Thoughts On Workspace Vehicle Saving?

[Dr Mayhem22]

Curious to know what the community opinion is on vehicle workspace saving.  In KSP 1 it was nice to simply name a craft, save it, and click save every once and a while to commit your progress.  In KSP 2, you need to name the vehicle, which may have many workspaces beneath it as you make changes.  Every time you commit changes you need to go through the full save-as workspace system, renaming and checking you're in the right workspace/vehicle.  It's, as far as I can ever reason, an intricate solution to a problem that never existed.  You would have to name vehicles under different Mk. version numbers (or any convention you preferred) in KSP 1, but it was the same saving system every game has ever used, and as a result easy to use and did everything anyone could really need.  KSP 2's feels incredibly contrived.  So the question is, what do you think of it?  Should it be reverted or are there people who really enjoy the new system?

[The Aziz]

Heeeere we go again.

Am I the only one here who understands the system, how it works, what it's for?

Why should I bother with countless separate files for my aircraft or lifters or payloads or orbital station pieces, if I can have them all nicely sorted within workspaces and just hit the rocket icon to launch what I want? The clutter in files in KSP1 was the problem, and subassemblies were barely useful due to "only single root" thing. Both of these have been solved. 

[Mickel]

I suspect it's one of those things that an in-game tutorial would be good for.

I get the why/what.  Not dug into the 'how' yet.  The reason they've done it makes perfect sense.

[HebaruSan]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Am I the only one here who understands the system, how it works, what it's for?

Probably.

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Why should I bother with countless separate files for my aircraft or lifters or payloads or orbital station pieces, if I can have them all nicely sorted within workspaces and just hit the rocket icon to launch what I want?

That sounds like having multiple vehicles in one workspace. How does that square with only being able to save one vehicle name per workspace?

Edited December 25, 2023 by HebaruSan

[Superfluous J]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Am I the only one here who understands the system, how it works, what it's for?

You explained it to me once, and I still don't know how it works.

My favorite is when I save 2 workspaces with the same name, each with a ship of the same name, and I somehow get 2 entries in the "load a workspace" screen.

[modus]

8 hours ago, The Aziz said:

 

Am I the only one here who understands the system, how it works, what it's for?

Can you explain it again, please? For a friend cuz I totally get it

[Kerbart]

The problem isn’t the workspace  concept. That’s for people who want to utilize it, and if not, then they don’t.

the problem is the bad implementation around it:

• Only one ship name
• Ship name defaults to “fly safe” instead of workspace name
• Spamming save folder with autosaves
• Despite the autosave spamming, not autosaving when launching
• No “save” option, only “save as…” and it’s easy to save in the wrong slot

I think that most of the resistance against it comes from the bad interface, not from the workspace concept itself.

[The Aziz]

11 hours ago, Mickel said:

I suspect it's one of those things that an in-game tutorial would be good for.

Of course. Even out-game, on official channels since so many people are confused.

11 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

That sounds like having multiple vehicles in one workspace. How does that square with only being able to save one vehicle name per workspace?

I noticed something and I'm inclined to report it, that switching between assemblies in a workspace does not change the active name. That is somewhat of a problem, because right now vehicle names are not very useful when saving in VAB - but they are, or should be, when launching straight from KSC (anyone does that?)

5 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

You explained it to me once, and I still don't know how it works.

My favorite is when I save 2 workspaces with the same name, each with a ship of the same name, and I somehow get 2 entries in the "load a workspace" screen.

Wouldn't one be an autosave? Because I certainly can't see two manually saved workspaces with the same name. I don't think that's even possible because the actual files have the same name as your workspace, except for the autosaves. And you can't have two files with identical name, extension in one folder in Windows environment.

3 hours ago, modus said:

Can you explain it again, please? For a friend cuz I totally get it

I think already have about a dozens times in the last 10 months. The saving mechanism is probably bugged or not fully implemented, but the workspace system works. You can have a family of vehicles saved in one workspace. Be it planes, standarized launch vehicles, satellites, or even your orbital station cut to pieces so you can grab each piece, attach a lifter and send it to space one after one. Back in the day you would have to resort to either separate files, or subassemblies where you'd have to fiddle with root parts because anything not attached to root was a ghost piece. Now you can work on three pieces of the same rocket separately in one workspace, and then connect them together with four clicks because you can grab and attach every part.

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Only one ship name

Most likely a bug, doubt that was intended.

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Ship name defaults to “fly safe” instead of workspace name

Not a bug. When I name my workspace "Aircraft", I don't necessarily want the first or second plane to be called Aircraft. 

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Spamming save folder with autosaves

One per workspace or more? Cuz if it's one, it's not a problem. Sometimes you may forget to manually save something you worked on before, and there it is.

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Despite the autosave spamming, not autosaving when launching

Clearly a bug, to be reported (or has it been already?)

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

No “save” option, only “save as…” and it’s easy to save in the wrong slot

Is it? Since you enter two names, it's safer to double check what you're saving.

The whole system isn't well explained and has some rough bits sticking out here and there, mostly related to naming and saving, but the general idea works and is out there to be used.

So my current issues are: vehicles not retaining their names (there could be a nametag icon next to the "launch assembly" button for name change) and the saving process should only include workspace name so it doesn't get confusing.

I see why people don't get it, because it's not the most clear thing in the world, very far from it. But once you get the hang of it, you may see how convenient it is.

[greentoucan]

I prefer saving ships as the ship name and thats it. Show me my saved ships in a group like KSP 1. So much simpler, no need whatsoever to redesign the wheel here. I've accidentally overwritten previous ships and it sucks. lol

[Kerbart]

14 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Heeeere we go again.

Am I the only one here who understands the system, how it works, what it's for?

Clearly, yes. Based on this post I went back to the VAB, taking up the challenge to have two vessels in one workspace. After a couple of minutes of frustration—the VAB insists on centering the view around the first vessel—I had to search online to learne that [Home] allows re centering the view in the VAB.

There's no other way of learning this. The tutorial doesn't cover it. It's not carried over from KSP1. Without knowing this trick ("developers hate it when you do this!") using a workspace for multiple vessels is nearly impossible.

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

I noticed something and I'm inclined to report it, that switching between assemblies in a workspace does not change the active name. That is somewhat of a problem, because right now vehicle names are not very useful when saving in VAB - but they are, or should be, when launching straight from KSC (anyone does that?)

It's not a bug, it's a feature. When you look at a workspace file you'll see that the assembly name is stored in the root of the workspace, right next to the workspace name.

  "Metadata": {
    "VersionString": "0.2",
    "Name": "Communications Satellite",
    "VehicleName": "Comsat 1",
    "Description": "Medium relay capable of geostat orbit.",

It would make sense to have the vehicle name attached to the assembly nodes but for some reason the decision was made not to do that. I agree that it would be very helpful to fox that.

[The Aziz]

15 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Clearly, yes. Based on this post I went back to the VAB, taking up the challenge to have two vessels in one workspace. After a couple of minutes of frustration—the VAB insists on centering the view around the first vessel—I had to search online to learne that [Home] allows re centering the view in the VAB.

Weird. It says that in the game's input settings. Did you try looking there?

Also, the "KSP2 Keybinds" thread is pinned on this very forum since February. Since you're already here.. Besides, and that also has been repeated countless times, middle mouse click focuses the camera on chosen part.

21 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

It's not carried over from KSP1

It wasn't supposed to. It's not KSP1, never aimed to be.

10 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

It's not a bug, it's a feature. When you look at a workspace file you'll see that the assembly name is stored in the root of the workspace, right next to the workspace name.

  "Metadata": {
    "VersionString": "0.2",
    "Name": "Communications Satellite",
    "VehicleName": "Comsat 1",
    "Description": "Medium relay capable of geostat orbit.",

It would make sense to have the vehicle name attached to the assembly nodes but for some reason the decision was made not to do that. I agree that it would be very helpful to fox that.

It still makes sense to report it. Feedback is feedback, if the current implementation isn't quite there, it means they should take a second look at it. Also, a little bit lower in that same file there's a

 "Assemblies": [
    {
      "assembly": "",
      "Assembly": { [the whole craft goes there]
	"isMainAssembly": false,

The "" are probably a place to put assembly/vehicle name but it's not implemented. That was tested in workspace file with two vehicles and yes, each one has these lines. (one has "true" bool value) Deliberate move? Accidentally ommitted? We can only guess.

[HebaruSan]

2 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

 "Assemblies": [
    {
      "assembly": "",
      "Assembly": { [the whole craft goes there]
	"isMainAssembly": false,

The "" are probably a place to put assembly/vehicle name but it's not implemented.

That looks like a bug to me, some rogue line of code where they typed "Assembly" with the wrong capitalization. Using the same word twice to mean two different things depending on the capitalization is very unlikely to be intentional.

[The Aziz]

Well, yes. The game probably was supposed to read "assembly" to get the name, and look for part list after "Assembly". Looks intentional to me. Regardless, that particular bit doesn't work so we can only play guesswork.

[HebaruSan]

17 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Well, yes. The game probably was supposed to read "assembly" to get the name, and look for part list after "Assembly". Looks intentional to me. Regardless, that particular bit doesn't work so we can only play guesswork.

Luckily we do not need to speculate. "assembly" is marked with the [Obsolete] attribute.

[Kerbart]

49 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

It still makes sense to report it. Feedback is feedback, if the current implementation isn't quite there, it means they should take a second look at it.

Ok, I filed a bug report. Regardless of current behavior is intended or not, we all agree that vessel name should be tied to the vessel, not the workspace.

[MechBFP]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Now you can work on three pieces of the same rocket separately in one workspace, and then connect them together with four clicks because you can grab and attach every part.

And then spend 10 times the amount of time fixing the staging in comparison to just finding and loading a separate workspace. 
Not seeing the benefit here at the moment anyway. 

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

Luckily we do not need to speculate. "assembly" is marked with the [Obsolete] attribute.

The wonders of separete social channel. In any case, I hope they're aware of the rest of it (that the craft name has only one line in the entire file, regardless of how many assemblies are in it)

38 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

And then spend 10 times the amount of time fixing the staging in comparison to just finding and loading a separate workspace. 
Not seeing the benefit here at the moment anyway. 

One very specific possible use case that I came up with but haven't personally seen yet. But the rest? Have been using them since day 1.

[Vanamonde]

It needs a rework or at least some in-game instruction because I struggle with it. The other day, for example, I discovered that I had somehow over-written every ship in my VAB with the design I was currently working on, even though the previous saves retained their original names. I'm pretty sure it was user error, but I have no idea how I managed it. While I'm here, why does it always ask me if I want to over-write something even when I'm saving the current craft for the first time? If I haven't saved it before, what I am over-writing? 

[The Aziz]

37 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

why does it always ask me if I want to over-write something even when I'm saving the current craft for the first time? If I haven't saved it before, what I am over-writing? 

My best guess? The same reason why dragging the camera with RMB can open the part manager when the cursor is over a vehicle. It's a feature that was hastily implemented without thinking about conditions. A prealpha remnant, if you like.

We know that the save/load/overwrite process needs a lot of work and I hope the team also knows that and won't wait until something like 0.5

[MechBFP]

43 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

It needs a rework or at least some in-game instruction because I struggle with it. The other day, for example, I discovered that I had somehow over-written every ship in my VAB with the design I was currently working on, even though the previous saves retained their original names. I'm pretty sure it was user error, but I have no idea how I managed it. While I'm here, why does it always ask me if I want to over-write something even when I'm saving the current craft for the first time? If I haven't saved it before, what I am over-writing? 

That would be the auto-saves it is overwriting. 

[Superfluous J]

11 hours ago, The Aziz said:

16 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

You explained it to me once, and I still don't know how it works.

My favorite is when I save 2 workspaces with the same name, each with a ship of the same name, and I somehow get 2 entries in the "load a workspace" screen.

Wouldn't one be an autosave? Because I certainly can't see two manually saved workspaces with the same name.

I think that's it. I checked again after this and couldn't find any examples of it. I often go through and clean up workspaces I don't intend to ever use anymore. And from what I recall, when I had 2 that looked to be the same name they were unfinished versions of the final workspace.

[Jacke]

Welp, I don't have KSP 2 at the moment (current hardware can't run it and I really can't afford it).

But skimming here tells me the KSP 2 gamesave system is confusing some really good KSP players.  Whether it's UI or something internal or both, it's not quite right.  And it really isn't explained to the player, when its complexity indicates it should be explained.

That's not making KSP 2 look good to me.  Talk about barely being alpha grade, but KSP 2 has been released (even if Early Access), but a save/restore system is a core game mechanic that shouldn't be in this state at this time.

[HebaruSan]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

But skimming here tells me the KSP 2 gamesave system is confusing some really good KSP players.  Whether it's UI or something internal or both, it's not quite right.  And it really isn't explained to the player, when its complexity indicates it should be explained.

The main save/load system is adequate with a few minor flaws.
The topic here is the UI when you save a craft that you're designing in the VAB.

[Capt. Hunt]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:06 AM, Kerbart said:

The problem isn’t the workspace  concept. That’s for people who want to utilize it, and if not, then they don’t.

the problem is the bad implementation around it:

• Only one ship name
• Ship name defaults to “fly safe” instead of workspace name
• Spamming save folder with autosaves
• Despite the autosave spamming, not autosaving when launching
• No “save” option, only “save as…” and it’s easy to save in the wrong slot

I think that most of the resistance against it comes from the bad interface, not from the workspace concept itself.

I'd like to know why half of my craft launch as Fly Safe-47 instead of the name I set for the craft?

Also, they occasionally just change mid-flight to Default Name-38.