A Thought On Kerbal Careers

[Scarecrow71]

So I'm sitting here thinking about something I wrote just a few minutes ago about being able to go interplanetary, and the thought about colonization of other solar systems came to mind.  Made me happy for about a second, and then I asked myself "How many Kerbals is it going to take to actually colonize another planet".  And that led me to the ask myself "Is there a difference between the types of Kerbals needed to colonize another planet".  And then I started down this whole rabbit hole of "Used to have pilots and engineers and such, and now we just have generalists".  Which then leads to this thread and the burning question on my mind in the last 2 seconds:

Will we see a return of Kerbal careers, to include having colony-specific careers that are needed to launch and sustain a new colony?

I remember that this was discussed a long time ago, but I can't find the actual thread on it for the life of me.  For all I know, it could have been discussed in multiple threads, and Discord, and in AMAs.  But I'm blind and my search-fu is terrible today, so I'm here to present YAKSPTOATYPDWTD (yet another KSP thread on a topic you probably don't want to discuss).

So what do people think?  Do you think we will see a return to KSP's career types for our lovable space frogs?  Do you want to see this?  Do you think it's important enough to warrant the developers even thinking about it?

For me, personally, I liked the career types in KSP1.  It made me have to think about who was going on what missions, and would I need to hire new Kerbals to satisfy the requirements?  I couldn't send Jeb up to fix a broken satellite; I couldn't restore the Science Jr. after running it with Val.  I could send Bob up by himself, but there would be no SAS control unless I also put a probe core on the rocket.  And in KSP2, at least with For Science!, developers and CM's alike have all stated that the goal of the gadgets now was to think about how to craft your rockets and planes instead of just slapping them on somewhere convenient, which I think plays into having to think about who to send up into space.  Can a pilot found a colony?  How many engineers do you need to build at a location?  Do you need a scientist to do surveys of the planet to find the best location?  Is there a generalist Colonist like we had in Civilization (as an example)?

What does everyone think?

[Flush Foot]

13 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Will we see a return of Kerbal careers, to include having colony-specific careers that are needed to launch and sustain a new colony?

I remember that this was discussed a long time ago, but I can't find the actual thread on it for the life of me

I think I remember something from an interview too, maybe suggesting there would be even more career/specializations in KSP 2, and that there would be ‘conditions’ that could lead to “Safe For Work” population growth in colonies… I might be able to find it in 2019 interviews when KSP 2 was first announced.

[Flush Foot]

Found it! 2021 PC Gamer article

“[Colonies are] capable of producing colonists through a method that we will not describe, for everyone’s sake, after something that the player initiates called a ‘boom event’,” says lead designer Shana Markham.

Watching one of @ShadowZone’s older videos (whether or not he addressed the ‘boom’ in that video) reminded me to look up that article and voila!

[Presto200]

35 minutes ago, Flush Foot said:

Found it! 2021 PC Gamer article

“[Colonies are] capable of producing colonists through a method that we will not describe, for everyone’s sake, after something that the player initiates called a ‘boom event’,” says lead designer Shana Markham.

Watching one of @ShadowZone’s older videos (whether or not he addressed the ‘boom’ in that video) reminded me to look up that article and voila!

The thing is we don't know if colonists means just Kerbals in the colony or if it has t do with actual careers. I think I remember something about the Developers wanting to move away from careers for Kerbals as to make it so you don't have to worry about who you're sending where. I will not speak to if I think this is a good idea or not because my experience in KSP1 was always just sandbox mode for my fun so I don't have experience to look back on. I will try to find where I heard the statement mentioned above

[Flush Foot]

1 minute ago, Presto200 said:

we don't know if colonists means just Kerbals in the colony or if it has t do with actual careers

I suppose that's true, though I was assuming (dangerous, I know) that if vessels were to be launched from colonies, the 'crew roster' would be made up of the colonists.

[Presto200]

1 minute ago, Flush Foot said:

I suppose that's true, though I was assuming (dangerous, I know) that if vessels were to be launched from colonies, the 'crew roster' would be made up of the colonists.

It would be fun to see where different kerbals "homes" are as they travel between colonies as some will be "born" on different Celestial bodies, maybe later we can get little descriptors for each kerbal that shows which colony they are from whether that is "KSC" or "Colony 5 on Tylo". 

 

Anyways, I think the main concern of the original post is that there wont be specific Kerbals that are needed for different functions on missions, like how scientists, engineers, and pilots all did different things in KSP1

[Presto200]

23 minutes ago, Presto200 said:

I will try to find where I heard the statement mentioned above

I cannot find where I thought I heard that there would no longer be careers, maybe there will be down the line, colonies would definitely be a good time to add them, especially if it had differing functionality from careers in KSP1. Maybe @Nerdy_Mike or @Dakota could give some clarification if this is already public knowledge?

[steveman0]

I got the impression with the past discussions and the shear size of some of the passenger modules that colonies may require many, many kerbals to be fully functional for late game such that it doesn't make as much sense to think of them on an individual basis as you might need a whole team to keep some colony modules operational.

That said, the careers aspect did add a nice angle to play for the ones who would be regular kerbolnauts. Needing to bring the right skill set for the mission added a small bit to mission planning. Overall though, I still felt it to be a pretty minor element that I don't feel it'd be a loss if they did away with it. If it was to return, I'd like to see much more dome with it to justify it as a feature to invest in.

[cocoscacao]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Is there a difference between the types of Kerbals needed to colonize another planet

At least one influencer type required per colony. Devs, make it happen!!!

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I very much miss mission specialists. It seems a logical progression to *build* upon those aspects of KSP1.

I think construction times could be reduced (engineer) and hydroponic growth increased (science)  as two .. probably already listed.. 

But I seem to recall something on discord saying nope to that idea.

Pretty much everything except missions got scrapped from career.

I'm sorry Happy Thread

For the generalist angle

I was thinking a small set of skills that increase over time with use could be awesome

Eva construction, walking & lifting, jetpacking, parachuting, flying

As skill increase progressive gains are obtained.

Have no idea what those would be..slightly faster DV, more science gains, chutes handle more G

I dunno just a pipe dream from a hard core career pmayer

[Flush Foot]

15 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

parachuting

Really looking forward to getting those EVA chutes from KSP 1 brought forward into KSP 2! (as we saw Test-Pilot Val using extensively in promotional materials)

[steveman0]

5 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I think construction times could be reduced (engineer) and hydroponic growth increased (science)  as two .. probably already listed.. 

That makes sense when considered for colonies of a few Kerbals. From the looks of the scales in mind, colonies might have hundreds of Kerbals late game once they become self sufficient. At that point, an individual Kerbal's specialty won't matter as much. Are we then going to be balancing whether we want 60 engineers and 40 scientists, or 40-60, 55-45? It strikes me as the kind of tedium found in some strategy games that doesn't fit KSP. If specialties return, I think the focus on applications directly to missions would be more meaningful.

With colonies taking the responsibilities of orbital science and assembly, individual kerbal specialties no longer have a central role. I'm open to ideas on how it could be done. Haven't seen any good suggestions that feel like they would fit the new model.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

"New Model" I think is largely the issue. Nothing of the game resembles the original concept of 'launch rocket and explore'.

If indeed colonies will contain hundreds of actual kerbals (and not just a number crunch like proposed supply lines) then what I sighest regarding generalized skill sets increasing does fit thay model.

A metric you can curate to balance the direction you want your agency to go. Would you like to build faster and have higher power returns, or would you like science to complete faster?

 

I'm thinking of the new model when I imagine a research component of a colony taking a week of run time.

People woth an associated skill would impact that

Currently there is no management involved or even proposed.

And mentioning resource requirements is not I'm any way a confirmation of resource management.

I got to this planet found X & now have checked the box to build infinite Y & Z. That's the feel I get from the "new model" which hasnt any room for suggestion or improvement.

It's already perfect.

Edited April 18 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Scarecrow71]

4 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

If indeed colonies will contain hundreds of actual kerbals

So, I'd like to discuss this particular point for a minute.  I don't think I was verbose enough (or was too obtuse to begin with), and didn't explain what I meant well enough.  I'm not talking about a full complement of Kerbals at a colony in the hundreds of actual bodies.  I'm talking more along the lines of "You want to build a colony here, you need at least 1 Engineer present", followed by "Ok, now you have a colony with x number of residents, but in order to do research you have to station at least 1 Scientist here".  The actual number of residents can be fully abstracted by a number, but I was thinking you'd need to station specific Kerbals at the colony for it to perform specific tasks.  Kind of like the KSC in KSP1, where you have to hire pilots and scientists, but you don't need to hire the desk jockeys at Administration or computer nerds to watch monitors at the Tracking Station.

Or perhaps, instead of having to station specific Kerbals, maybe you have to use sliders like in the old Civilization games to say "Out of the 400 residents at the colony, x percentage of them are focused on science, while another y percentage are focused on expansion".  Again, an abstraction of the actual numbers without having to go into micro-management?

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I agree that the concept can completely be modified or tweaked to maintain relevance in the current game.

It may not take the exact same approach, but the idea that there is no place for mission specialization is silly.

I had more envision a similiar approach to your first point. 

500 civilians would require X of each at station HQ.

Exceeding X would produce gains of some sort. The idea that you would need to micromanage training of every single kerbol seems a bit hyperbolic.

I though Civilian Population was a really clever approach. After a [user defined] number of hours living in space you could accrue flight time & send to school. Eventually these people enter the active roster with a career.

I see the slider concept being the most likely approach if any consideration is given toward this.

 

 

I don't know why. But (to me) it feels like a very high end version of what happens when a great PC game gets port to mobile.

 

Edited April 18 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Presto200]

10 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I agree that the concept can completely be modified or tweaked to maintain relevance in the current game.

It may not take the exact same approach, but the idea that there is no place for mission specialization is silly.

I had more envision a similiar approach to your first point. 

500 civilians would require X of each at station HQ.

Exceeding X would produce gains of some sort. The idea that you would need to micromanage training of every single kerbol seems a bit hyperbolic.

I though Civilian Population was a really clever approach. After a [user defined] number of hours living in space you could accrue flight time & send to school. Eventually these people enter the active roster with a career.

I see the slider concept being the most likely approach if any consideration is given toward this.

 

 

I don't know why. But (to me) it feels like a very high end version of what happens when a great PC game gets port to mobile.

 

This could make the training center do more than just be a place where tutorials are played, they could also be training lots of Kerbals into specific roles on each colony

[Urus28]

I would like a return of kerbal specialists, just to give an actual reason to have multiple kerbals in a crew. Also I think leveling kerbals was good to give a sense of progression in the game.

I'm quite confident that we will see the return of specialists in the game.

I'm far less certain about the leveling because it would require training. Basically, training is making several times the same thing and this is exactly was the devs don't want in KSP2 (this is probably the reason behind the lack of planet occlusion for communication, it requires several communication satellites, this means several times the same kind of mission).

Perhaps the devs will come with a new way to train kerbals to provide leveling without having to perform several times the same mission.

[dr.phees]

There is a brilliant addon for KSP 1, fleshing out the idea with mission ribbons/badges etc. I would have thought to find something like that in KSP 2...

[Fizzlebop Smith]

On 4/19/2024 at 2:05 AM, Urus28 said:

I would like a return of kerbal specialists, just to give an actual reason to have multiple kerbals in a crew. Also I think leveling kerbals was good to give a sense of progression in the game.

I'm quite confident that we will see the return of specialists in the game.

I'm far less certain about the leveling because it would require training. Basically, training is making several times the same thing and this is exactly was the devs don't want in KSP2 (this is probably the reason behind the lack of planet occlusion for communication, it requires several communication satellites, this means several times the same kind of mission).

Perhaps the devs will come with a new way to train kerbals to provide leveling without having to perform several times the same mission.

I am curious what you are basing this on? The conversations on discord have led me to think this is already a final decision.

Is there something specific or is this a gut feeling?

[Urus28]

29 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I am curious what you are basing this on? The conversations on discord have led me to think this is already a final decision.

Is there something specific or is this a gut feeling?

I don't follow the discord, so I am not aware that there is a final decision about this. Clearly it's my personal feeling and I can be wrong. =)

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I don't recall anything specific by the devs regarding it.. but from what I can tell they are not planning in adding finite levels of detail to parts of the game already implemented.

Bug Fixes & Roadmap Features are the focus. I would absolutely LOVE to see some more depth added. Layers like that (I feel) increase the gameplay experience.

I pretend the mod for KSP2 "wayfarer wings" are career badges

I kind of use that and focus specific kerbonauts on missions similiar to ribbons I've already collected.. try to curate a set of ribbons that follow a theme.

Edited April 30 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Spicat]

3 hours ago, dr.phees said:

There is a brilliant addon for KSP 1, fleshing out the idea with mission ribbons/badges etc. I would have thought to find something like that in KSP 2...