[1.8+] Real Fuels

[jaunco325]

ok thanks

[Minowara]

Did this mod make any change recently to the use of oxygen in service modules? In my RP-0 campaign, after a recent update, I am suddenly unable to add oxygen.

When I dug around in my persistent.SFS file, it seemed like this capability was now restricted to a research node called standardDocking, where previously it was definitely under crewSurvivability.

[HideoKuze]

I got a problem when tweakscale engines. When I scale the stock and KW engines (including solid engines), the thrust won't be scaled. I have installed realfuel and I don't know whether this error is related. Here is my log file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao4ZI6lp9rIGubt3cA5H3iknsr2VtA?e=OxqCFB

[Lisias]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:44 AM, HideoKuze said:

I got a problem when tweakscale engines. When I scale the stock and KW engines (including solid engines), the thrust won't be scaled. I have installed realfuel and I don't know whether this error is related. Here is my log file: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao4ZI6lp9rIGubt3cA5H3iknsr2VtA?e=OxqCFB

Hi, TweakScale maintainer here. This is not a problem on RealFuels, it's just lack of support on TweakScale on handling Real Fuels.

This is currently Work In Progress here: https://github.com/TweakScale/Companion_FuelSwitches/tree/master/Source

I'm working to push this thing into the wild this month!

Cheers!

[Mitokandria]

Want to say I appreciate the change to the ignition failure message. I played with ullage turned off for so long because I didn't understand what it meant until I watched a youtuber play.

[HideoKuze]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:23 AM, Lisias said:

Hi, TweakScale maintainer here. This is not a problem on RealFuels, it's just lack of support on TweakScale on handling Real Fuels.

This is currently Work In Progress here: https://github.com/TweakScale/Companion_FuelSwitches/tree/master/Source

I'm working to push this thing into the wild this month!

Cheers!

Thanks for your reply and hard work  for the community! Looking forward for the new version. I have another question, I got a warning from CKAN said something about TweakScale does not support CKAN anymore? I'm not sure, English is not my native language and I didn't read carefully, can I keeping using CKAN to install and update tweak scale?

Edited July 3, 2023 by HideoKuze

[Lisias]

14 hours ago, HideoKuze said:

Thanks for your reply and hard work  for the community! <..>

Welcome!

I moved the discussion to the TweakScale's thread.

Cheers!

[SpacedInvader]

Recently I've been getting literally hundreds of thousands of the following in my KSP.log after entering either the VAB or SPH:

[LOG 02:34:26.917] [RealFuelsFilters] Updated info boxes
[EXC 02:34:26.969] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	RealFuels.ModuleShowInfoUpdater.Update () (at <c6afe99770794e0f8e6d2c11be87d511>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)

And then this in the Player.log:

[RealFuelsFilters] Updated info boxes 
(Filename: C:\buildslave\unity\build\Runtime/Export/Debug/Debug.bindings.h Line: 35)

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at RealFuels.ModuleShowInfoUpdater.Update () [0x00068] in <c6afe99770794e0f8e6d2c11be87d511>:0 
UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:Internal_LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.Logger:LogException(Exception, Object)
UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)
 
(Filename: <c6afe99770794e0f8e6d2c11be87d511> Line: 0)

This does not happen in a minimal install, so there's clearly a mod conflict going on. I am currently trying to zero in on the culprit, but its going to take me a while as I've got 250ish mods and that means a lot of time sitting on the game loading screen. In the meantime, I'm hoping someone here will be able to clue me in to what this function does and why it might be getting called hundreds of thousands of times as that might help me narrow down the source of the issue more quickly.

I'm also going to include my KSP / Player log files (zipped because even with just a quick pop-in and out, they are 40Mb each) from the full install until I can narrow it down. I know its not optimal, but if anyone is willing to have a look at them in the meantime they might be able to find the offender where I could not.

Some things to note about the issue in case anyone has any ideas:

- It starts as soon as I enter either the VAB or the SPH without requiring a part to be selected.

- Once it starts, it does not stop (at least for the several minutes I waited here) whether I move to the flight scene or exit out to the space center.

- Searching for the error returned exactly one result reported in the RealFuels-Stock thread about a year ago, but that never saw any resolution.

Hoping someone has an idea of what might be going on and in the meantime, I'll be reloading the game a whole lot of times trying to narrow down the possible list of culprits.

EDIT: Not much luck so far... Its looking like a combination of mods (or at least one that wasn't in the install at the same time as some needed dependency while I was testing) as I've gone through the entire folder pulling mods and restarting and can only replicate it when everything is installed still. Still hoping someone familiar with RF's inner workings can give me some guidance on what the NRE means and what could be causing it to run into the hundreds of thousands like that.

EDIT2: Still working on narrowing the issue down. Have found that at least one component of the problem is related to the mod Extended information about scientific experiments in VAB & SPH, but there is still another component to the issue as a minimal install with only Real Fuels, its dependencies, and the extended info mod still does not produce the endless NREs.

Edited July 29, 2023 by SpacedInvader

[SpacedInvader]

@Starwaster Sorry for the ping, but 1: IDK who else to ping about this for RF these days, and 2: this one is sorta nasty and now that I've got it figured out I wanted to make sure someone actually looks at it. Will also be pinging LGG on his thread because the three-way issue involves two of his mods and this one.

In regards to the above issue, it turns out that its a 3-way interaction between Real Fuels, Extended information about scientific experiments in VAB & SPH, and Rover Science Continued, or potentially their associated dependencies. To replicate, have the following installed (also to be clear, except for BG, everything on this list is a dependency for at least one of the three primary mods):

Breaking Ground (BreakingGround-DLC 1.7.1)
ClickThrough Blocker (ClickThroughBlocker 1:2.1.10.21)
Community Resource Pack (CommunityResourcePack v112.0.1)
Extended information about scientific experiments in VAB (ScienceSituationInfo 1:1.3.5)
Module Manager (ModuleManager 4.2.3)
Real Fuels (RealFuels 1:v15.6.2.0)
RealFuels-Stock (RealFuels-Stock v5.1.0)
Rover Science Continued (RoverScienceCont 2.3.5.7)
Solver Engines plugin (SolverEngines v3.14.0)
SpaceTux Library (SpaceTuxLibrary 0.0.8.5)
Toolbar Controller (ToolbarController 1:0.1.9.11)

Start / Open a game, and then enter the VAB or SPH. After this, the following NRE will begin repeating endlessly until you exit out to the main menu and has resulted in 300MB+ log files before I realized what was going on:

[LOG 02:16:41.719] [RealFuelsFilters] Updated info boxes
[EXC 02:16:41.720] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
	RealFuels.ModuleShowInfoUpdater.Update () (at <f43ec557c13d4aa9907800f6eb365ca2>:0)
	UnityEngine.DebugLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	ModuleManager.UnityLogHandle.InterceptLogHandler:LogException(Exception, Object)
	UnityEngine.Debug:CallOverridenDebugHandler(Exception, Object)

The bug requires all three mods to be installed and any two of them can coexist without issue.

Here are the logs from the minimal install: Logs

Edited July 29, 2023 by SpacedInvader

[Starwaster]

@SpacedInvader I'll take a poke at it and see if I can find out what's happening, but I have to warn you, I'm not involved with Real Fuels development anymore and only use my own branch for gameplay.

I'll have to install the current official branch and the other mods you mentioned. I can do that, but you might have better luck going into the Realism Overhaul discord channel and bugging them about it directly. I don't know if they even monitor these forums anymore. You could try making an issue on the github repository page but I don't think they really look at those anymore either. They definitely don't care about the last issue I raised.

[SpacedInvader]

1 hour ago, Starwaster said:

@SpacedInvader I'll take a poke at it and see if I can find out what's happening, but I have to warn you, I'm not involved with Real Fuels development anymore and only use my own branch for gameplay.

I'll have to install the current official branch and the other mods you mentioned. I can do that, but you might have better luck going into the Realism Overhaul discord channel and bugging them about it directly. I don't know if they even monitor these forums anymore. You could try making an issue on the github repository page but I don't think they really look at those anymore either. They definitely don't care about the last issue I raised.

I see... I mean, if you're not really involved anymore, then I'd say don't worry about it too much. As I mentioned before, the only reason I pinged you was because you were the only person I knew to have worked on RF (at least at some point in the past) who had been active here for a while. There's also the fact that since I posted this, I've decided not to use the info mod because now that I've finally got a chance to test it without it breaking my game, I've found it doesn't actually work for most non-squad experiments. So if you want to put in the effort to track down the issue, its mostly to try to fix it for the sake of fixing it or if it ever comes up again. Since LGG is responsible for the other two parts of the interaction, he may be able to fix it on his end if its important.

That all said, what's different about your branch compared to the official? Looks like its been several years since your branch has been updated based on the github info?

[Starwaster]

11 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

That all said, what's different about your branch compared to the official? Looks like its been several years since your branch has been updated based on the github info?

It lacks certain changes that were made in the official branch. Some of it is just general: I feel that RF has become more and more bloated with features that were made to serve Realism Overhaul, which  RF predates. RF used to be a much simpler mod introducing a variety of real resources + boiloff for cryogenic resources + normalizing real world volume units.

But also, there have been specific changes that I have problems with such as to the Unmanaged Resources feature. The changes made break that feature as it was originally designed. (and I should know since I designed it)

Another such change is adding specific heat (hsp) back into cryogenic resources. (I removed specific heat from cryo quite a few years back). Without going into too much detail, the net impact is that cryo resources will over time absorb more thermal energy than is realistically possible. That means more heat energy that needs to be removed by radiators/cryocoolers and it's energy that shouldn't be present. The full answer is a good deal more complex than that and more complex than I feel like dealing with here right now. (I will say this though: In terms of heat, there's sensible heat and latent heat and you should never be dealing with both at the same time. Cryo should only ever be dealing with latent heat. Never sensible because it is assumed to be at its boiloff temperature at all times.)

That second item is something you will probably never notice if you only deal with cryogenic resources for launch and not long term storage, such as ISRU or cryo depots. If you play with either of those then you may have noticed that over time you built up more heat than you could easily get rid of.

[SpacedInvader]

11 hours ago, Starwaster said:

That second item is something you will probably never notice if you only deal with cryogenic resources for launch and not long term storage, such as ISRU or cryo depots. If you play with either of those then you may have noticed that over time you built up more heat than you could easily get rid of.

I have tried using hydrolox to fuel Duna missions in the past and things didn't really go so well because I couldn't really prevent boiloff, though IDK if it had anything to do with this specific issue or just failing to properly account for it. Is there an easy(ish) way to test this? Seems like at the very least, if it really is going to be an issue for me, it can be quashed with a MM patch, but I'd like to be sure its needed for my applications.

[NathanKell]

Workaround released.

[Starwaster]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:43 PM, SpacedInvader said:

I have tried using hydrolox to fuel Duna missions in the past and things didn't really go so well because I couldn't really prevent boiloff, though IDK if it had anything to do with this specific issue or just failing to properly account for it. Is there an easy(ish) way to test this? Seems like at the very least, if it really is going to be an issue for me, it can be quashed with a MM patch, but I'd like to be sure its needed for my applications.

What it looks like is this: A lower level of boiloff at the start of the mission ramping up to excessively higher boiloff over time. Time warps high enough to trigger analytical heat will make it happen a lot faster.

Lower/higher being relative to before the changes were made (March 2022 IIRC).

What happens is that the part has more thermal inertia than it should have and the cooling effect of boiloff is diminished. You're basically having to cool down not just the tank part, but the cryogens inside. Imagine that your LH2/LOX are being heated to around 172+ Kelvin. IRL that can't happen because they never go above their boiling temperature until after they've changed state into a gas.

@RESOURCE_DEFINITION[*]:HAS[#vsp[*],#hsp[*]]:FINAL
{
	@hsp = 0
}

That will patch every resource to set specific heat to 0 if both specific heat and latent heat are present.  (latent heat of vaporization should only be present for cryogenic resources)

[SpacedInvader]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:04 PM, Starwaster said:

[Snip]

Thanks for this, sounds like I may have experienced the issue so I'll throw this in my custom folder for good measure.

[Lan_Morehell]

Good evemimg!

Please help me with Real Fuels. It has just stopped showing any tank structure info along with filling and utilization info. I can still fill the tank through the menu from Actions editor, but it is completely  empty in part options.

Cannot see nay warnings related to real fuel also. It seems just like I had inadvertently turned something off and don't know what....

Spoiler

https://i.postimg.cc/X7K8cq6K/ksprf.png

I have RO and RF updated to last version. Tried to downgrade 1-2 versions back with no effect

[Starwaster]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:51 AM, Lan_Morehell said:

Good evemimg!

Please help me with Real Fuels. It has just stopped showing any tank structure info along with filling and utilization info. I can still fill the tank through the menu from Actions editor, but it is completely  empty in part options.

Cannot see nay warnings related to real fuel also. It seems just like I had inadvertently turned something off and don't know what....

  Hide contents

https://i.postimg.cc/X7K8cq6K/ksprf.png

I have RO and RF updated to last version. Tried to downgrade 1-2 versions back with no effect

Looking at your attached image:
Did you try clicking that little white arrow next to Real Fuels? That indicates grouping. When it points to the right like that, the Real Fuels menu items are hidden. Click it and they will be revealed.

(notice how the arrows point down for kOS and  Procedural Parts and their menu items are shown)

[jeffreymelton24]

Hello everyone! I have a couple of questions regarding RF Settings, if anyone that is willing answer them for me, i would greatly appreciate it. 
1. VarianceandResiduals = 1.0, What exactly does this mean? what does the value 1 stand for? does the value go higher? What happens if you set it at 2 or 3?
2. in a similar vein, I was wanting all engines to have a varying thrust of about +7% to -5%. Is there a way to achieve this?


3. in these configs below, what exactly do they represent? I know it has to do with fuel moving back and forth (i think), but if someone could indulge me and give me some specifics it would be nice. Personally I want to know if the current configs are pretty close to real life or should i tweak some things to get closer to real life performance.

    Ullage
    {
        simulateUllage = true
        limitedIgnitions = true
        shutdownEngineWhenUnstable = true
        explodeEngineWhenTooUnstable = true
        stabilityPower = 0.5
        
        naturalDiffusionRateX = 0.05
        naturalDiffusionRateY = 0.06
        naturalDiffusionAccThresh = 0.005
        
        translateAxialCoefficientX = 0.30
        translateAxialCoefficientY = 1.5 // 0.86
        translateSidewayCoefficientX = 0.05
        translateSidewayCoefficientY = 0.03
        
        rotateYawPitchCoefficientX = 0.018
        rotateYawPitchCoefficientY = 0.012
        rotateRollCoefficientX = 0.018
        rotateRollCoefficientY = 0.024
        
        ventingVelocity = 100
        ventingAccThreshold = 0.0000001
    }
}

Thank you all for your time!

[Starwaster]

@jeffreymelton24 I can't comment on the variance and residuals part but regarding the ullage section of the configs, I wouldn't change it from the provided settings. They're mostly empirically established over years of the mod's lifetime. Most of them control how quickly ullage becomes unstable over time or in response to a tank part's motion. Venting refers to the use of propulsive venting using boiloff mass to offset ullage instability. limitedIgnitions and simulateUllage should be self-explanatory. Setting them false would disable the respective features entirely. (explodeEngineWhenTooUnstable - I don't think that was ever implemented)

[jeffreymelton24]

14 hours ago, Starwaster said:

@jeffreymelton24 I can't comment on the variance and residuals part but regarding the ullage section of the configs, I wouldn't change it from the provided settings. They're mostly empirically established over years of the mod's lifetime. Most of them control how quickly ullage becomes unstable over time or in response to a tank part's motion. Venting refers to the use of propulsive venting using boiloff mass to offset ullage instability. limitedIgnitions and simulateUllage should be self-explanatory. Setting them false would disable the respective features entirely. (explodeEngineWhenTooUnstable - I don't think that was ever implemented)

thnks you for the clarification. I appreciate, every one of your responses to me accross these numerous topics of discussion.

[Mr_Memetic]

any way to fill multiple tanks with the right fuel at once? EX: filling multiple oscar fuel gets tedious after a while.

 

If it were to get added in, it would be nice to add a way to click-drag the fuel tanks you want to modify in the gui.

[bigyihsuan]

1 hour ago, Mr_Memetic said:

any way to fill multiple tanks with the right fuel at once? EX: filling multiple oscar fuel gets tedious after a while.

 

If it were to get added in, it would be nice to add a way to click-drag the fuel tanks you want to modify in the gui.

You can always copy the filled tank.

[WolfieKSP]

Hello, im pretty sure I have discovered a bug, my Nerva Engines have been getting horrible dV's. For example in my tested setup, using the Rhino (Hydrolox) is getting about 3137 dV, meanwhile my Nerva in pure LH2 config has been getting  only 1328 dV!!! I've done the math and i found out the reason is in the dry mass. For some reason the solo LH2 tank has more dry mass than Hydrolox one, when accounted for the right dry mass (dry mass used by the hydrolox) my rocket gets 3529 dV (not ingame, only on paper, I used Tsiolkovksi's rocket equation) which is more probable in real life.

The dry masses are 26664 kg for hydrolox
and 34730kg  for LH2

The wet masses are 55464 kg for hydrolox

and 40730 kg for LH2

The Isp's are 440 for Rhino (Hydrolox)
and 850 for Nerva (LH2)
(If you want to do the math yourself)

So to summarize the problem is in additional dry mass for LH2, could you please fix this? The game is just irritating like this

[WolfieKSP]

8 minutes ago, WolfieKSP said:

Hello, im pretty sure I have discovered a bug, my Nerva Engines have been getting horrible dV's. For example in my tested setup, using the Rhino (Hydrolox) is getting about 3137 dV, meanwhile my Nerva in pure LH2 config has been getting  only 1328 dV!!! I've done the math and i found out the reason is in the dry mass. For some reason the solo LH2 tank has more dry mass than Hydrolox one, when accounted for the right dry mass (dry mass used by the hydrolox) my rocket gets 3529 dV (not ingame, only on paper, I used Tsiolkovksi's rocket equation) which is more probable in real life.

The dry masses are 26664 kg for hydrolox
and 34730kg  for LH2

The wet masses are 55464 kg for hydrolox

and 40730 kg for LH2

The Isp's are 440 for Rhino (Hydrolox)
and 850 for Nerva (LH2)
(If you want to do the math yourself)

So to summarize the problem is in additional dry mass for LH2, could you please fix this? The game is just irritating like this

Please disregard the rant above ^ I have forgot about my second tank, but the problem still remains, my Nerva's have horrible dV's  in Hydrogen config (methane is a little bit better) I think the problem is in the hydrogen storage now