[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[Beale]

31 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

good start. I would make the curvature and indentation more severe honestly. @hoojiwana's tiny LFO tanks are pretty much perfect in terms of curvature and AO.
The best looking tanks you've ever made/helped make are in AB Launchers. The bulkhead on the 5m Energia tank is just flipping cool. I love it. For the large tanks, I would definitely up the curvature quite a bit. 

Here's a couple of deeper curves, with two and three row of polygons.

Much a fan of the left, as the right looks janky from some angles.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Beale

[CobaltWolf]

@Beale do you actually make them for each part? I make one tank end for a series of parts, export it separately, and drop them into the top / bottom in Unity. The rims for each tank also share common textures, but I usually make tanks from a template (make a cylinder with the rims so the sizing is consistent, then model the rest of the tank from there, translating the ends of the tank to get the right length). I don't really ever merge objects in Maya because I like to keep my workflow non-destructive, so it makes sense to just drop the tank ends in via Unity.

[curtquarquesso]

1 hour ago, Beale said:

Here's a couple of deeper curves, with two and three row of polygons.
Much a fan of the left, as the right looks janky from some angles.

I prefer the one on the right for sure. I think adding some more AO on the bulkhead, and the sidewall would help. Plus, the top of the bulkhead should be level with the top of the tank itself. The left configuration just looks really chunky. I know that on small parts, the relative size of the tank side-walls is thicker, but it just seems almost too thick. Go have a look at the stuff you did on AB Launchers. It's excellent reference, and your best tank work for certain.

11 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

@Beale do you actually make them for each part? I make one tank end for a series of parts, export it separately, and drop them into the top / bottom in Unity. The rims for each tank also share common textures, but I usually make tanks from a template (make a cylinder with the rims so the sizing is consistent, then model the rest of the tank from there, translating the ends of the tank to get the right length). I don't really ever merge objects in Maya because I like to keep my workflow non-destructive, so it makes sense to just drop the tank ends in via Unity.

The issue with that is draw calls. Every separate mesh in Unity is a draw call. If you combine separate meshes before you export, Unity won't count it as a draw call, but when you do it in Unity, it adds a draw call, which is undesirable, and easily avoidable. 

If the mesh isn't animated, shares the same material, and doesn't light up, it's always best to combine the meshes before you get them into Unity.

In Wings, procedures like insetting, beveling, scaling, and moving verts around are really easy to document, and very structured in nature. What Beale did by documenting the steps was the best possible way for him to keep internal consistency when modeling parts. I do that myself a lot as well. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by curtquarquesso

[CobaltWolf]

16 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

The issue with that is draw calls. Every separate mesh in Unity is a draw call. If you combine separate meshes before you export, Unity won't count it as a draw call, but when you do it in Unity, it adds a draw call, which is undesirable, and easily avoidable. 

If the mesh isn't animated, shares the same material, and doesn't light up, it's always best to combine the meshes before you get them into Unity.

In Wings, procedures like insetting, beveling, scaling, and moving verts around are really easy to document, and very structured in nature. What Beale did by documenting the steps was the best possible way for him to keep internal consistency when modeling parts. I do that myself a lot as well. 

I... uh... oh. *runs to fix BDB*

[Beale]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

 

I... uh... oh. *runs to fix BDB*

Your workflow is still pretty clever, you just need to do the combining pre-Unity  

New Fairing!

Problem!

Second stage just... flips over. You cannot fly the rocket. It is impossible.

Before I go insane and just add bodyLiftMultiplier = 0 to every single part, any probable causes?

[VenomousRequiem]

I feel like that's just KSP not liking small parts. 

Also, any way you could make that fairing orange?  

[ThiccRocketScientist]

Sweet! New awesome updates!!!

[hraban]

3 minutes ago, Beale said:

Problem!

Second stage just... flips over. You cannot fly the rocket. It is impossible.

Hello Beale,

check the weights of Parts.

[hoojiwana]

3 minutes ago, Beale said:

Second stage just... flips over. You cannot fly the rocket. It is impossible.

Before I go insane and just add bodyLiftMultiplier = 0 to every single part, any probable causes?

If you've made procedural fairings using the stock module, you may have run into the bug where the fairings center of lift and center of drag is way above the actual fairings. Stock Bug Fixes has a fix for this in general, but for users who don't have that I'm not sure what you would do that doesn't render the part exploitable. Maybe add PhysicsSignificance = 1 to the config so the fairing physics is added to the part its attached to? That might cause other issues though.

[curtquarquesso]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

I... uh... oh. *runs to fix BDB*

Huehuehuehuehue... I believe you can check draw calls in Unity. I've had issues with it accurately displaying the correct number of draw calls, so make sure it's accurate before you try to fix your stuff, and start a wild goose-chase hunting down draw calls that you're not causing.

22 minutes ago, Beale said:

New Fairing!

Problem!
Second stage just... flips over. You cannot fly the rocket. It is impossible.
Before I go insane and just add bodyLiftMultiplier = 0 to every single part, any probable causes?

New Fairing!
Holy crap, that is so much better. I love it. Keep it up.
If I write it, would you bundle in a MM patch to make the fairing base use Procedural Fairings in addition to the stock fairing system? I believe I can make a patch that duplicates the base model and uses Procedural Fairings, but only if Procedural Fairings is installed. I wouldn't want users who don't have Procedural Fairings installed to be stuck with a useless part in their catalog.

Problem!
Hmm. Yeah. Let's try to diagnose the problem here. Screen of CoM and CoL for the stage in the VAB? Do check out what hooj said. Not sure I've ever come across that bug, but that would certainly do it. Sometimes on upper stages, the SII engine doesn't have enough drag to overcome the drag of the fairings. I think we can fix this though properly without cheating.

Edited February 24, 2016 by curtquarquesso

[Beale]

35 minutes ago, VenomousRequiem said:

I feel like that's just KSP not liking small parts. 

Also, any way you could make that fairing orange?  

I can take a look, sure  

35 minutes ago, John The Physicist said:

Sweet! New awesome updates!!!

Happy to deliver  

30 minutes ago, hraban said:

Hello Beale,

check the weights of Parts.

29 minutes ago, hoojiwana said:

If you've made procedural fairings using the stock module, you may have run into the bug where the fairings center of lift and center of drag is way above the actual fairings. Stock Bug Fixes has a fix for this in general, but for users who don't have that I'm not sure what you would do that doesn't render the part exploitable. Maybe add PhysicsSignificance = 1 to the config so the fairing physics is added to the part its attached to? That might cause other issues though.

14 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

Huehuehuehuehue... I believe you can check draw calls in Unity. I've had issues with it accurately displaying the correct number of draw calls, so make sure it's accurate before you try to fix your stuff, and start a wild goose-chase hunting down draw calls that you're not causing.

New Fairing!
Holy crap, that is so much better. I love it. Keep it up.
If I write it, would you bundle in a MM patch to make the fairing base use Procedural Fairings in addition to the stock fairing system? I believe I can make a patch that duplicates the base model and uses Procedural Fairings, but only if Procedural Fairings is installed. I wouldn't want users who don't have Procedural Fairings installed to be stuck with a useless part in their catalog.

Problem!
Hmm. Yeah. Let's try to diagnose the problem here. Screen of CoM and CoL for the stage in the VAB? Do check out what hooj said. Not sure I've ever come across that bug, but that would certainly do it. Sometimes on upper stages, the SII engine doesn't have enough drag to overcome the drag of the fairings. I think we can fix this though properly without cheating.

Thanks for the help, it was indeed a fairing COL issue / bug - I think I even accidentally caught it in an earlier screenshot, see below.

With just the nosecone as a payload, the two stages almost make orbit (but the Pe was still below ground). The ISPs were "correct" (probably not) for Hydrogen Peroxide fuel, around 270. I'll probably increase them a little bit.

Anyway, the Waxwing is required going forward! I do still plan to use hoojiwana's model for that.

@curtquarquesso That would be amazing! No pressure though.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Beale

[CobaltWolf]

@curtquarquesso I'll just keep that in mind from now on an include it in my work flow when I go back to edit parts from now on.

@Beale grr you're making my want to redo my fairing models...

Edited February 24, 2016 by CobaltWolf

[curtquarquesso]

4 minutes ago, Beale said:

With just the nosecone as a payload, the two stages almost make orbit (but the Pe was still below ground). The ISPs were "correct" (probably not) for Hydrogen Peroxide fuel, around 270. I'll probably increase them a little bit.
Anyway, the Waxwing is required going forward! I do still plan to use hoojiwana's model for that.

@curtquarquesso That would be amazing! No pressure though.

Wow. That peroxide flame is just amazing. Fantastic. It might even convince me to figure out how to create a custom RealPlume for it.

How did you end up doing the interstage for the Gamma-2?

What happened to the nifty diagonal stripe? I can see how it'd be a pain to texture to get it to line up, but it was really, really neat.

For anyone who hasn't seen the Waxwing, this is what it looks like at the moment: 

[hoojiwana]

2 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

For anyone who hasn't seen the Waxwing, this is what it looks like at the moment: 

I assume it'll be retextured to better fit the Tantares style?

[Beale]

50 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

Wow. That peroxide flame is just amazing. Fantastic. It might even convince me to figure out how to create a custom RealPlume for it.

How did you end up doing the interstage for the Gamma-2?

What happened to the nifty diagonal stripe? I can see how it'd be a pain to texture to get it to line up, but it was really, really neat.

Thanks!

Interstage, the "allowToggle" thing will be eventually fixed I think, so for now it is just two fairing modules on the part. (But, you can still end up with floating engine if you play around).

For the diagonal stripe - I just could not get it to look good, not sure how to approach it.

46 minutes ago, hoojiwana said:

I assume it'll be retextured to better fit the Tantares style?

Yarp!

[hoojiwana]

1 minute ago, Beale said:

Yarp!

Nice, it'll be good to see it have a proper home where it'll be loved and well cared for. And probably exploded once or twice.

These forum notifications are pretty neat too, it's nice to get a little poke when reading somewhere else.

 

[Beale]

17 minutes ago, hoojiwana said:

Nice, it'll be good to see it have a proper home where it'll be loved and well cared for. And probably exploded once or twice.

These forum notifications are pretty neat too, it's nice to get a little poke when reading somewhere else.

 

It will be treated well  

The notifications are very handy! 

 

Click to enlarge

Edited February 25, 2016 by Beale

[curtquarquesso]

14 minutes ago, Beale said:

Thanks!
Interstage, the "allowToggle" thing will be eventually fixed I think, so for now it is just two fairing modules on the part. (But, you can still end up with floating engine if you play around).
For the diagonal stripe - I just could not get it to look good, not sure how to approach it.

Yarp!

Something about the geometry is strange, and I can't put my finger on it. Something with the top doesn't quite make sense.
Also, some color would help. The gray-ness is starting to overwhelm.   How about instead of the original blue, a red color similar to the red you use on the arrows on the TLV decoupler?

How will staging work? I would think putting a decoupler between in and Prospero would make it too long.

 

 

[Beale]

8 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

Something about the geometry is strange, and I can't put my finger on it. Something with the top doesn't quite make sense.
Also, some color would help. The gray-ness is starting to overwhelm.   How about instead of the original blue, a red color similar to the red you use on the arrows on the TLV decoupler?

How will staging work? I would think putting a decoupler between in and Prospero would make it too long.

Red from Decoupler and Orange from tank-butte.

I'm not sure how the staging will happen, But, there looks to be a lot of empty space in the fairings (Plus an extended fairing base below Waxwing), shouldn't be a problem.

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Beale

[curtquarquesso]

9 minutes ago, Beale said:

Red from Decoupler and Orange from tank-butte.

I'm not sure how the staging will happen, But, there looks to be a lot of empty space in the fairings (Plus an extended fairing base below Waxwing), shouldn't be a problem.

Hmm. Red could be interesting... Darker maybe? 

Yeah. No worries about length then. I think it's just the top that weirds me out. I think it's the sidewall. I can't tell for sure, but it looks different. Hooj's model had a recess, so that the top of the stage matched the bottom in thickness. I think it looks like the bottom of the stage's sidewall is thing, and the top is all the sudden really thick. Hooj's solution was just to create a recess, and I think that looked pretty good.

Edited February 25, 2016 by curtquarquesso

[CobaltWolf]

25 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

Hmm. Red could be interesting... Darker maybe? 

Yeah. No worries about length then. I think it's just the top that weirds me out. I think it's the sidewall. I can't tell for sure, but it looks different. Hooj's model had a recess, so that the top of the stage matched the bottom in thickness. I think it looks like the bottom of the stage's sidewall is thing, and the top is all the sudden really thick. Hooj's solution was just to create a recess, and I think that looked pretty good.

I use color #a67777 for my red (Diamant stripe, GEM 40s, etc) in BDB.

[Beale]

13 hours ago, curtquarquesso said:

Hmm. Red could be interesting... Darker maybe? 

Yeah. No worries about length then. I think it's just the top that weirds me out. I think it's the sidewall. I can't tell for sure, but it looks different. Hooj's model had a recess, so that the top of the stage matched the bottom in thickness. I think it looks like the bottom of the stage's sidewall is thing, and the top is all the sudden really thick. Hooj's solution was just to create a recess, and I think that looked pretty good.

13 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I use color #a67777 for my red (Diamant stripe, GEM 40s, etc) in BDB.

I'll give the colour and interior a second look soon.

For now, it works  

I could barely reach orbit, needs a little ISP boost (keep in mind Prospero IRL was placed into quite a relatively high orbit).

For gameplay reason, the Waxwing is dual-mode: Thrust and Bleed.

In bleed mode, you essentially are venting fuel out of the side (I.E. no thrust).
The texture needs some port holes or something for this to make sense!

 

[Beale]

Black Arrow Beta

I really urge for help, because the new aerodynamics system - I can never get anything to fly correctly! 

What am I doing wrong!? 

Without fail, the rocket flips out of control.

[CobaltWolf]

2 hours ago, Beale said:

Black Arrow Beta

I really urge for help, because the new aerodynamics system - I can never get anything to fly correctly! 

What am I doing wrong!? 

Without fail, the rocket flips out of control.

See @VenomousRequiem, @Beale can't fly either!

[hraban]

Well,

all weights of NLV parts was far away from scale, also the thrust.

After reducing the weight of Gamma 8 and Gamma 2 engines to 1/8, reduce the thrust to 1/3 of real, rebalance the weight of WaxWing, the 2nd stage will no more flip over when the AoA is > 70 degrees.

Will spend more time for this small rocket's at weekend.