Is KSP2 going to offer any challenge to experienced KSP1 players?

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

Going from memory of the many interviews, around the EA launch of KSP2, it was said KSP2 is going to aimed at introducing new and/or younger players to KSP, and at the same time it's going to offer a challenge (or at minimum the same level of gameplay depth/difficulty) to experienced KSP1 players.

Given that we were promised this dual nature of KSP2 that was supposed to satisfy both experienced and new players without one experience compromising the other, I surely was in the camp to agree to have development resources being allocated to make the game more accessible.

Then it was talked how Science mode is going to be this new approach, unique to KSP2, focusing on exploration as opposed to spamming science at the launch-pad, with lessons learned from KSP1 baked in, and how Career mode will have no funds like in KSP1, because again, resource gathering and exploration are the new means of progression.

Science mode came and it has 9 parts instead of 14 in KSP1, and much of the gameplay mechanics are very familiar to KSP1 (some simplified), so not a lot to go by for people who were expecting this revolution compared to KSP1's science mode.

Then it was said that the Colonies update comes sooner than Science Update.

Being given the Science update was underwhelming for some, and that Colonies, the next milestone, is coming sooner then Science, should we expect going forward that all milestones are going to be simplified from the point of view of an experienced KSP1 player looking for a challenge?

 

[SomeRandomGuy]

My guess is that because this colonies update will have no resources, it will be akin to a sandbox mode for colonies.   So no, no challenge there really for anyone, much less an experienced ksp1 player.   Not that this says much about the future, but it seems clear the focus of the game, during these very early years of development, is weighted toward aesthetics and new players. 

[The Aziz]

24 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Then it was talked how Science mode is going to be this new approach, unique to KSP2, focusing on exploration as opposed to spamming science at the launch-pad, with lessons learned from KSP1 baked in, and how Career mode will have no funds like in KSP1, because again, resource gathering and exploration are the new means of progression.

Science mode came and it has 9 parts instead of 14 in KSP1, and much of the gameplay mechanics are very familiar to KSP1 (some simplified)

Which happened, you can't just spam a ton of tiny boxes on the side of a craft on the launchpad and get through half of the tech tree. There's less experiments (for now at least) but they're more localized, and, you know, putting a radiation sensor on tiny ion probe ain't gonna work anymore. Now you're thinking how and where to put a thing on a craft for it to work. Small, efficient landers ain't gonna cut it now with all the bulky stuff you have to carry around. That's your first challenge. The only simplification is One Button to turn them on all.

Another, upcoming, is scouting and setting up a base, possibly in unfriendly environment - but a necessity because of proximity to valuables under ground. Then there's the whole matter of starting off in another system with almost nothing, except what you'll bring with you, there'll be no KSC to boost your game.

Now lemme ask this: what kind of challenge are you expecting? I've noticed some people who appear disappointed with what they got, rarely ever say what improvements to existing content they would like to see. So what is there, that can be made more challenging, while still being achievable for everyone?

[Biggen]

Right now the challenge is playing around all the bugs. No way a person who has never played KSP 1 could play KSP2. You have to have so much knowledge of stuff right now just to be successful.

[Skorj]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Now lemme ask this: what kind of challenge are you expecting? I've noticed some people who appear disappointed with what they got, rarely ever say what improvements to existing content they would like to see. So what is there, that can be made more challenging, while still being achievable for everyone?

I think quite a few people have been specific about a desire for resource constraints done better than KSP1s random mission system.  Science mode isn't challenging on the build side because there are no constraints beyond bugs and low performance.  KSP1 science mode was the same way: fine for a gentle introduction to astrophysics, but barely an actual game. 

For my part, I want to see funds sharply constrain launches from Kerbin, but be only a minor concern for launches from anywhere else, where the constraint is replaced by a limited ability to gather resources locally, which in turn is replaced as a constraint in the endgame where you need resources from Even and Tylo to build and fuel the insterstellar ship.  Resource constraints that themselves give a sense of progression as you eliminate each constraint in turn through developing skill at the game.  Pretty much the standard game design of logistics/factory games, because it works well and is very satisfying.

That's the improvement I'd like to see: apply proven game design concepts from adjacent genres to replace career mode.

Edited March 15 by Skorj

[Kerbart]

Intentionally? Not really. Is it harder? Well, when you're used to things working they way they are supposed to, then most definitely.

Exploration mode is harder in the sense that it really forces you to leave the Kerbin system. If a trip to Jool is your daily KSP1 routine then it's not that much harder. Sadly, the improvement over Career is mainly cutting down the reward points. Yes, we need go and on land on Duna. Not because the game makes you want to go there, but simply because it forces you to do so.

Basically it's a two-circle Venn Diagram.

Reasons it's harder

• Bugs
• Missions with further destinations required to progress tech tree

Reasons it could be harder but it's not

• Inclined orbits
• Axial tilt
• Persistent rotation
• Life support
• Complex resources

The latter is of course something the community looks forward to. "To build part X you need resource Y, only available on planet Z." But the community has done a lot of projecting on what they want the game to be, and what's been delivered so far has been streamlined (the word "dumbed down" sounds so negative), so I'm not going to expect too much out of it.

[The Aziz]

16 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

it really forces you to leave the Kerbin system. If a trip to Jool is your daily KSP1 routine then it's not that much harder. Sadly, the improvement over Career is mainly cutting down the reward points. Yes, we need go and on land on Duna. Not because the game makes you want to go there, but simply because it forces you to do so.

Basically it's a two-circle Venn Diagram.

Reasons it's harder

• Bugs
• Missions with further destinations required to progress tech tree

Is it though? It tells you there's something interesting out there you may want to check out, and doing so will give you a reward - but you're free to ignore it for as long as you like and explore the system on your own, and still gather science with instruments you bring with you.

People wanted story, lore in Kerbal universe, now that they've got it, and it follows a natural progression, it's bad all of a sudden? It's no different from any other open world story driven games.

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Being given the Science update was underwhelming for some, and that Colonies, the next milestone, is coming sooner then Science, should we expect going forward that all milestones are going to be simplified from the point of view of an experienced KSP1 player looking for a challenge?

Bolded for emphasis.

Consider for a moment that the average KSP1 player never leaves Kerbin's SOI.  I read somewhere once that a whopping 70%+ of players have never gone any farther than Minmus, and another 10% or so have only ever sent probes into Kerbol orbit.  Those numbers could be wrong, and I could be remembering them incorrectly.  But that's 80% of the KSP1 player base (assuming the numbers are right) who have never had a probe, lander, rover, etc., land on a celestial body outside of Kerbin's SOI.

Also consider for a moment that there are some KSP1 players who have landed on Duna, or Dres, or Moho...but who have never landed a Kerbal on Eve.  Or who have sent probes to Jool, but have never landed on any of its moons.  Or who have never even been to Jool.  Or Eeloo, due to its distance and inclination.  Even with being able to spam science points in KSP1, and being able to unlock the entire tech tree without ever leaving Kerbin's SOI, some experienced KSP1 players have never been to the outer planets (or landed on one of the inner ones).  I can accurately state this, because I'm one of them.  In KSP1, I have never landed a Kerbal on Eve, I've never even attempted to launch a landed probe from Eve, and I had never been to Jool (although I have been to Eeloo).

So you want to talk about a challenge to experienced KSP1 players?  For starters, you can't just spam science points in Kerbin's SOI any more, so now you have to go farther than Minmus if you want to unlock the entire tech tree (or even just get better parts).  Sure, there's some local missions you can get some science points out of.  But you are never going to even sniff Tier IV until you've gone interplanetary and back.  And for those KSP1 players who never left the local SOI, that's going to be a challenge.

Take myself, for instance.  I mentioned above how I've never even been to Jool in KSP1.  In KSP2, I've not only been to Jool, but I've gotten a probe in orbit AND I've landed on and returned from Pol.  Things I've never done in KSP1.  And I can tell you that it was certainly a challenge.

I guess that an answer to your question lies in what someone really thinks a challenge is.  Are experienced players going to have an easier time of things in KSP2 than new players?  You bet your booties.  And that's because they already understand builds, launch windows, gravity turns, transfers, and all the good things that come from having played the previous game.  They already get the physics part of it, which is a pretty decent learning curve.  But that doesn't mean that there aren't challenges for experienced players.  It just depends on what they did in KSP1, and what they expect out of KSP2.

[Kerbart]

2 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Is it though? It tells you there's something interesting out there you may want to check out, and doing so will give you a reward - but you're free to ignore it for as long as you like and explore the system on your own, and still gather science with instruments you bring with you.

People wanted story, lore in Kerbal universe, now that they've got it, and it follows a natural progression, it's bad all of a sudden? It's no different from any other open world story driven games.

You make a good point, and I did not think my words through enough.

It's not bad that the game forces the player to explore. There's a lot to explore that players are simply unaware of if all they do is land on the Mun equator. That part I'm very happy about.

What's bad—is the very "in yer face" mechanics that are applied. "Land near the monument and get a boatload of science points as a reward." It's contracts, with a different sauce poured on top. Maybe it's just that with only one roadmap milestone unlocked (we're a mere 13 months in the EA release after all) the building blocks are missing to do something more elaborate. But I was hoping for things that require more action from the player. And maybe that'll be done in the future.

The monument could have been a "regular" arc with some cracks and the player has to fly into it to uncover it. Or there's a buried artifact, TMA-1 style, that needs a nearby colony to get uncovered, and once exposed to sunlight, it will fire off a signal to the outer planets we have to follow.

We wanted story, we got story. And that part is great. What bugs me is that the level of interaction feels like the Seinfeld guy, sitting in his car, honking at women, because he ran out of ideas on how else to get their attention. Learning clues about Kerbal Lore through 12 page mission reports is better than no lore, but is it truly a journey of discovery? Not as much as I think it can be.

[Ultimate Steve]

I'm hoping for interstellar to offer some new worlds with new navigational, piloting, and design challenges. Eve used to be the final boss of KSP, with Eve, Tylo, and Moho perfectly representing the design, piloting, and navigation triad, but after enough times going there and back it kinda doesn't feel that challenging any more. I forget what it was called, but I'm looking forwards to that new super Tylo they have teased, and that binary system.

I am a little bit worried that all the sci-fi technology they are going to add may remove a lot of what would have been a challenge, but inevitably I'll fall back into going for the low mass records and it won't be mass optimal to use any of the super heavy advanced engines. The grand tour record in KSP 1 is under 8 tons at this point, and there's been talk of pushing it low enough that we might not even need the Rapier any more.

Speaking of which, when KSP 2 gets stable and polished enough for the low mass leaderboards to take off, the meta is going to be interesting. The ion engine was nerfed a LOT in KSP 2, you can't really use it to land on most of the small bodies like you could in KSP 1. Without a high tech lightweight replacement, we're going to see a lot of ultralight liquid fuel craft with opportunities for per body customization (although without EVA construction, this is docking port constrained), which should hopefully lead to a more interesting design than "Use the same ion lander for everything except Duna, Laythe, Tylo, and Eve."

[Spicat]

To be honest, most of the harder challenges were always expected to come with the features that are not yet in the game, especially interstellar, at least with the way Nate mentioned it for harder challenges:

 

[Dakota]

Chatted with Design Director Shana Markham about this thread and this was her response:

Quote

I think it's a fair take that KSP2's For Science update didn't bring much in the way of new challenges for KSP1 experts. If you've seen it all, done it all, and you know all of the invisible bits and bobs, then the thing that you need are either new capabilities or new limitations. That's why the resource system looks very attractive, because it's a build limitation that also has an implicit demand to explore, and it's easy to see how other new capabilities and systems key into it.

That's a thing you can see in many games as a service and sequels, where you add new capabilies and challenges over time.

We definitely paid a lot of attention to where players were stopped in their progression, and how KSP1's design decisions enabled that behavior. We've said it and will keep saying it that much of our work in helping players is in reviewing and shining lights on more invisible systems and in showing players what they are capable of doing. I don't think we hit the mark on challenging, and I still think there's more to go in introducing players to what's possible. Missions is one our primary ways to do that (experiments is mostly in passively encouraging exploration), and I'm excited to see our missions and tutorials team continue.

There's a lot of ways a player can seek a challenge, but if you're the sort that's challenged by limitation, there are difficulty settings to adjust mission and/or experiment science payouts. But if you're the person that has done everything under Kerbol, I think your desires for challenge are going to be served by having something new, and that's our current work.

 

[Flush Foot]

8 hours ago, Biggen said:

Right now the challenge is playing around all the bugs

I think you mean "the opportunity is playing around all the bugs"... Last night, I took off from Gilly and realized that I was glitched into 'landed state' thereafter... so I promptly escaped Gilly's SOI and pillaged as many of Eve's biomes as I could reasonably hit be bothered to time warp to find myself over and got loads of juicy, juicy "Eve-surface" science 

[magnemoe]

8 hours ago, Skorj said:

I think quite a few people have been specific about a desire for resource constraints done better than KSP1s random mission system.  Science mode isn't challenging on the build side because there are no constraints beyond bugs and low performance.  KSP1 science mode was the same way: fine for a gentle introduction to astrophysics, but barely an actual game. 

For my part, I want to see funds sharply constrain launches from Kerbin, but be only a minor concern for launches from anywhere else, where the constraint is replaced by a limited ability to gather resources locally, which in turn is replaced as a constraint in the endgame where you need resources from Even and Tylo to build and fuel the insterstellar ship.  Resource constraints that themselves give a sense of progression as you eliminate each constraint in turn through developing skill at the game.  Pretty much the standard game design of logistics/factory games, because it works well and is very satisfying.

That's the improvement I'd like to see: apply proven game design concepts from adjacent genres to replace career mode.

Now after unlocking the tech tree in KSP 1 I was flooding in funds leveling up my kerbals too 3 while bringing tourist on the Mun, out of Kerbin SOI, to Minmus to refuel and repeat. 
Then moving ore from Ike to Duna became the next cash cow. Main issue was how kerbals became more expensive who more you bought who made no sense. Had made more sense with salary and higher ranking ones having higher salaries and being many years in space added extra cost. Who encourage crew rotation so do this while expanding. I say this would make sense for colonies to bring people back to Kerbin and other main productions sites. 

My Minmus colony in KSP 1 using extraplanetary launchpad mod.

From top left, an standard base with greenhouse, lab an a low capacity part production. Main part production facility, manufacturing and housing. Housing greenhouses and labs. Minmus utility lander, main mining and fuel production, pad for making small crafts, nuclear reactor and resource storage. 

[The Aziz]

18 hours ago, magnemoe said:

extraplanetary launchpad mod.

That's dedication.

I installed it once, hoping to get into some basic manufacturing of spacecraft. Then I found a 40 pages long user manual, dozen of large diagrams inside, multistep production tree, long paragraphs full of numbers, and I just gave up.

[magnemoe]

24 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

That's dedication.

I installed it once, hoping to get into some basic manufacturing of spacecraft. Then I found a 40 pages long user manual, dozen of large diagrams inside, multistep production tree, long paragraphs full of numbers, and I just gave up.

Basic was not that hard. Mine ore, melt to metal and then make rocket parts. The hard part was the survey station and stakes who you only needed more than one of if you wanted to orient and detail place an module who I did not bother with. I just used one pole, most stuff I made was round or had wheels.  You could also use one of the building / launch pads. I added an ramp to mine as I used it make small stuff who an kerbal with an rover picked up. As its construction time and I mostly build huge interplanetary ships it was nice to make spare parts on the side. Think that pad is actually the orbital construction plate, I used in on ground. 

19 hours ago, Flush Foot said:

I think you mean "the opportunity is playing around all the bugs"... Last night, I took off from Gilly and realized that I was glitched into 'landed state' thereafter... so I promptly escaped Gilly's SOI and pillaged as many of Eve's biomes as I could reasonably hit be bothered to time warp to find myself over and got loads of juicy, juicy "Eve-surface" science 

How? don't you heat up entering the atmosphere then in landing state? 

[Flush Foot]

7 hours ago, magnemoe said:

How? don't you heat up entering the atmosphere then in landing state?

Nope! Game knows I am not landed (grabber-arm doesn’t work) but as far as the Science-Jr-Jr and Radiation-survey experiments were concerned, I was landed in whatever biome I was orbiting 10,000km above and so got a fair number of Eve Surface experiments while safely avoiding Eve’s punishing atmosphere.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Flush Foot said:

Nope! Game knows I am not landed (grabber-arm doesn’t work) but as far as the Science-Jr-Jr and Radiation-survey experiments were concerned, I was landed in whatever biome I was orbiting 10,000km above and so got a fair number of Eve Surface experiments while safely avoiding Eve’s punishing atmosphere.

Nice, did not think of that one.  Think the grabber arm need to reach ground, so placing it to high will not work.
Same with kerbals you can not do surface samples on an wing. Well you could and get aircraft paint  
The others yes, especially the radiation one is nice as its heavy and give lots of science. 

[Flush Foot]

@magnemoe it shouldn't work, but if the game is going to bug out and falsely claim I am landed (and manually navigating from Gilly's micro-SOI out to Eve's is quite trivial), then why not profit handsomely while the getting's good?

[Meecrob]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:25 AM, The Aziz said:

while still being achievable for everyone?

Where did you come up with this requirement? By your logic, I haven't done a crewed return from Eve, so take it out of the game. Its not achievable for everyone.

 

On 3/15/2024 at 2:50 PM, Dakota said:

That's a thing you can see in many games as a service and sequels, where you add new capabilies and challenges over time.

Please tell me this is some sort of joke? You want to emulate the live service model that is going down in flames as we speak? These are tactics to make a short game seem longer. You seem to not realize that veteran players have multiple thousands of hours pf playtime. We can already figure out stuff to do. Did you realize you chased away all the veterans and now you are stuck with casual players? You can get them back if you stop doing absolute cringe meme stuff and kapybaras. This game is going to be around for a decade if its made properly. You cannot have memes in it.

You also just accidentally said you are purposefully spacing releases out to string us along.

The community is going to be liquided when they catch on to this. Trust me, you should reconsider.

[kdaviper]

32 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

please tell me this is some sort of joke? You want to emulate the live service model that is going down in flames as we speak? These are tactics to make a short game seem longer. You seem to not realize that veteran players have multiple thousands of hours pf playtime. We can already figure out stuff to do. Did you realize you chased away all the veterans and now you are stuck with casual players? You can get them back if you stop doing absolute cringe meme stuff and kapybaras. This game is going to be around for a decade if its made properly. You cannot have memes in it.

You also just accidentally said you are purposefully spacing releases out to string us along.

The community is going to be liquided when they catch on to this. Trust me, you should reconsider.

Please elaborate what you mean. Where do you see anything about purposefully spacing out releases? 

 

[Meecrob]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:50 PM, Dakota said:

That's a thing you can see in many games as a service and sequels, where you add new capabilies and challenges over time.

 

[Scarecrow71]

57 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

You also just accidentally said you are purposefully spacing releases out to string us along.

Shana said that, not Dakota.  And I fail to see how this is somehow telling us the company is intentionally spacing releases or stringing us along.

[magnemoe]

16 hours ago, Flush Foot said:

@magnemoe it shouldn't work, but if the game is going to bug out and falsely claim I am landed (and manually navigating from Gilly's micro-SOI out to Eve's is quite trivial), then why not profit handsomely while the getting's good?

I understand how it work, environment and radiation just require the landed flag to be true. And yes I would abuse that to, radiation measurement is over 3000 science if I remember correctly and you have 4 easy biomes, foothill, ocean. shallow and impact zone. 
Environmental is 1000 science. so over 16000 science. 
Gilly can wait, all that science is much better. 

18 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Shana said that, not Dakota.  And I fail to see how this is somehow telling us the company is intentionally spacing releases or stringing us along.

Agree, it makes no sense to slow down releases for KSP 2 more stuff==better game, yes they also has to kill bugs, game is very buggy. 

For an live service game you might want to meter out releases to keep players playing, if you work on an expansion you want to add minor stuff like dungeons to keep players active until the big update, you don't want to go an year with no updates.  

Edited March 17 by magnemoe

[The Aziz]

2 hours ago, Meecrob said:

By your logic, I haven't done a crewed return from Eve, so take it out of the game. Its not achievable for everyone.

That's not a new challenge. It's very much a 10 year old challenge, which the new game didn't help overcome.

2 hours ago, Meecrob said:

Did you realize you chased away all the veterans and now you are stuck with casual players?

[citation needed]

2 hours ago, Meecrob said:

You can get them back if you stop doing absolute cringe meme stuff and kapybaras. This game is going to be around for a decade if its made properly. You cannot have memes in it.

Sure it has to be serious, gray and dark like your average horror movie from 1950s to be successful, mhm. No fun allowed.