh? Action groups are for whatever you tell them to do. If there's something I'd have to click several times after digging through the part manager, I'd just attach it to action group and save that time.
Of course it doesn't resolve the lack of sizes, but it works for what you have now.

[cocoscacao]

3 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Action groups are for whatever you tell them to do

Yeah, okay. Poor choice of words.

3 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Of course it doesn't resolve the lack of sizes, but it works for what you have now.

True, true. I still hope they'll revise what's available, and revisit tech tree accordingly. Even if it breaks backwards compatibility.

Edited December 5, 2023 by cocoscacao