Hopes For Colony Building (GIVE OPINIONS)

[kdaviper]

10 hours ago, Icegrx said:

I don’t even think the dev team knows the goal at this point. 
 

all we have been teased with are large station like colonies. 
 

seems the goal to me, is to make large stations while getting around the part count problem. 

I think the purpose is to replace ksp1-style surface bases with physics-less surface bases that don't suffer the same drawbacks bases as ksp1 

[Icegrx]

49 minutes ago, kdaviper said:

I think the purpose is to replace ksp1-style surface bases with physics-less surface bases that don't suffer the same drawbacks bases as ksp1 

None of the teasers have shown any type of ground construction or ground based parts

[kdaviper]

4 minutes ago, Icegrx said:

None of the teasers have shown any type of ground construction or ground based parts

None of the teasers have but the Dev diary with nertea about thermals showed some sketches and concepts for ground based colonies

[Superfluous J]

51 minutes ago, Icegrx said:

None of the teasers have shown any type of ground construction or ground based parts

I'm not down with my terminology but this seems to tease a ground base.

https://kerbal-space-program-2.fandom.com/wiki/Colonies?file=Ksp_2_yes_you_can_make_colonies.jpg

[Spicat]

37 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I'm not down with my terminology but this seems to tease a ground base.

https://kerbal-space-program-2.fandom.com/wiki/Colonies?file=Ksp_2_yes_you_can_make_colonies.jpg

Not a lot of people seem aware of prelaunch info, The Aziz made a topic back then. It's very good to summarize all of this:

 

Edited March 30 by Spicat

[Icegrx]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I'm not down with my terminology but this seems to tease a ground base.

https://kerbal-space-program-2.fandom.com/wiki/Colonies?file=Ksp_2_yes_you_can_make_colonies.jpg

I’m not down with having to search out obscure YouTube interviews to get information about features. 
 

sigh… thank you for this. Guess I gotta watch the interview 

[allanp11]

6 hours ago, Spicat said:

Not a lot of people seem aware of prelaunch info, The Aziz made a topic back then. It's very good to summarize all of this:

 

I do feel a bit lost when it comes to what their plans are, but also, things can change over years of time given player feedback, as well as their own experience playing the game.

[allanp11]

21 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Why play ANY game? Why do ANYTHING except the bare minimum to keep ourselves alive?

Well that was my point. "Because it's fun" and "because we can" can be valid reasons to do something (while also acknowledging the valid reasons to not do something of course!). I was wondering if those were the only reasons there will be to build colonies or will there be something more to it.

Having now seen some of the images and concept art posted online, it feels very likely that these fairly large constructions will serve some purpose other than "because it's fun to build".  

If they are coming before recourse gathering, that might seem pointless as a player, but it might make more sense from the perspective of developing the game for reasons not known to us, so I'm not too concerned about that. Colonies might indeed be pointless when first released but if they become useful later on, well okay, I can be patient, but I do think there would need to be some communication to that effect to prevent disappointment. 

But what if it's more than resource gathering? What if there's a whole new place-able VAB and launch/landing pad? That seems to feel more in scale with some of the concept art and images posted. And it would help with building much bigger interstellar craft, especially if there's an orbital VAB where you build your craft while already in orbit. I mean, this kinda looks like a VAB......

https://kerbal-space-program-2.fandom.com/wiki/Colonies?file=Ksp_2_yes_you_can_make_colonies.jpg

......and I have heard there's a single rocket engine coming for interstellar travel that wouldn't even fit in the regular VAB. Buuuuuuuut, I'm not sure I like the sound of this. Being able to build a VAB anywhere you like throws off the balance of the whole game. 

Right now, if we want to sent three kerbals to Eve and back, we have to carefully design, test, redesign, test again until we get a craft that is capable of doing that. But if we can build a VAB on Eve, is that challenge there anymore? How do they balance the ability to do that so that it's not too OP? Maybe it's a unlock in tier 5 of the tech tree.

I also don't imagine that you would build a VAB inside the regular VAB and launch it into space, so it might have to be built in sections and assembled on site. Sooooo many questions, what makes a VAB a VAB? Is it the "god" mode tools that we have to build stuff, or  the fact that parts just appear out of thin air with no recourses required, maybe there's a VAB module that allows the "god" mode building, then when placed within a player built structure, the whole structure becomes active/usable as a VAB, enabling much bigger and even orbital VABs to be built. The VAB would then have to be supplied with recourses, and these resources even have to be processed and made from ores (such as metal from iron ore, uranium from uranium ore, etc) requiring a slew of other buildings.  Then when you are in the VAB building a ship, each part would then have a resource cost associated with it, so a SWERVE engine requires 7 purified uranium, 20 titanium, 5 copper or something like that. Then only if the VAB has been supplied with enough of those recourse can you build it.  

Edited March 30 by allanp11
More waffle

[Presto200]

I think you brought up a good point about missions and colonies. Some missions will be easier with colonies on certain celestial bodies where they can launch wherever. I know they plan to add more missions with each major update. Maybe they will have different missions based on which celestial body you launch from? That’s the only way I can see that become fair.

[Flush Foot]

6 hours ago, allanp11 said:

But if we can build a VAB on Eve, is that challenge there anymore? How do they balance the ability to do that so that it's not too OP?

In order to have a VAB ‘on Eve’, player had to first land “enough” parts (and eventually resources) on Eve to make the VAB (so there’s that), but unless I am mistaken, Kerbals won’t just automagically teleport between VABs; they have to ‘live’ at the colony the craft is launching from, so to VAB-build on Eve a crewed ascent vehicle, you needed to first bring the VAB (more or less) and the crew.

[Scarecrow71]

6 hours ago, allanp11 said:

Being able to build a VAB anywhere you like throws off the balance of the whole game. 

I whole-heartedly disagree.  While I admit it would make it far easier to explore the Joolian moons if you built one on, say, Laythe, that doesn't mean balance is thrown off.  You still need to have the resources available to first build the VAB, and then to build craft.  It could be as abstract as "You have shipped resources to [insert colony name]", or it could be as detailed as "You need ore and methane at [insert colony name]".  And that doesn't include crew; just because you have Jeb on Kerbin doesn't mean he transports instantly to Dres.

It also becomes an issue of actually flying to other bodies from those distant VAB locations.  We all know that the phase angle for a Duna transfer from Kerbin is something like 44ish degrees.  Approximately.  But what is the phase angle going from Eve?  Or from Eeloo?  Not to mention you have to account for the inclination of the body you are on relative to the body you want to go to.  And this doesn't even include that you can't transfer from a moon to another planet; you have to go from moon to its parent SOI, then from that parent SOI to either Kerbol or direct to the next planet.  So if you wanted to go from Ike to Eve, it'd be Ike to Duna, then Duna to Eve.

And while we're on the subject of interplanetary transfers from places other than Kerbin, fuel really becomes a big issue.  It's far less expensive to go Kerbin-Eve than it is to go Eeloo Eve.  Or, the Kerbal gods forgive, Jool to Moho.  So you'll want to space those extra-Kerbinular VAB locations throughout the Kerbol system so as to not have to use more fuel than necessary (which still doesn't alleviate the potential need for resource X on Moho needing to end up on your Vall colony).

[allanp11]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I whole-heartedly disagree

Well, you do make a lot of good points. However...

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

You still need to have the resources available to first build the VAB, and then to build craft

Do we? I hope that is true, but the way the current VAB on Kerbin works is that we don't need/use any resources to build anything. That makes sense on the home world of Kerbin but not on new worlds we have just discovered. I also hope you're right about needing resources to build a VAB, and have that be a challenging thing to do, instead of something like "Congratulations, you have unlocked a magically OP VAB on Eve!". My comment about throwing the balance off probably should have been that it could throw the balance off, depending on how it is implemented. I'm just thinking that since colonies is coming before resource gathering, then everything that comes in colonies, including potential buildable VABs and the stuff you build within them won't require any resources. Or maybe that could change when resource gathering comes out?

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It could be as abstract as "You have shipped resources to [insert colony name]", or it could be as detailed as "You need ore and methane at [insert colony name]"

Yup. I am hoping for the VAB to have some kind of buildable storage silos that you build on the outside to hold various different goods, which the player would have to stock up, because you'll need not just the fuel, but literally everything to build whatever you create inside the VAB like titanium, gold, plastic, rubber, etc. Then when building in the VAB, each part has a cost of X amount of one or more different items. Maybe instead of requiring you to have a full stock of everything you need to build a rocket up front, you can design anything you want in the VAB just like you can now, without needing any resources, but in order for it to be taken out of the VAB, for it to be actually built and exist anywhere outside of it, then the VAB must be stocked with all the needed resources and fuel needed to build the ship. So you can load up already saved craft files, or build something huge and then you would see how many resources you need to build it.

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And that doesn't include crew; just because you have Jeb on Kerbin doesn't mean he transports instantly to Dres.

Also very true. I don't think there should be any teleportation of crew or anything else. You can set up autonomous deliveries and such, but everything should be hauled in some way, even if the player doesn't have to do anything once an autonomous delivery route is set up. 

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It also becomes an issue of actually flying to other bodies from those distant VAB locations.  We all know that the phase angle for a Duna transfer from Kerbin is something like 44ish degrees.  Approximately.  But what is the phase angle going from Eve?  Or from Eeloo?  Not to mention you have to account for the inclination of the body you are on relative to the body you want to go to.  And this doesn't even include that you can't transfer from a moon to another planet; you have to go from moon to its parent SOI, then from that parent SOI to either Kerbol or direct to the next planet.  So if you wanted to go from Ike to Eve, it'd be Ike to Duna, then Duna to Eve.

We do have a phase angle diagram for Kerbin to get to other planets. Maybe someone will come up with phase angle diagrams for all the other planets once there is a need for one, or maybe there will be a window planner inside the game itself where you can select any starting location as well as any destination. But yes, that is another good point as it will likely add another layer of challenge, helping to keep things balanced.

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And while we're on the subject of interplanetary transfers from places other than Kerbin, fuel really becomes a big issue.  It's far less expensive to go Kerbin-Eve than it is to go Eeloo Eve.  Or, the Kerbal gods forgive, Jool to Moho.  So you'll want to space those extra-Kerbinular VAB locations throughout the Kerbol system so as to not have to use more fuel than necessary (which still doesn't alleviate the potential need for resource X on Moho needing to end up on your Vall colony).

You know, while I considered that you might have to go interstellar to find certain mid/end game resources, it never occurred to me that not every resource that's in the Kerbol system would be available on every planet within the system, which would indeed necessitate all kinds of interplanetary journeys. 

Edited March 30 by allanp11

[Presto200]

1 hour ago, Flush Foot said:

In order to have a VAB ‘on Eve’, player had to first land “enough” parts (and eventually resources) on Eve to make the VAB (so there’s that), but unless I am mistaken, Kerbals won’t just automagically teleport between VABs; they have to ‘live’ at the colony the craft is launching from, so to VAB-build on Eve a crewed ascent vehicle, you needed to first bring the VAB (more or less) and the crew.

I didn’t think about this. I guess Kerbals will technically be a valuable “resource” in the game too. That is unless you use probes everywhere. 

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I whole-heartedly disagree.  While I admit it would make it far easier to explore the Joolian moons if you built one on, say, Laythe, that doesn't mean balance is thrown off.  You still need to have the resources available to first build the VAB, and then to build craft.  It could be as abstract as "You have shipped resources to [insert colony name]", or it could be as detailed as "You need ore and methane at [insert colony name]".  And that doesn't include crew; just because you have Jeb on Kerbin doesn't mean he transports instantly to Dres.

It also becomes an issue of actually flying to other bodies from those distant VAB locations.  We all know that the phase angle for a Duna transfer from Kerbin is something like 44ish degrees.  Approximately.  But what is the phase angle going from Eve?  Or from Eeloo?  Not to mention you have to account for the inclination of the body you are on relative to the body you want to go to.  And this doesn't even include that you can't transfer from a moon to another planet; you have to go from moon to its parent SOI, then from that parent SOI to either Kerbol or direct to the next planet.  So if you wanted to go from Ike to Eve, it'd be Ike to Duna, then Duna to Eve.

And while we're on the subject of interplanetary transfers from places other than Kerbin, fuel really becomes a big issue.  It's far less expensive to go Kerbin-Eve than it is to go Eeloo Eve.  Or, the Kerbal gods forgive, Jool to Moho.  So you'll want to space those extra-Kerbinular VAB locations throughout the Kerbol system so as to not have to use more fuel than necessary (which still doesn't alleviate the potential need for resource X on Moho needing to end up on your Vall colony).

This is a great point there will be circumstances that are new to even veteran KSP players. And when resources comes out there are going to be different resources on different celestial bodies so sometimes you will have to make those awkward missions from Jool to Moho (that is if you want every resource delivered to each of your colonies so you can build whatever ship wherever). That brings a whole new dimension to the gameplay

7 minutes ago, allanp11 said:

I also hope you're right about needing resources to build a VAB, and have that be a challenging thing to do, instead of something like "Congratulations, you have unlocked a magically OP VAB on Eve!".

I’m worried that it will be just a magical button on the colonies update but it will be an actual challenge when resources come out. This is again why I think resources should come directly after colonies instead of interstellar. 

[Presto200]

@Dakota any chance you can let us know if any of this thread is close to what the plan is for the developers?

[allanp11]

Just now, Presto200 said:

@Dakota any chance you can let us know if any of this thread is close to what the plan is for the developers?

Or if they are getting any ideas from it 

[Scarecrow71]

8 minutes ago, allanp11 said:

Or if they are getting any ideas from it 

Or seeing what we are talking about and going "Yeah...no, that's not happening."

[Presto200]

Just now, Scarecrow71 said:

Or seeing what we are talking about and going "Yeah...no, that's not happening."

Most likely outcome but hopefully they can take some ideas

[allanp11]

17 minutes ago, Presto200 said:

I’m worried that it will be just a magical button on the colonies update but it will be an actual challenge when resources come out. This is again why I think resources should come directly after colonies instead of interstellar. 

The more I think about it, to have all that stuff I mentioned above, basically all of the resource gathering update (which for all we know isn't as big or in depth as I've suggested above) AS WELL AS everything else that's in the colonies update all in one single update, that would be a huuuuuuuge update.  But then, lets say we switched things around and had resource gathering first, well that wouldn't make any sense either because why do you have all these resources that we can gather without having any need for them? Such is life when they are developing a game while we are already playing it. So maybe it does make sense to have colonies first even if it is slightly game breaking for the time being, but like you suggest have resource gathering come straight after, so as to fix not needed any resources in colonies.  But also they would need to communicate that that is the plan.

[Presto200]

Just now, allanp11 said:

The more I think about it, to have all that stuff I mentioned above, basically all of the resource gathering update (which for all we know isn't as big or in depth as I've suggested above) AS WELL AS everything else that's in the colonies update all in one single update, that would be a huuuuuuuge update.  But then, lets say we switched things around and had resource gathering first, well that wouldn't make any sense either because why do you have all these resources that we can gather without having any need for them? Such is life when they are developing a game while we are already playing it. So maybe it does make sense to have colonies first even if it is slightly game breaking for the time being, but like you suggest have resource gathering come straight after, so as to fix not needed any resources in colonies.  But also they would need to communicate that that is the plan.

I agree it is too much to put into one update especially if they are figuring out automated delivery routes to colonies and such for the resource gathering update. I also agree colonies needs to be the first thing available to the public but I don’t understand having interstellar before resources. I think the development process should be:

Colonies - building colonies, getting familiar with building and launching from places other than kerbin, orbital colonies for orbital launches, probably new missions about establishing colonies different places, tutorials for colony building ect.

Resource Gathering - introduce resource gathering and transporting, automated delivery routes, functionality of colonies to their full potential, new parts for drilling with vehicles, tutorials for automated delivery ect.

 

Interstellar - introduce interstellar parts and tutorials on how to manage those maneuvers, Introduce deb-deb system, new missions for interstellar travel, ect.

 

Multiplayer -introduce multiplayer mode/functionality,  introduce the next new solar system here (instead of during the resource gathering update) because then you can explore the new system with friends making it extra special, not much has been said about multiplayer so I can’t say much here, ect.
 

I talked more about this in the thread I made specifically for this topic

 

[Flush Foot]

20 minutes ago, allanp11 said:

why do you have all these resources that we can gather without having any need for them

For one, they might be required (back) on Kerbin to create / fuel more exotic parts.

For another, we had ‘resource management/extraction’ in KSP 1, so we would “know” what to do (basic refuelling infrastructure off-world, for example).

Playing devil’s advocate for a moment though…

We got Sandbox KSP 2 first, allowing everyone to play with all of the parts (and maybe finding problems with them) for the bugs to be found and “quashed”.

Then we got For Science!, giving progression and (probably) pushing many players to explore places they’d not previously been (and experiencing the limitations of the maneuver planner / other systems) and so able to report on still more bugs.

If ‘sandbox-ish’ Colonies do come first, players will (probably) make wildly huge, complicated colonies (as with ships in v0.1) which could reveal ‘learning opportunities’ to the devs that might have taken longer to discover if colonies were being “throttled” by resources.

55 minutes ago, allanp11 said:

Congratulations, you have unlocked a magically OP VAB on Eve!". My comment about throwing the balance off probably should have been that it could throw the balance off, depending on how it is implemented

This is why (if I can find my comments elsewhere on this) I am hoping that, at least before resources are introduced, there is a set of parts that consume vast amounts of energy, produce loads of waste-heat, and either need to run constantly to fill the “part & fuel silos” before an off-Kerbin VAB can produce craft (or expand the colony itself) or that need to be running during the construction of ships/base-parts (kind of like how the StarLab / mini-lab take decent amounts of energy to run for a minimum of 6 minutes)

[Flush Foot]

The hot, ‘hungry’, heavy ‘converters/producers’ might even all be the parts that would get used on-colony once resources come into being, simply without the ‘raw input’ requirement at this stage.

[Presto200]

I was going through some old KSP youtube videos and I found the first show and tell video they posted had 3 good views of colonies, 2 gorund colonies and 1 orbital colony (with a interstellar spaceship attached). What I liked doing is pausing the video and using the " , " and " . " keys to go forward and backward frames so I could look at the details. Keep in mind this video is 3 (almost 4)years old now but still interesting to see. 

Duna Colony at: 0:37

Eeloo? Colony at: 1:08

Orbital Colony at: 1:28

Again I know this is old news but with the conversation on colonies I think its cool to look back on (but does make me a little sour about having so few examples that we get to look at 3-4 years later)

[magnemoe]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:39 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

I whole-heartedly disagree.  While I admit it would make it far easier to explore the Joolian moons if you built one on, say, Laythe, that doesn't mean balance is thrown off.  You still need to have the resources available to first build the VAB, and then to build craft.  It could be as abstract as "You have shipped resources to [insert colony name]", or it could be as detailed as "You need ore and methane at [insert colony name]".  And that doesn't include crew; just because you have Jeb on Kerbin doesn't mean he transports instantly to Dres.

It also becomes an issue of actually flying to other bodies from those distant VAB locations.  We all know that the phase angle for a Duna transfer from Kerbin is something like 44ish degrees.  Approximately.  But what is the phase angle going from Eve?  Or from Eeloo?  Not to mention you have to account for the inclination of the body you are on relative to the body you want to go to.  And this doesn't even include that you can't transfer from a moon to another planet; you have to go from moon to its parent SOI, then from that parent SOI to either Kerbol or direct to the next planet.  So if you wanted to go from Ike to Eve, it'd be Ike to Duna, then Duna to Eve.

And while we're on the subject of interplanetary transfers from places other than Kerbin, fuel really becomes a big issue.  It's far less expensive to go Kerbin-Eve than it is to go Eeloo Eve.  Or, the Kerbal gods forgive, Jool to Moho.  So you'll want to space those extra-Kerbinular VAB locations throughout the Kerbol system so as to not have to use more fuel than necessary (which still doesn't alleviate the potential need for resource X on Moho needing to end up on your Vall colony).

This, now I play KSP as an real time game, so Eve window is closing fast, launch to Eve at day 9, before returning from Minmus. 
Year 1 day 255, two mission to Moho and Duna / Ike, all science collected. Trying to land on Eve. Eeloo window is coming up but want to buff the craft, Dress mission is reaching SOI.

In this setting I launch tanker because I might need them. I would also launch orbital VAB and materials at Eve an Jool and more tankers. 

[Scarecrow71]

One thing I failed to mention in my last response in this thread:  colonies in Kerbol orbit.  How many is too many?  Between which planets?  And for the planets way out there, do you have several?  For example, you may have one in orbit between Moho and Eve...but perhaps 4 of them between Jool and Dres?

[Presto200]

44 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

One thing I failed to mention in my last response in this thread:  colonies in Kerbol orbit.  How many is too many?  Between which planets?  And for the planets way out there, do you have several?  For example, you may have one in orbit between Moho and Eve...but perhaps 4 of them between Jool and Dres?

not sure... 

it may come down to what orbital colonies are useful for, if they are only good for launching ships from orbit then it only matters where a player wants to launch from. Unless orbital colonies have other functionality then it doesn't really matter I guess. Maybe when delievery routes come it will matter more so you can have "checkpoints" for resources, kind of like a distribution center that all deliveries come to so it can send out to multiple planets/moons from the one place.