Kethane Pack 0.9.2 - New cinematic trailer! - 1.0 compatibility update

[GavinZac]

Aha, so I was right at first! I just tested it and found it's true. One Kethane scanner with a delay of 0 *is* as efficient as 1000 scanners (with the default delay) all on the same ship. I should have tested first and not taken what KhaosCorp said at face value. His idea works if you don't change the delay, but is useless if you do.

Now for the final question: What is the purpose of the delay? I see no in-game detriment to it other than keeping time warp down to 50x. With no delay you can usually comfortably cruise along at 1000x which means that instead of having to watch a couple episodes of a TV show, I can instead make coffee or something and have a planet fully scanned.

Sounds good. Makes me want to make this change myself, but would feel cheaty. So...

Instead of it being cheaty, why not add, later in the tech tree for a high amount of science, "version 2" Kethane scanners, with less/no delay. It's one more motivation to keep Sciencing. Don't ban it, legalise it and tax it and call it a product.

[LORDPrometheus]

Hey is the old debug function still here?

If so how do I

A enable it

B use it in game

[Hodo]

Is there a way to rescale the grid to work with RSS?

[psyper]

Hey is the old debug function still here?

If so how do I

A enable it

B use it in game

Add the line:

Debug = True

In the kethane mod settings file.

The debug options are available in the little green box in map mode.

[KhaosCorp]

We were specifically talking about the best you could do with *one* scanner.

I still don't see why there isn't a way, programatically, to get one scanner to scan as quickly as 100 of them (or 1000 of them) do. There is no in-game benefit to quicker scanning EXCEPT the time warp thing, so it's not like you're cheating.

If there is a way, I'd love to know what it is. I'm not really a coder so don't know what it would take.

Welding 1000 scanners into one scanner, using part clipping, and making each 1/1000th the mass and power requirements?

If your just hacking scanners to be super parts why all the back and forth?

Some people actually play KSP for the challenges....if using Kethane one of those challenges is balancing scanning missions in with the rest of what ya got going (using a life support mod adds to this). Not everyone wants EZ-Mode you know....

Also, why waste time with the scannners?....if your not interested in gameplay then just use debug function to expose all the maps.

[JewelShisen]

If your just hacking scanners to be super parts why all the back and forth?

Some people actually play KSP for the challenges....if using Kethane one of those challenges is balancing scanning missions in with the rest of what ya got going (using a life support mod adds to this). Not everyone wants EZ-Mode you know....

Also, why waste time with the scannners?....if your not interested in gameplay then just use debug function to expose all the maps.

What you consider a challenge may not be what others consider a challenge.

[GavinZac]

If your just hacking scanners to be super parts why all the back and forth?

Some people actually play KSP for the challenges....if using Kethane one of those challenges is balancing scanning missions in with the rest of what ya got going (using a life support mod adds to this). Not everyone wants EZ-Mode you know....

You're mistaking "scans instantly" with "scans while under higher warp". In universe, nothing about "balancing ... what ya got going" is different - lifesupport and so on still eat your supplies, electricity is used at the same rate, your orbit doesn't change, the same windows of opportunity go by - but for the player the difference is not having to let the computer run while you do something else. Is that what you call a challenge? Inconveniencing yourself slightly so that you have to watch a movie rather than actually play the game?

You'd think you'd have learned about going on about "ez-mode" when you called Interstellar "a few overpowered config edits".

[Superfluous J]

If your just hacking scanners to be super parts why all the back and forth?

Some people actually play KSP for the challenges....if using Kethane one of those challenges is balancing scanning missions in with the rest of what ya got going (using a life support mod adds to this). Not everyone wants EZ-Mode you know....

Also, why waste time with the scannners?....if your not interested in gameplay then just use debug function to expose all the maps.

You do realize the irony of your statement? Many people feel that by installing Kethane you are cutting out all that gameplay of being forced to lug everything into orbit. Oh, you don't need to launch your ship with 800 orange tanks? Why not just hyperedit it around Moho?

[tmikesecrist3]

I dont think its a EZ mod they want but not every one wants to have to baby sit there scan sat... I would like to set my scan sat to scan and then do something else

[VaporTrail]

The technical limitation is that motion in KSP (and video games in general) is discontinuous. Your ship doesn't move smoothly from one position to another; it jumps in steps. Kethane scanners are coded to only scan a cell once per physics frame. I could change this, but it would be pointless; if more than one scan attempt were made in the same frame, you'd just end up scanning the same cell. It's theoretically possible to look at two on-rails orbital positions and find all the cells along the traversed path, but the mathematics are non-trivial. (Several hours of discussion in #kspmodders yielded only a greater appreciation for the problem.) For the record, if anyone does solve that problem in a complete way, I'd be happy to implement it and remove the logarithmic scaling so detectors work just as fast as expected at warp.

Bored and sick right now, so apologies if you've covered this already.

So what you really need is a way to calculate at least a rough ground track of a satellite between two points in time given the orbital parameters and points in time?

I know that problem's been looked at before.

Tools for Satellite Ground Track and Coverage Analysis

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a286848.pdf

Believe that this has the math you are referencing... and if I understand correctly, you can pretty much ignore anything that deals with an "oblate" body or perturbations... KSP isn't set up that way.

Actually putting that math to use in the mod/game... that's beyond me at the moment.

[BjornKerbannigan]

It has taken me a couple of weeks but I have just finished reading this entire thread. From page 1 to page 432. Now to put everything I learned into practice! Great mod Majiir!

[psyper]

IIRC the mapping sats are able to carry on scanning while you're not viewing them. I originally thought the Kethane mod couldn't do this because the pockets were mapped out as the satellite scanned the terrain but now I realise that the depots are created as soon as you focus on the planet (or something along those lines). Would it not be possible to use the same system that mapping sats use in working out what is covered? and if not why not?

[KhaosCorp]

You're mistaking "scans instantly" with "scans while under higher warp". In universe, nothing about "balancing ... what ya got going" is different - lifesupport and so on still eat your supplies, electricity is used at the same rate, your orbit doesn't change, the same windows of opportunity go by - but for the player the difference is not having to let the computer run while you do something else. Is that what you call a challenge? Inconveniencing yourself slightly so that you have to watch a movie rather than actually play the game?

You'd think you'd have learned about going on about "ez-mode" when you called Interstellar "a few overpowered config edits".

Try looking at dates before ya throw posts back in someones face.....

I made that comment within days of KSPI being released....and while Fractal has turned it into a well rounded and balanced mod, in its first week or so it WAS basicaly some OP parts and config edits...

And FYI, the scanners run perfectly fine on high time warp AS IS....if you know what your doing.

There is nothing wrong with the scanning mechanics!

All this talk of setting scaners and watching a movie?....wtf?? If it takes you that long to scan ANY body in ksp YOUR doing something wrong. Even Eve only takes 15min or so to FULLY map in time warp.....

Thats not even taking into account that A FULL KETHANE MAP IS DAMN NEAR POINTLESS....even the largest bodys in the game can be drained dry with the scan map filled in to 75% or so....

Another thing to consider, the map does not need to be done all at once. I cant ever recall scanning for kethane for more than 3min or so real time (other than for testing). During regular gameplay I only scan as needed, or when I have little gaps in other stuff im doing. Really never any need to scan a planet completly as soon as ya get a scan sat there...

[Hodo]

I am just looking to figure out how to resize the grid so it fits the RSS Kerbin planets.

[Superfluous J]

And FYI, the scanners run perfectly fine on high time warp AS IS....if you know what your doing.

I assume by "know what you're doing" you mean "put more Kethane scanners on a probe than any even remotely realistic simulation of reality any time ever in the history of anything would put anywhere" then yes, you are absolutely correct.

I refuse to kludge together a hack of a probe just to get around a ridiculously restrictive limitation that has a much easier fix.

And until someone tells me ONE thing that my modulemanager config makes easier EXCEPT time warp, I will use it with an 100% clear conscience. The only thing I regret is that I can't warp even faster with it.

[JewelShisen]

Try looking at dates before ya throw posts back in someones face.....

I made that comment within days of KSPI being released....and while Fractal has turned it into a well rounded and balanced mod, in its first week or so it WAS basicaly some OP parts and config edits...

And FYI, the scanners run perfectly fine on high time warp AS IS....if you know what your doing.

There is nothing wrong with the scanning mechanics!

All this talk of setting scaners and watching a movie?....wtf?? If it takes you that long to scan ANY body in ksp YOUR doing something wrong. Even Eve only takes 15min or so to FULLY map in time warp.....

Thats not even taking into account that A FULL KETHANE MAP IS DAMN NEAR POINTLESS....even the largest bodys in the game can be drained dry with the scan map filled in to 75% or so....

Another thing to consider, the map does not need to be done all at once. I cant ever recall scanning for kethane for more than 3min or so real time (other than for testing). During regular gameplay I only scan as needed, or when I have little gaps in other stuff im doing. Really never any need to scan a planet completly as soon as ya get a scan sat there...

Let us see you prove it then.

I assume by "know what you're doing" you mean "put more Kethane scanners on a probe than any even remotely realistic simulation of reality any time ever in the history of anything would put anywhere" then yes, you are absolutely correct.

I refuse to kludge together a hack of a probe just to get around a ridiculously restrictive limitation that has a much easier fix.

And until someone tells me ONE thing that my modulemanager config makes easier EXCEPT time warp, I will use it with an 100% clear conscience. The only thing I regret is that I can't warp even faster with it.

He claims that all the time and yet has never offered anything to prove his claims.

[Psycix]

I still think it's weird how the scanners don't scan faster with timewarp. It's as if they slow down in time.

I consider putting them to 0 scan time a fix, not a cheat.

[GarlandMP]

It has taken me a couple of weeks but I have just finished reading this entire thread. From page 1 to page 432. Now to put everything I learned into practice! Great mod Majiir!

So, that is a confirmation that you do not have to have your scanning craft active in order for the scanning to continue? I can go on with other missions, yes?

-Garland

[JewelShisen]

So, that is a confirmation that you do not have to have your scanning craft active in order for the scanning to continue? I can go on with other missions, yes?

-Garland

Incorrect. You still have to have your scanner active.

[GarlandMP]

Incorrect. You still have to have your scanner active.

No, the scanner is activated, but does the ship with the scanner need to be active?

[taniwha]

Yes, the ship needs to be active. The reason is for proper resource (ElectricCharge) handling. My understanding is Majiir considers that to be more important than a bit of convenience, and I am inclined to agree with him.

[edit]bah, noticed a missing word after I was quoted

Edited March 1, 2014 by taniwha

[GarlandMP]

Yes, the needs to be active. The reason is for proper resource (ElectricCharge) handling. My understanding is Majiir considers that to be more important than a bit of convenience, and I am inclined to agree with him.

Okay! Thanks! Now I know and I can properly work around this.

[Sirius Celestia]

can i get the 0.22 version? (in 0.23, my KSP is 10 times more lag than 0.22)

[The Blue Kraken]

It says there is an error in loading the files for Kethane, so do I uninstall and reinstall?

[kiwiak]

Hello

I am thinking about making mod that uses kethane resource grid system.

It woudl be biological survey mod, player woudl search for microorganisms for science.

Kethane grid woudl be usefull for indication - "i was here before so next time i will search in another hex" as well as just managing where microorganisms are present and where are no.

Organisms woudl be somewhat another resource, but without extracting them anddetection method woudl be different from standard KethaneDetector module.

Player woudl gather surface samples and than study them in lab module, so actually determining if there is miroorganism resource present in specific grid segment woudl sometimes occur outside specific grid segment. And standard part with detector module has to be inside segment while scannig it.

And i am wondering - woudl such plugin, not using standard modules provided for modders be against kethane license terms?

Edited March 12, 2014 by kiwiak