curtquarquesso Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Beale said: Black Arrow BetaI really urge for help, because the new aerodynamics system - I can never get anything to fly correctly! What am I doing wrong!? Without fail, the rocket flips out of control. Putting her through her paces now. I'm making sure to try it with other popular add-ons like FAR, DRE, etc... Making sure it handles relatively well under all circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjsnh Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 4 hours ago, Beale said: Black Arrow Beta I really urge for help, because the new aerodynamics system - I can never get anything to fly correctly! What am I doing wrong!? Without fail, the rocket flips out of control. I had similar problems with 1.0.5 , especially with the R-7 parts. I fixed the R-7 by increasing the bulge-tank's weight significantly, and/or by adding fins clipped into the lower body. Will try out the new NLV tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VenomousRequiem Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 What does NLV even stand for? :0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjsnh Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Three observations with the NLV beta : 1 - Seriously overpowered. Once I got the rocket flying straight, it had enough delta-v to put the prospero core on a trajectory almost right into the sun. 2 - Adding fins solved the flipping problems. I added four of the "winglet" fins and clipped them into the fuselage just above the bottom engine, and everything was fine. As mentioned in the other post, I solved this with the R-7 by making the bulge-tank heavier, not sure what would "fix" the issue in this case - maybe increase the weight of the top engine? 3 - The new fairing base is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, VenomousRequiem said: What does NLV even stand for? :0 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 24 minutes ago, tjsnh said: Three observations with the NLV beta : 1 - Seriously overpowered. Once I got the rocket flying straight, it had enough delta-v to put the prospero core on a trajectory almost right into the sun. 2 - Adding fins solved the flipping problems. I added four of the "winglet" fins and clipped them into the fuselage just above the bottom engine, and everything was fine. As mentioned in the other post, I solved this with the R-7 by making the bulge-tank heavier, not sure what would "fix" the issue in this case - maybe increase the weight of the top engine? 3 - The new fairing base is awesome. 1. Are we playing the same game ? Really I struggle to get it even into a small-small orbit (When it does fly straight). 2. Yep, that seems to unfortunately be the case for new aero, it's a shame when most real rockets don't have them. 3. Thanks! Edited February 26, 2016 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjsnh Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 24 minutes ago, Beale said: 1. Are we playing the same game ? Really I struggle to get it even into a small-small orbit (When it does fly straight) Straight up to 300 m/s , then over to 45degrees until about 1000m/s then horizontal 90degrees (still in first stage), and keep burning until all stages are out of fuel. Took my aps within 200 million km of the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakenex Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 On 2/23/2016 at 2:45 PM, Beale said: It is a little confusing! I think this picture best demonstrates what I am going for:All of these rockets should be able to be built using the parts. Hi Beale, always a pleasure to see your progress! I've lost the link to that website with all those rocket diagrams and illustrations, can you or someone share them? Big thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, Drakenex said: Hi Beale, always a pleasure to see your progress! I've lost the link to that website with all those rocket diagrams and illustrations, can you or someone share them? Big thanks in advance! http://andegraf.com/rockets/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakenex Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Thanks a lot CobaltWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hraban Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Hi Beale, i send you changed config-Files for NLV. Looks like Stock-Fairings can't manage the .9375m diameter. With Procedural-Fairings the NLV works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoclone09 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 1 hour ago, hraban said: Hi Beale, i send you changed config-Files for NLV. Looks like Stock-Fairings can't manage the .9375m diameter. With Procedural-Fairings the NLV works fine. @CobaltWolf has them in BDB, and they work fine, what is going on for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 5 minutes ago, legoclone09 said: @CobaltWolf has them in BDB, and they work fine, what is going on for you? There is definitely some strange behavior though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoclone09 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: There is definitely some strange behavior though. Like what? I haven't used them much, but they worked fine for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Just now, legoclone09 said: Like what? I haven't used them much, but they worked fine for me. There is some strangeness with how the stock fairings are built. It usually takes me a couple attempts to get it to follow the correct contour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legoclone09 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 1 minute ago, CobaltWolf said: There is some strangeness with how the stock fairings are built. It usually takes me a couple attempts to get it to follow the correct contour. Yes, I have noticed that. It ends up working for me, though. By the way, @Beale the Black Arrow or whatever it's called looks awesome and I can't wait for more 0.9375m parts in game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hraban Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: There is some strangeness with how the stock fairings are built. It usually takes me a couple attempts to get it to follow the correct contour. @CobaltWolf your .9375 Fairing works a little better then @Beale's with Black Knight. Will do my best to determine the significant parameters. Edited February 26, 2016 by hraban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, hraban said: @CobaltWolf your .9375 Fairing works a little better then @Beale's with Black Knight. Will check what parameters make the significant difference. Will do my best to determine the significant parameters. Alright. I really want to redesign my fairing bases to make them follow the 'guidelines' Curt laid down. Edited February 26, 2016 by CobaltWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneDruid Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I'm not following what was/is the issue, but i found that with snapThreshold = 0.05 the stock fairings are way better to handle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtquarquesso Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, tjsnh said: Three observations with the NLV beta : 1 - Seriously overpowered. Once I got the rocket flying straight, it had enough delta-v to put the prospero core on a trajectory almost right into the sun. 2 - Adding fins solved the flipping problems. I added four of the "winglet" fins and clipped them into the fuselage just above the bottom engine, and everything was fine. As mentioned in the other post, I solved this with the R-7 by making the bulge-tank heavier, not sure what would "fix" the issue in this case - maybe increase the weight of the top engine? 3 - The new fairing base is awesome. 20 hours ago, tjsnh said: Straight up to 300 m/s , then over to 45degrees until about 1000m/s then horizontal 90degrees (still in first stage), and keep burning until all stages are out of fuel. Took my aps within 200 million km of the sun. 21 hours ago, Beale said: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 1. Are we playing the same game ? Really I struggle to get it even into a small-small orbit (When it does fly straight). 2. Yep, that seems to unfortunately be the case for new aero, it's a shame when most real rockets don't have them. 3. Thanks! Ya'll are both doing something awfully wrong. @tjsnh, I could not for the life of me get that kind of performance out of it with stock Kerbin and atmosphere. While writing this, I recant my statement. I was indeed able to put it on a solar orbit. It's Waxwing and Prospero that are the problem. S1 and S2 are supposed to be capable of putting Waxwing and Prospero on a suborbital trajectory, with an apogee of about 150km-240km, and then Waxwing should be able to boost at apogee, and circularize. It should only have a few hundred m/s of delta-V, and it has roughly 1900 m/s. Prospero needs to be heavier, and Waxwing needs to carry less solid fuel. A stock Flea SRB motor scaled down to 0.625m as about 17.5 fuel units in it, so Prospero should probably get it's fuel cut by more than half. It has more than double what it should at the moment. It's thrust needs to be adjusted for about a 30s burn time. @Beale, I could get it to orbit without too much trouble. Must be your flying. I was able to get into an elliptical orbit of 240km by 500km or so, much like Prospero did. They actually managed to really sling that little guy out there. To balance it against stock, I built a stock replica of Black Arrow, that performs pretty similarly to the real deal. It's able to put it into a high elliptical orbit. As you can see, your fuel amounts are pretty spot on. Your big imbalance is thrust. It's unflyable, and inefficient with the thrusts you've set for it currently. To make it perform better, I limited: (S1) Gamma 8 to 50% thrust (S2) Gamma 2 to 25% thrust (S3) Waxwing to 25% thrust, reduced fuel to 10.00 out of the original 35.00. Tweak the fuel amounts, but I would just keep the tank capacities comparable to stock values. From there, tweak ISP and thrust. On the subject of flipping, any second stage will flip, if it is activated too low in atmosphere. Everything I built in stock flipped under 30km. The key is having the first stage last long enough to get the second stage higher. If the thrust on S1 is too high, you waste fuel due to aerodynamic forces, and you begin S2 too early, which reduces it's ISP, and makes it flip. It's about your S1 thrust levels, and your flying skills. What also helps, is the ullage motors I attached to the dual decouplers. They keep the thrust up between stages, and don't allow aero forces to overpower and flip it. Don't worry about this, just balance S1. With Waxwing, definitely balance close to a Flea SRB scaled at 0.625m to keep it balanced with stock, and then adjust ISP and burn time to get it to burn for about 30s. The sidewall thickness of the fairings needs to be reduced drastically. It's hard to fit Prospero in the fairings, because they keep wanting to stick to Prospero. I'm going to work on that module manager patch sometime soon here, to get the base model you have to work as a ProceduralFairing. I forgot how much I hate the stock fairing system. It's just so, so, sooooo nasty. Edited February 26, 2016 by curtquarquesso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Well, y'all inspired me to go back and look at my fairing bases... oh god... I hate having to open my old work because then I have to redo all of it. Not sure if I like the rim on 1.25m fairing base, might switch it back. 1st image: 1.25m fairing base on left, 1.25m decoupler on right. 2nd image: 0.625m decoupler, fairing, and the Able adapter fairing base 3rd image: 0.9375m fairing base on left, 0.9375m decoupler on right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) 22 hours ago, curtquarquesso said: (S1) Gamma 8 to 50% thrust (S2) Gamma 2 to 25% thrust (S3) Waxwing to 25% thrust, reduced fuel to 10.00 out of the original 35.00. Tweak the fuel amounts, but I would just keep the tank capacities comparable to stock values. From there, tweak ISP and thrust. Numbers feel much better to fly, but: 10 seconds into the flight. It's incredibly frustrating! Every single rocket I make seems to fly like this, make me want to rage-quit KSP for good! Just to clarify: Very gentle turning over, slowly pressing D. New thrust numbers. Stock fairings. Edited February 27, 2016 by Beale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Wow @Beale, making me come running for nothing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beale Posted February 27, 2016 Author Share Posted February 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said: Wow @Beale, making me come running for nothing... Whoops! Old-age memory I meant to say, they look great! especially the third image. More struggle: Same problems with Proc fairings. I cannot get high enough with the first stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Just throwing this out there.... how about an "invisible" fin part, to add aerodynamic stability down low without mucking up the aesthetics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobaltWolf Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CatastrophicFailure said: Just throwing this out there.... how about an "invisible" fin part, to add aerodynamic stability down low without mucking up the aesthetics? I think the better answer would be to find the actual issue rather than trying to hack together a solution. @Beale try increasing the gimbal of the engines by a degree or two - it's still a band-aid but it will make them more forgiving. Past that, try and lower the weight and ISP of the first stage engine slightly. I can't say that I have this sort of issue in BDB, except for Atlas which is temperamental and is being looked into soon. EDIT: OK, so I am a horrible pilot but asides from that... Edited February 27, 2016 by CobaltWolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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