IG/Take2 - Class Action

[Devblaze]

Hey there people.

With all the recent developments surrounding the closure of Intercept Games and the uncertain future for the game have raised some questions from myself and a few other members in the IG Discord. Many of us are extremely frustrated and trying to get any answers about the fate of the game we were all so excited to support.

Which brings me to my question - some people have been discussing the possibility of pursing legal action against take-two interactive.  So... Are we as a community able to initiate a class action against take 2 for what many perceive as breach of trust and failure to deliver on promises made during the early access phase? I've went through and stored all the development posts, kerb, etc. All of which promise a great future for the development and game as a whole.

I guess I'm hoping someone here may have some insight or experience related to consumer rights or contractual obligations or any other legal options that could shed light on this issue.

PS. And before anyone says we can't do anything. Here recently games that don't hold up to their promises have been getting shut down and sued. I forgot the name of it, but it literally just happened a few months ago with some asset flipped game - while I know that doesn't apply directly to us. 

Edited May 3 by Devblaze

[Flush Foot]

7 minutes ago, Devblaze said:

Many of us are extremely frustrated and trying to get any answers about the fate of the game we were all so excited to support

[Icegrx]

This is silly 

[PDCWolf]

I'd say the best we can do (specially me as a third worlder and thus unable to sue), is to just flag the steam page for fraud. It's probably gonna prompt Steam to take action if enough people do it.

[Devblaze]

1 minute ago, Icegrx said:

This is silly 

How so? Forcing the parent company to give us our money back is literally the only thing we're able to do.

[Scarecrow71]

23 minutes ago, Devblaze said:

KSP 1 AND KSP 2 HAS NO ARBITRATION CLAUSE

This is patently false.  TT's terms of agreement AND their basic EULA both state that any legal disputes must go through a 3rd party mediator to be resolved prior to initiating court action.

Edited May 3 by Scarecrow71

[Devblaze]

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

This is patently false.  TT's terms of agreement AND their basic EULA both state that any legal disputes must go through a 3rd party mediator to be resolved prior to initiating court action.

Removed it from the original post, I had only went in the EULA and Ctrl + f'd arbitration. 

Thanks for being so well versed in these long legal agreements.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I'd say the best we can do (specially me as a third worlder and thus unable to sue), is to just flag the steam page for fraud. It's probably gonna prompt Steam to take action if enough people do it.

This is the angle I will attempt when I try to get another refund.

If I decide to do so.. if the game gets a semblance of bug correction in June AND continues to see mod development.. I will wait and hope for contract / mission packs.

But I feel the pace of true communication combined with promotional material.. I would make the argument that development was always a bust. They used EA as an attempt to recoup cost & not as intended.

"Pacing and communication suggest that the development teams never continued work after the breaks. 6 weeks of "sprint planning" followed by closure suggests this was an attempt to string everything out while proper legal hoops were jumped.

The game was EA only in the broadest sense & initial state of the game was largely unplayable beyond demo purposes.

It was never intended to see completion.. I want my money back."

 

I think this may be the only real hope people have at refunds. You must look for angles not covered by the EA agreements.

It really sucks that KSP2 never utilized the community fully for development. 

[Scarecrow71]

Just now, Devblaze said:

Removed it from the original post, I had only went in the EULA and Ctrl + f'd arbitration. 

Thanks for being so well versed in these long legal agreements.

No worries.  I actually had a situation last summer (23) where I need to look this stuff up.  Don't ask why - I'm enforcing my own non-official NDA on the topic.  Just know that the terms and EULA both indicate a 3rd party mediator.

With that said, there's nothing that says you can't engage a mediator and then sue if that doesn't work out.  The big problem will be getting enough signatures on a petition or other legal document to show cause for mediation.

[dave1904]

I wouldn't get to emotionally involved with it man. 

Maybe Take Two is doing what they are doing because the developer is not delivering on promises and they were forced to do it. What the hell do we know.  It wasn't a deliberate cash grab. It is in their interest for KSP2 to be successful and no successful game gets cancelled because of corporate greed. On the contrary.

[Devblaze]

9 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

No worries.  I actually had a situation last summer (23) where I need to look this stuff up.  Don't ask why - I'm enforcing my own non-official NDA on the topic.  Just know that the terms and EULA both indicate a 3rd party mediator.

With that said, there's nothing that says you can't engage a mediator and then sue if that doesn't work out.  The big problem will be getting enough signatures on a petition or other legal document to show cause for mediation.

 

10 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

This is the angle I will attempt when I try to get another refund.

If I decide to do so.. if the game gets a semblance of bug correction in June AND continues to see mod development.. I will wait and hope for contract / mission packs.

But I feel the pace of true communication combined with promotional material.. I would make the argument that development was always a bust. They used EA as an attempt to recoup cost & not as intended.

"Pacing and communication suggest that the development teams never continued work after the breaks. 6 weeks of "sprint planning" followed by closure suggests this was an attempt to string everything out while proper legal hoops were jumped.

The game was EA only in the broadest sense & initial state of the game was largely unplayable beyond demo purposes.

It was never intended to see completion.. I want my money back."

 

I think this may be the only real hope people have at refunds. You must look for angles not covered by the EA agreements.

It really sucks that KSP2 never utilized the community fully for development. 

I have arranged a meeting with a local lawyer that has a lot of experience in contractual obligations and consumer rights for next Thursday. (Thank god for free assessments)

I'm going to work on editing a clip of all the times they've said the game won't be canceled, they've been funded and that the game will get seen throughout development.

[Scarecrow71]

5 minutes ago, Devblaze said:

I'm going to work on editing a clip of all the times they've said the game won't be canceled, they've been funded and that the game will get seen throughout development.

Make sure to include the AMA's in that clip and/or your notes.  Lot of stuff buried in those that might be useful.

Let us know how this all turns out.

[Oak7603]

I don't know how all this works in America but I don't see anyway that this will achieve anything. It was an early access game that has failed. You knew it was early access. You knew what that meant, so you knew it might fail or stop being supported. You gambled. You lost. 

Imagine what this would do with the whole industry if this was even possible.

How could any judge, or whatever you have in America that would look at this, find that a company has to complete and support all the projects it starts, especially when they have been clear that it was early access and might fail? 

This is ridiculous. 

[Icegrx]

3 minutes ago, Oak7603 said:

This is ridiculous. 

Agreed, steam literally warns against such things before you buy an EA game. 

[TechieV]

I dunno. I support keeping KSP 2 running, but this feels like a bit of a stretch. I dunno if it‘s even legal to pursue this.

 

Any lawyers or people related to law reading this, please share your take on this. Legal information is needed first before taking action. 

[bcink]

6 minutes ago, Icegrx said:

Agreed, steam literally warns against such things before you buy an EA game. 

Steam can say whatever they want. The representatives for this game literally stated "this game is fully funded through 1.0." We have EVERY cause to pursue legal action. 

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The big problem will be getting enough signatures on a petition or other legal document to show cause for mediation.

I HIGHLY doubt there will be a problem getting enough signatures.

[Icegrx]

1 minute ago, bcink said:

Steam can say whatever they want. The representatives for this game literally stated "this game is fully funded through 1.0." We have EVERY cause to pursue legal action.

Goooooooood luck with that, you’re going to need it 

[TechieV]

1 minute ago, Icegrx said:

Goooooooood luck with that, you’re going to need it 

What‘s your reason?

[bcink]

1 minute ago, Icegrx said:

Goooooooood luck with that, you’re going to need it 

suck the teet all you want. facts are facts.

[herbal space program]

I am no lawyer, but I gather the best possible outcome this community could achieve by legal action would be for everybody to get their lousy $50 back (minus legal fees), after which TT might feel motivated to retaliate by driving a stake through the heart of the franchise forever. I really don't want to see that happen, so count me out even if it is possible.

[dlrk]

Just so everyone understands, contrary to popular belief, there is no "video game exception" to civil liability. Neither T2, nor any other developer, can successfully respond to a lawsuit by saying "Judge, it's just a video game".

[Icegrx]

34 minutes ago, TechieV said:

What‘s your reason?

Besides the literal disclaimer before you buy an EA. 
I’m also skeptical trying to pin down “the game is fully funded to 1.0” as a legal statement. Even if they can, what does 1.0 legally mean? They could change the version number tomorrow if they want. How are you going to bind them to these statements, how are you going to define completion? 
 

Im skeptical.

9 minutes ago, dlrk said:

Neither T2, nor any other developer, can successfully respond to a lawsuit by saying "Judge, it's just a video game".

No one even mentioned this

Edited May 3 by Icegrx

[Flush Foot]

6 minutes ago, Icegrx said:

Even if they can, what does 1.0 legally mean?

In theory, wouldn't / shouldn't 1.0 mean "is done with EA / has met all/most of what was planned for EA"?

Namely:

On 5/1/2024 at 11:41 AM, Flush Foot said:

Promotional materials (camera-screenshot of EA Release Trailer) said ‘more features’ would be coming during EA, and since this wasn’t an indie studio that regrettably went under, shouldn’t such a pledge have been “trustworthy/enforceable”?

 

[Oak7603]

 

1 hour ago, bcink said:

Steam can say whatever they want. The representatives for this game literally stated "this game is fully funded through 1.0." We have EVERY cause to pursue legal action. 

Why do you? 

Because some post somewhere said that they had the funding? So what. Do you think companies arent allows to change direction, change staff, change priorities, deal with economic changes, chose to cut costs, close departments, all because they said they were going to do something? 

They are not obligated to provide you with anything with Ksp2. They haven't lied about the product you bought. It was clearly early access. It was labelled as such. It is mentioned all the time.  You accepted the risks that it entails when you handed over your money.

You are not entitled to anything. 

This post is the funniest thing ever.

I'll do a deal with you, if you manage to get people's money back, then you can have mine. If you don't however, you can pay me the money I paid for the game.

 

[Superpluto126]

Not at all, T2 would be able to get far better lawyers. It would be better for the entire  KSP Community to Boycott T2, and Review bombing the game won't help either.