Atmospheric Sniffer Changes

[Scarecrow71]

In my humble estimation, one of the following 2 things needs to happen with the atmospheric sniffer science gadget:

1. Shorten the amount of time it takes to perform the science experiment; OR
2. Allow for its use on the ground.

Currently, it takes 2 minutes to run the experiment, which, unless you are flying planes, is a really long time.  Launching a craft with a TWR anywhere in excess of 1.5 means you won't get the science on the way up, and there is no guarantee you'll come back down in the same biome to finish the experiment.  Oh, and descent?  Good luck with that taking more than 2 minutes, unless you are in Eve's pea-soup atmosphere.

What I really don't understand is why this cannot be used when you are on the ground/landed.  You are still in the atmosphere, are you not?  There is still air all around you when you are on the ground, so why can't this thing be used then?

As it stands, the gadget is - again, in my own estimation - nearly useless.  It needs to be changed, preferably to make it usable on the ground.

[Biggen]

59 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

In my humble estimation, one of the following 2 things needs to happen with the atmospheric sniffer science gadget:

1. Shorten the amount of time it takes to perform the science experiment; OR
2. Allow for its use on the ground.

Currently, it takes 2 minutes to run the experiment, which, unless you are flying planes, is a really long time.  Launching a craft with a TWR anywhere in excess of 1.5 means you won't get the science on the way up, and there is no guarantee you'll come back down in the same biome to finish the experiment.  Oh, and descent?  Good luck with that taking more than 2 minutes, unless you are in Eve's pea-soup atmosphere.

What I really don't understand is why this cannot be used when you are on the ground/landed.  You are still in the atmosphere, are you not?  There is still air all around you when you are on the ground, so why can't this thing be used then?

As it stands, the gadget is - again, in my own estimation - nearly useless.  It needs to be changed, preferably to make it usable on the ground.

I'm fine with the amount of time it takes since it's perfectly usable with planes/drones.  But it definitely should be able to be used on the ground landed or splashed.  No reason for it not to be.

[magnemoe]

I found the best way to use it is to enter the atmosphere from orbit, on Duna that is 49 km, Eve 89 and do an orbit inside it. As you can charge it over common terrain, pause on 2-3 seconds left and activate on small areas like shallow you will get it all in one orbit if you overfly biome. 
Not saying the time should be decreased to 1 minute. 

Edited February 28 by magnemoe

[kdaviper]

Another option is to have a vehicle use parachutes. But I agree maybe it would be best to have them biome specific but not situation specific.

[steveman0]

It is precisely designed to encourage you to build a craft designed to perform the science. Parachutes, a plane, or a shallow suborbital dip on a rocket. Allowing you to use it on the ground would eliminate a substantial design challenge around using it (and compromise the precious science result with those nasty dirt particles!)

That said, the science value maybe should maybe be a bit higher with that in mind since it is more challenging to use.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I think it needs more applications... using it non the ground is not unrealistic. Atmospheric density is different st ground level than near the Karman line.

 

The experiment will "pause" allowing the same instrument to resume when similiar conditions are met (re enter the biome) so even though it is suspended another dip at the right altitude or pass over the correct biome & it will resume.

 

I love the 2 minute time challenge and think it's part of the engineering scope of game. Design & implementation based on real world factors & tech constraints.

 

I think you should be able to gather valuable data with the sniffer while in a wider range of biomes.

 

Got thay reading under the ocean? Now send the dunk-it to get more advanced analysts.

[Scarecrow71]

On 3/4/2024 at 1:27 PM, steveman0 said:

a plane

I love how people continue to make the argument for planes in a game called Kerbal SPACE Program.  I am not interested in building planes.  Heck, I can't build planes.  So should I just not have access to or use the part because I can't stay in the atmosphere for a ridiculous 2 minutes during launch?  Or because I can't use it on the ground...while I'm in the atmosphere?

2 minutes is far too long for this experiment.  In space, 2 minutes is nothing.  In the atmosphere, it may as well be a year and change.

[steveman0]

Planes are optional and even then only on two bodies. The orbital techniques you'd learn to use for Jool or Eve can apply equally well to Kerbin or Laythe. So if you prefer building a rocket... just build a rocket for this science collection. The fact you haven't thought of this is a very good demonstration why this science exists: it gives you an interesting challenge that you wouldn't have thought to pursue if it wasn't for the objective it provided.

Edited March 6 by steveman0

[Biggen]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I love how people continue to make the argument for planes in a game called Kerbal SPACE Program.  I am not interested in building planes.  Heck, I can't build planes.  So should I just not have access to or use the part because I can't stay in the atmosphere for a ridiculous 2 minutes during launch?  Or because I can't use it on the ground...while I'm in the atmosphere?

2 minutes is far too long for this experiment.  In space, 2 minutes is nothing.  In the atmosphere, it may as well be a year and change.

What about a parachute?

[Scarecrow71]

3 hours ago, Biggen said:

What about a parachute?

Well, if you open a parachute going faster than 500 m/s it rips off and then you crash.  By the time you open the chute, you hit the ground before the 2 minutes is up.  At least, that's been my experience.

I still haven't heard a good enough argument as to why it can't be used on the ground.  You are still in an atmosphere.  Heck, you are at 1 atmosphere of pressure on the ground.  So why it's unusable unless you are in flight of some kind is ridiculous.

[steveman0]

It's already been said. Using it on the ground trivializes the challenge and makes it just another environmental survey by a different name.

Also, parachutes can be set to open at higher altitudes. It's entirely possible to get several minutes under canopy.

[Superfluous J]

I think they should not be biome specific. That would fix most of the issues getting your reports. Then, you just have to be in the air for 2 minutes (and not even 2 consecutive minutes) to get the analysis.

It's one of the few experiments that require planning the mission around a restriction. Please don't convince them to change it.

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I think they should not be biome specific. That would fix most of the issues getting your reports. Then, you just have to be in the air for 2 minutes (and not even 2 consecutive minutes) to get the analysis.

It's one of the few experiments that require planning the mission around a restriction. Please don't convince them to change it.

This would be an major nerf. The sniffer has the benefit of not needing landings, just go a bit into the atmosphere. This was very productive on Eve earning me 5*600 transmitted science and much more then I return samples. 
My Jool mission has an specialized probe for dipping into Jool atmosphere 

Also how do people stay in atmosphere less than 2 minutes. Only place I can think if is Duna if you did an aggressive braking burn, say 500 m/s, this will increase accuracy a lot but solution is to do one pass at 49 km attitude. 

Now I find the orbital lab more frustrating to use at least on Duna since its very spotty with biomes and the lab uses many seconds to activate so if often not ready then you leave biome and has to restart it again. 
Yes I know the unmanned version is faster to activate but far from unlocking it. 

[Scarecrow71]

On 3/6/2024 at 5:44 PM, Superfluous J said:

It's one of the few experiments that require planning the mission around a restriction. Please don't convince them to change it.

My issue isn't that there is a restriction.  My issue is that it's too restrictive.  Sorry, but not all of us are adept or even capable of designing airplanes.  I've got 1000+ hours in KSP1, and more than 200 in KSP2, and I can't build a craft to fly in the atmosphere for 2 minutes.  Now go tell a new player to do that.

Make it less restrictive.  The amount of time it takes is too long.

[steveman0]

As has been said multiple times, none of the atmospheric collections require an airplane. Every single one can be done with a simple orbiter probe like the one I used for Jool: 

 

[Scarecrow71]

15 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

As has been said multiple times, none of the atmospheric collections require an airplane. Every single one can be done with a simple orbiter probe like the one I used for Jool

And as I've said multiple times, nobody has given me a good reason why it can't be used on Kerbin on the ground when you are still, technically, in the atmosphere.  At 1 atmosphere of pressure, no less.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And as I've said multiple times, nobody has given me a good reason why it can't be used on Kerbin on the ground when you are still, technically, in the atmosphere.  At 1 atmosphere of pressure, no less.

Because then it goes from an interesting gameplay challenge to a bonus for going to Duna instead of Dres.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

Good is often a qualifier that is subjective in nature.  Many here view the reasons given as *good* 

I have already saw a couple "good reasons" to keep it restrictive. 

IMO making it less restrictive would further diminish the difficulty / learning curve of the game.

Perhaps a very good reason would be to help encourage you to get better at atmospheric flight designs.

There are locations outside of kerbin that allow for atmospheric flight. This seems a compelling reason to have some focus on planes in a space game.

 

 

[Scarecrow71]

1 minute ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Perhaps a very good reason would be to help encourage you to get better at atmospheric flight designs.

I'll say it again:  Kerbal SPACE Program.  Not Kerbal Plane Program.  Not Kerbal Atmospheric Flight Program.  Kerbal SPACE Program.  I shouldn't have to be forced into doing something in a space game that doesn't involve space.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I can repeat myself too....

Laythe has an atmosphere capable of flight. There are other games out there without cute little green men and spaceplanes. These games lack complex science requiring planning around.

The fact that they made the Sniffer pause and restart when entering biomes was the lifting of restriction for players like you.
A space faring probe in low orbit is capable of gathering the science after a couple passes.

I personally feel adding varying times to experiments was one of the few things they nailed. The idea of complex science being done with nothing more than instantaneous readings was somewhat silly from the first. 
I am hoping that there will be some experiments in late game that take hours, days or even longer.

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Kerbal SPACE Program.  Not Kerbal Plane Program.

It's also not Kerbal SCIENCE program, or Kerbal LANDING program, or Kerbal COLONY program. So they should remove Science and landing gear, and stop working on colonies?

From your argument, you shouldn't be using the atmospheric sniffer anyway because you can't use it in SPACE.

[magnemoe]

8 hours ago, steveman0 said:

As has been said multiple times, none of the atmospheric collections require an airplane. Every single one can be done with a simple orbiter probe like the one I used for Jool: 

 

Agree, I used one of my two Eve probe landers at 89 km attitude to get all the sniffer recordings, on Duna I used the mothership and lander at 49 km. 
For Jool I have an specialist probe for sampling Jool atmosphere, a bit like your but 1.25 m and a radiation sensor and a cargo bay with an rover seat for a kerbal to recover science. 
Probably also an crew experience flying at Jool  
Will probably use the second on Laythe as I have two. Also has two Laythe jet powered drones but they don't have rover seats or docking ports, 

[steveman0]

6 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'll say it again:  Kerbal SPACE Program.  Not Kerbal Plane Program.  Not Kerbal Atmospheric Flight Program.  Kerbal SPACE Program.  I shouldn't have to be forced into doing something in a space game that doesn't involve space.

An orbiter probe that flies just small dips into the atmosphere to collect the samples is great practice in space flight experience. It teachs valuable lessons in the degree of aerobraking by atmosphere depth and strategies to manipulate your orbit efficiently with aerobraking support. These lessons could be useful in other space flight missions even where atmospheric sample collection is not required.