Tech Tree Balance Megathread

[Vl3d]

We need a place to centralize our feedback about the tech tree balance, node order, which parts should go in which nodes, science points costs etc. You can be very specific about details of particular parts, part types, grouping etc. Please stay on topic.

• Tier 1 nodes are unlocked too quickly (only 2-3 flights), they should require more science points. A regular player doing the most basic things can unlock too much using only parts from Starting Rocketry.
• My ideal starting progression would be: "launch" a Kerbal out of a building / unlock Flea SRB, the Stayputnik, smallest antennas and the fairings / unlock the Mk1 command pod, the parachute and the small stabilizer/ unlock the FL-T100 / FL-T200, the Swivel, the TD-12 stack decoupler / unlock the heat shield, solar panel and-or battery, Science Jr. etc.
• Stack decouplers, fairings and adaptors of a certain size should unlock very close to the first fuel tanks of that size. Otherwise we end up with weird looking rockets - it's a forced, unnecessary limitation.
• RA-100 and Communotron 88-88 antennas should not be unlocked in the same node. The bigger / heavier one should be unlocked in a node before the deployable one.
• ASCM-A (Air Sniffer - 1 ton) should be unlocked in a node way before the ASCM-B (Little Sniffer -50 kg), just like with the "Science Jr." and the "Science Jr. Jr."
• What is the point of unlocking the Clamp-O-Tron (S size part) before the Mk1-3 "Gumball" command pod?
• Why is the RoveMax TR-2L (M sized wheel) unlocked in Autonomous Sampling, right after the RoveMax M1 (S sized wheel)? The TR-2L should come in a later node.
• Why is the FC-01 (XS Fuel Cell) unlocked in Tier 3 instead of earlier?
• Why is the LRW-375 (L Reaction Wheel) placed in the Large Aerodynamics node instead of inside the Enlarged Power Systems node? Consider that the MRW-250 (M Reaction Wheel) is unlocked with the Durable Power Systems node.
• Why is the CC375-D (L docking port) unlocked in Tier 4 instead of Tier 3?
• Also I am not sure about unlocking the HS-I Deluxe (M inflatable heat shield - 2 tons) in the same node as the HS-500 (XL heat shield - 4.8 tons). This would require some playtesting to check the balance. Any opinions?

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[PDCWolf]

I think balance-specific feedback is kinda moot until other restrictions (namely resources) roll in. As much as people like to ignore me, the glaring issue that is solid rockets gives all the balance answers you need whilst having no block button.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Vl3d]

22 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I think balance-specific feedback is kinda moot until other restrictions (namely resources) roll in.

The discussion can evolve as more features come online. But for what we have now, there are things that can be improved.

22 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

the glaring issue that is solid rockets gives all the balance answers you need whilst having no block button

Can you be a little more clear about what you mean?

I agree that "strap on more boosters" is not the ideal way to play the game, but the improvements to heating force you to consider TWR and velocity in the atmosphere more than before. But this doesn't seem to be a tech tree balance issue.

[The Aziz]

31 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Tier 1 nodes are unlocked too quickly (only 2-3 flights), they should require more science points.

Disagreed. You're an experienced player, of course you're gonna do it quickly. I'm pretty sure the team have done their research on new players and how much science they collect, how quickly they're going through the tier 1. Hell, they even explicitly said they've done an early playtest in KSP1 to see how different the science collection experiences are between fresh and advanced players. And the new players may not be successful every time so the progression will drag a lil longer. So it's not 3 flights. It's 3 flights for you and a bunch of people here.

Also, the point of the game to send you out there to find new worlds, not stall around Kerbin. Tier 1 is meant to be done rather quickly. Just look how rapidly the main missions go: launch→suborbital→orbit→Mun→Minmus (all technically doable in tier1 tech)→straight to interplanetary.

[PDCWolf]

37 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Can you be a little more clear about what you mean?

I agree that "strap on more boosters" is not the ideal way to play the game, but the improvements to heating force you to consider TWR and velocity in the atmosphere more than before. But this doesn't seem to be a tech tree balance issue.

We start the tech tree with liquid fuel and liquid engines. What's the point of solid rockets now? They can't be the "cheaper alternative" they were in KSP1, because cost is not longer an issue. Unless you force yourself to use them, they're a waste of points that will literally add nothing to your program. My personal guess is this is exactly why they're obligatory to unlock on the way to tier 2, because they're an obvious skip otherwise.

 

[Vl3d]

Started a new Exploration campaign on Normal - science points from first suborbital missions and experiments (using only starting rocketry node parts): 227.

That's 227 science points just from taking a soil sample from KSC, pressing spacebar with an engine once, launching suborbital twice - landing on land once and in water once, pressing the Science button when in new environments.

Everything I did is with a very small rocket, no min-maxing. So you go from having only the first parts available to this:

Now I can basically do a Mun / Minmus landing and unlock all Tier 1.

My point is that it does not give enough time for a new player to get accustomed to the parts in each node and learn what they are, what the do, how to use them. A regular player doing the most basic things can unlock too much using only parts from Starting Rocketry.

The pleasure of unlocking nodes is having to look at the parts just ahead and realize that you can't really progress efficiently without them. You have to want to unlock the next node, you have to need those parts. This is missing in the Tier 1 progression, it just ruins the game for beginners. In Tiers 2+ I feel like I really have to work for every node and be strategic.. I can look ahead at parts and see what would be useful.. it feels much better.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Vl3d

[Kerbart]

4 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

We start the tech tree with liquid fuel and liquid engines. What's the point of solid rockets now? They can't be the "cheaper alternative" they were in KSP1, because cost is not longer an issue. Unless you force yourself to use them, they're a waste of points that will literally add nothing to your program. My personal guess is this is exactly why they're obligatory to unlock on the way to tier 2, because they're an obvious skip otherwise.

 

SRB's are still my goto if I need raw thrust. It's a lot easier to improve TWR with SRB's than with liquid fuel, especially if I don't need that thrust anymore when some of my LF has been burned up, and we're higher up with enough velocity to worry less about gravity losses. Of course, I could throttle down at that point, but I'd rather just run 100% throttle all the way with staging in between than managing thrust. Call me lazy. Designed that way, my launch vehicles also tend to be simpler.

[Vl3d]

7 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

We start the tech tree with liquid fuel and liquid engines. What's the point of solid rockets now? They can't be the "cheaper alternative" they were in KSP1, because cost is not longer an issue. Unless you force yourself to use them, they're a waste of points that will literally add nothing to your program. My personal guess is this is exactly why they're obligatory to unlock on the way to tier 2, because they're an obvious skip otherwise.

I understand and agree. It's very similar to the point I made above.

[hatterson]

Just now, Vl3d said:

Started a new Exploration campaign on Normal - science points from first suborbital missions and experiments (using only starting rocketry node parts): 227.

That's 227 science points just from taking a soil sample from KSC, pressing spacebar with an engine once, launching suborbital twice - landing on land once and in water once, pressing the Science button when in new environments.

Everything I did is with a very small rocket, no min-maxing. So you go from having only the first parts available to this:

Now I can basically do a Mun / Minmus landing and unlock all Tier 1.

My point is that it does not give enough time for a new player to get accustomed to the parts in each node and learn what they are, what the do, how to use them. A regular player doing the most basic things can unlock too much using only parts from Starting Rocketry.

One of the tough things in balancing tier 1 is that all of us veteran players, even when we're launching "newbie" rockets, still know the valuable nodes. I know that getting Environmental Science is an obvious choice because it gives more ways to collect points. I know a need a heat shield to do orbital flight (normally).  etc.

If a new player instead look at the tree and says "oh man, basic docking would be cool" or "hey micro-construction would be fun to build small satellites" they might drop all of their points on things that don't actually help them progress and end up sort of soft locked. So the early nodes need to be cheap enough that you can easily dig yourself out of that hole. Once you've got tier 1 mostly unlocked then it's pretty easy to dig yourself out either by doing Duna/Eve or by just landing on the mun/minmus in different biomes a few times so in tier 2 and beyond you have much more flexibility to ramp up the node cost and slow down unlocks if you're doing slow progression flights.

Granted one way this might be alleviated would be to have additional secondary missions like launching into a polar orbit and having the existing secondary missions like launching a satellite and having a circular or elliptical order unlocked earlier since even a newbie can very reasonably do those with only a few nodes unlocked if they're able to get to orbit in the first place (and they're also valuable in teaching new players the ropes)

8 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

We start the tech tree with liquid fuel and liquid engines. What's the point of solid rockets now? They can't be the "cheaper alternative" they were in KSP1, because cost is not longer an issue. Unless you force yourself to use them, they're a waste of points that will literally add nothing to your program. My personal guess is this is exactly why they're obligatory to unlock on the way to tier 2, because they're an obvious skip otherwise.

 

The purpose of solid rocket boosters is raw power. If a new player is struggling to get off the launchpad, its far more natural for them to strap a couple solid rocket boosters to the side than it is to strap LOX stacks to the side.

[PDCWolf]

15 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

SRB's are still my goto if I need raw thrust. It's a lot easier to improve TWR with SRB's than with liquid fuel, especially if I don't need that thrust anymore when some of my LF has been burned up, and we're higher up with enough velocity to worry less about gravity losses. Of course, I could throttle down at that point, but I'd rather just run 100% throttle all the way with staging in between than managing thrust. Call me lazy. Designed that way, my launch vehicles also tend to be simpler.

1 minute ago, hatterson said:

One of the tough things in balancing tier 1 is that all of us veteran players, even when we're launching "newbie" rockets, still know the valuable nodes. I know that getting Environmental Science is an obvious choice because it gives more ways to collect points. I know a need a heat shield to do orbital flight (normally).  etc.

If a new player instead look at the tree and says "oh man, basic docking would be cool" or "hey micro-construction would be fun to build small satellites" they might drop all of their points on things that don't actually help them progress and end up sort of soft locked. So the early nodes need to be cheap enough that you can easily dig yourself out of that hole. Once you've got tier 1 mostly unlocked then it's pretty easy to dig yourself out either by doing Duna/Eve or by just landing on the mun/minmus in different biomes a few times so in tier 2 and beyond you have much more flexibility to ramp up the node cost and slow down unlocks if you're doing slow progression flights.

Granted one way this might be alleviated would be to have additional secondary missions like launching into a polar orbit and having the existing secondary missions like launching a satellite and having a circular or elliptical order unlocked earlier since even a newbie can very reasonably do those with only a few nodes unlocked if they're able to get to orbit in the first place (and they're also valuable in teaching new players the ropes)

The purpose of solid rocket boosters is raw power. If a new player is struggling to get off the launchpad, its far more natural for them to strap a couple solid rocket boosters to the side than it is to strap LOX stacks to the side.

Whilst I agree their TWR is better than an equivalent-sized liquid combo, their weight is also much higher (another limitation gone), and I don't think first time players are steered to understand any of that at some point, specially since it's both a very early node and an obligatory one.

[modus]

I know there's already a mod for it, but I'd still prefer a (stock) probes before crew tech tree. 

Even for new players, I believe creating a progressing space program requires unmanned flights first.

It would also make progression (a little) slower imo.

[hatterson]

15 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Whilst I agree their TWR is better than an equivalent-sized liquid combo, their weight is also much higher (another limitation gone), and I don't think first time players are steered to understand any of that at some point, specially since it's both a very early node and an obligatory one.

For equivalent sizes, solid boosters are either lighter than engine + fuel tank or very close in weight.

Thumper is 7.65T whereas 3x FL-T400 tanks + LV-T30 "Reliant" engine is 8T.

Hammer is 3.56T whereas FL-T400 tank + LV-T30 "Reliant" engine is 3.5T.

Flea is 1.5T whereas the lightest non vacuum engine at that tech is the Reliant at 1.25T for the engine alone even without fuel.

[PDCWolf]

3 minutes ago, hatterson said:

For equivalent sizes, solid boosters are either lighter than engine + fuel tank or very close in weight.

Thumper is 7.65T whereas 3x FL-T400 tanks + LV-T30 "Reliant" engine is 8T.

Hammer is 3.56T whereas FL-T400 tank + LV-T30 "Reliant" engine is 3.5T.

Flea is 1.5T whereas the lightest non vacuum engine at that tech is the Reliant at 1.25T for the engine alone even without fuel.

Yes, which is pretty pointless because weight is another limitation not included in the game unlike KSP1 where the pad had weight limits, making solid rockets more and more pointless. I'm sure someone launches solid boosters to space as a last payload kick but still, that's certainly a small minority.

[Vl3d]

2 hours ago, modus said:

I know there's already a mod for it, but I'd still prefer a (stock) probes before crew tech tree.

Of course probes should come before crew. Same for SRBs.
In a normal universe, in which the devs actually listened to the players and the N modders that came before (excluding @Nertea, for he is the Destroyer of Fun), progression would be something like this:

1. You get the ability to "launch" a Kerbal out of a building. You learn to control the kerbal, walk with him, do a crew observation / soil sample of KSC;
2. Next node you unlock is a Flea SRB, the Stayputnik, smallest antennas and the fairings. You launch the probe, you see how it goes when you have minimal reaction control in and out of the atmosphere and a very small internal battery. The "launch your first rocket" mission gets completed here and you get some more points.
3. Unlock the Mk1 command pod, the parachute and the small stabilizer. You launch the kerbal in the pod on top of Flea, deploy the parachute, do science etc.
4. Get the FL-T100 / FL-T200, the Swivel, the TD-12 stack decoupler. Now you can start testing two-stage designs with the Stayputnik before launching an actual kerbal out of the atmosphere without a heat shield, if you're so inclined.
5. Unlock the heat shield, solar panel and / or battery, Science Jr.  - now you can go orbital with a kerbal or a probe, maybe even do a munar fly-by or impact.
6. Unlock all the other beginner parts progressively, 1-2 nodes at a time, as you feel the need for new parts because you're starting to understand the possibilities.

Why is this actually so hard to implement? I don't know... it's like the KSP tech tree curse or something...
But it's definite how I would like to play the game as a beginner.

PS: Why, oh why do people not understand that the point of Tier 1 for veterans is not to land on Tylo with the first node parts, but to actually go through the historic progression of space flight and have fun around Kerbin? Just like a beginner would.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Vl3d

[Kerbart]

54 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

[...] and I don't think first time players are steered to understand any of that at some point, specially since it's both a very early node and an obligatory one.

And I don't think the tech tree should purely, only, and exclusively be tailored towards first time players. It's very important that the game doesn't provide extreme hurdles for first timers, but that doesn't mean that options should be not available  for experienced players, who can have all kinds of reasons to pick them over liquid fuel engines. Even if some players don't see the point in it. "It's not needed because I personally don't want it" is generally a position that's hard to defend.

[PDCWolf]

16 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

And I don't think the tech tree should purely, only, and exclusively be tailored towards first time players. It's very important that the game doesn't provide extreme hurdles for first timers, but that doesn't mean that options should be not available  for experienced players, who can have all kinds of reasons to pick them over liquid fuel engines. Even if some players don't see the point in it. "It's not needed because I personally don't want it" is generally a position that's hard to defend.

Wouldn't it be easier for experienced players to unlock whatever they want almost independently of where in the tier it is? we're talking about completing the full tier in your first or second flight.

Just to be clear, I agree with you that the game shouldn't be entirely tailored to first time players, but in this case, with T1 being so cheap and easy to get, I don't see how making it not obligatory (or keeping it obligatory and maybe making it clearer for first time players why srbs are a thing) should affect us.

[chemieglennie]

I always played KSP1 with the "better than staying manned" mod.

It makes so much more sense to start with small one way probes. You can then experiment and it doesn't matter if you run out of fuel or crash.

Later on I would send probes to each planet to collect some science and act as a comm relay, before attempting to send kerbals.

[The Aziz]

4 minutes ago, chemieglennie said:

Later on I would send probes to each planet to collect some science and act as a comm relay, before attempting to send kerbals.

Which you can because probe cores are like second on third node on the tech tree. Quite literally unlockable after a first hop. Basic aircraft parts aren't too far either. People can switch to unmanned/winged within minutes after starting the save.

KSP1 had those way further down the tech tree.

[chemieglennie]

18 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Which you can because probe cores are like second on third node on the tech tree. Quite literally unlockable after a first hop. Basic aircraft parts aren't too far either. People can switch to unmanned/winged within minutes after starting the save.

KSP1 had those way further down the tech tree.

Fair point, that's what I've starting doing in my first play through. Just think the first few unlocks should be probes.

[Superfluous J]

I don't know if they should do it, but I want the next-size fairing the MOMENT I get any of that size tank.

[Vl3d]

I added extra feedback in the OP:

• ASCM-A (Air Sniffer - 1 ton) should be unlocked in a node way before the ASCM-B (Little Sniffer -50 kg), just like with the "Science Jr." and the "Science Jr. Jr."
• What is the point of unlocking the Clamp-O-Tron (S size part) before the Mk1-3 "Gumball" command pod?
• Why is the RoveMax TR-2L (M sized wheel) unlocked in Autonomous Sampling, right after the RoveMax M1 (S sized wheel)? The TR-2L should come in a later node.
• Why is the FC-01 (XS Fuel Cell) unlocked in Tier 3 instead of earlier?
• Why is the LRW-375 (L Reaction Wheel) placed in the Large Aerodynamics node instead of inside the Enlarged Power Systems node? Consider that the MRW-250 (M Reaction Wheel) is unlocked with the Durable Power Systems node.
• Why is the CC375-D (L docking port) unlocked in Tier 4 instead of Tier 3?
• Also I am not sure about unlocking the HS-I Deluxe (M inflatable heat shield - 2 tons) in the same node as the HS-500 (XL heat shield - 4.8 tons). This would require some playtesting to check the balance. Any opinions?

Overall I think there are some balance changes needed for the Tech Tree, but these are relatively minor. The biggest problem is with Tier 1 progression and the Starting Rocketry node.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[Periple]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:52 PM, Vl3d said:

Of course probes should come before crew. Same for SRBs.
In a normal universe, in which the devs actually listened to the players and the N modders that came before (excluding @Nertea, for he is the Destroyer of Fun), progression would be something like this:

I really hate it when you pretend to speak for the community! I and a lot of others disagree with you about this and a lot of other things but here you go again saying your personal controversial opinions as if it represented a broad consensus and the devs just are too dumb or don’t care to listen to it! 

[regex]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:52 AM, Vl3d said:

Tier 1 nodes are unlocked too quickly (only 2-3 flights), they should require more science points. A regular player doing the most basic things can unlock too much using only parts from Starting Rocketry.

No.

I thought the entire tier 1 went very quickly too but then I looked back as I got deep into tier 2 and realized that it makes perfect sense for an experienced player to blow through that. My early game can literally be two launches, and that's fan-effing-tastic. Don't waste my time, the real game for me starts in tier 2 when I'm sending stuff to other planets.

On the whole manned vs. probe argument, I don't actually care one way or the other but I don't think Kerbals should be held down by humanity's path forward. They're overly-enthusiastic aliens who started their orbital program with methalox engines and their entire concept (and view of the consequences) of "danger" is clearly much, much different than ours.

Edited December 30, 2023 by regex

[PDCWolf]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:52 PM, Vl3d said:

Of course probes should come before crew. Same for SRBs.
In a normal universe, in which the devs actually listened to the players and the N modders that came before (excluding @Nertea, for he is the Destroyer of Fun), progression would be something like this

Whilst I agree that probes and SRBs should be first, the progression there seems excessively linear. I'd much prefer a bigger chance at variety, as almost every path should be a valid path forward, instead of the linear + optional system we have now. This highlights how badly part, fuel, and tech variety the game needs.

On 12/29/2023 at 2:52 PM, Vl3d said:

PS: Why, oh why do people not understand that the point of Tier 1 for veterans is not to land on Tylo with the first node parts, but to actually go through the historic progression of space flight and have fun around Kerbin? Just like a beginner would.

No reason to try and rule over how people should play the game. If I'm given a set of parts capable of taking me to Tylo, and I want to challenge myself to do it, then there should be nothing but my own skill stopping me. If anything that outlines that experienced players have gone for what's now gonna be 11 months without getting at least a bone thrown at them. That is the problem, not the other way.

1 minute ago, regex said:

On the whole manned vs. probe argument, I don't actually care one way or the other but I don't think Kerbals should be held down by humanity's path forward. They're overly-enthusiastic aliens who started their orbital program with methalox engines and their entire concept (and view of the consequences) of "danger" is clearly much, much different than ours.

The problem I see here is this conflicts with the first game, where you start with SRBs. Also how they discovered methane refinement before the very natural charcoal+sulfur+potassium nitrate for black powder rockets is beyond any sort of logical explanation. At some point all the gameplay vs common sense (not even realism) concessions become unintuitive and counterproductive. Now not only does veteran knowledge from KSP1 become useless, but basic real world science gets thrown out the window, and not even for a case as strong as the smaller planets have.

[regex]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

The problem I see here is this conflicts with the first game

I don't care at all about the first game or parity with it. I'm playing KSP2 now.