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[1.x+] Community Resource Pack

RoverDude

By RoverDude
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Spodershibe

Spodershibe

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

I would check with the relevant mods.  CRP is just a bunch of resource definitions.

I believe it might be one of my ship mods. For the time being, I went through all the configs for my boat mods and renamed the water resource to ballastwater

Maybe this will help

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ShotgunNinja

ShotgunNinja

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, majNUN said:

A place where I can see a list of resources?

All resources are defined inside CommonResources.cfg. Anyway, here is a list:

Spoiler 

Hydrates
Gypsum
IntakeLqd  //Like IntakeAtm but for oceans
Lead
CarbonDioxide
Chemicals
Dirt
ExoticMinerals
Food
Supplies
Fertilizer
Mulch
Machinery
SpecializedParts
Recyclables
Hydrogen
Karbonite
Karborundum
LqdCO2
LqdCO
MaterialKits
Metals
Minerals
MetallicOre
Organics
Oxygen
Polymers
RareMetals
Rock
RocketParts
SpareParts
Substrate
Uraninite
Waste
WasteWater
Water
ArgonGas // Common electric engine propellant
Boron
DepletedUranium // Depleted fuel to preserve mass when burned, can be recycled
EnrichedUranium // Nuclear fuel
LqdHydrogen // General propellant, used for high thrust electric engines
StoredCharge // Capacitor resource. Translates to Ec
Actinides
Aluminium
Alumina
Antimatter
Carbon
ChargedParticles
DepletedFuel
ExoticMatter
Fluorine
IntakeAtm
KryptonGas
NeonGas
Lithium
Lithium6
LqdAmmonia
LqdDeuterium
Helium3
LqdHe3
LqdHelium
LqdTritium
LqdNitrogen
Megajoules
Monazite
Plutonium-238
UF4
ThF4
ThermalPower
UraniumNitride
VacuumPlasma
WasteHeat
Aerozine50
AK20
AK27
Aniline
AvGas
CaveaB
ClF3
ClF5
Diborane
Ethane
Ethanol
Ethanol75
Ethanol90
Ethylene
FLOX30
FLOX70
FLOX88
Furfuryl
Helium
HNIW
HTP
HTPB
Hydrazine
Hydyne
IRFNA-III
IRFNA-IV
IWFNA
Kerosene
LeadBallast
LqdFluorine
LqdMethane
LqdOxygen
Methane
Methanol
MMH
MON1
MON3
MON10
MON15
MON20
MON25
NGNC
N2F4
Nitrogen
NitrousOxide
NTO
OF2
PBAN
Pentaborane
PSPC
Syntin
TEATEB
Tonka250
Tonka500
UDMH
UH25
Glykerol

 

 

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Nertea

Nertea

Posted
Posted

I have a number of changes to propose for a 1.2-era update. Since I don't really own any of these definitions besides ArgonGas, these are merely proposals. 

1. Regularize the distribution of certain resources

  • Authoritatively define some key Atmospheric Resources, ie. on which planets they are guaranteed to be present. 
    • ArgonGas [NFT]: define presence on stock planet atmospheres
    • XenonGas [stock]: define presence on stock planet atmospheres
    • Tritium [KSPI]: define presence on stock planet atmospheres and oceans
    • Deuterium [KSPI]: define presence on stock planet atmospheres and oceans
    • He3 [KSPI]: define presence in stock planet atmospheres, space, oceans and regolith
    • Antimatter [KSPI]: define presence in stock planet space

The primary justification for this is to make things more predictable on certain planets so they can be used as refuelling targets reliably. I would still have randomness of abundance so some discovery is required. 

If this goes through I'd like to open a discussion on what we would put where by default. 

I do not anticipate huge problems with messing with the distribution of these resources, because as far as I know, KSPI still mostly uses ORS to do extraction of resources. These stock distributions would therefore exist alongside the KSPI distributions without conflict. Please comment on this @FreeThinker, if you have any objections.

2. Propose alterations to the cost of a few resources

I'd also like to open a discussion on the cost of fusion fuel resources. CRP (and KSPI) defines the He3 cost as 525f/unit and the Tritium cost as 188f/unit. This is possibly too much. For reference, Deuterium is defined as 0.256f/unit and standard LH2 is 0.03675f/unit. I recognize that this is a realism thing and that these costs would represent current costs. However....

This starts to create problems when balancing engines and such. If I have a D-T engine with a +50% performance benefit over D-D, the fuel cost goes up 1000x. The cost certainly outweighs the benefit, and without providing a ridiculous benefit, that creates a balance issue that cannot easily be solved. The 'canonical' reason for this is to encourage off-planet mining, and that's cool, but kinda makes hash of mods that don't want to deal heavily with that. I'd like to propose some reduction in the scaling perhaps by 10x. With He3 at 50f/unit and T3 at 10f/unit, the cost penalty for the above scenario (D-T) is only a 50x cost increase or a (D-He3) 250x cost increase. This still strongly incentivizes off-planet extraction but doesn't make it prohibitive to launch with these. 

Again, feel free to comment here, particularly @FreeThinker but anyone else too :P. 

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Nertea

Nertea

Posted
Posted (edited)

Ok, I'm going to assume everything is totally fine then :P

Proposed fixed-location atmospheric/exoatmospheric resource distributions:

  • XenonGas
    • Kerbin: very low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna: very low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium concentration
    • Laythe: ?
  • ArgonGas
    • Kerbin: low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna:  low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium atmospheric concentration
    • Eve: low atmospheric concentration
    • Laythe: ?
  • Helium-3
    • Kerbin: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium atmospheric concentration
    • Eve: extremely low atmospheric concentration
  • Deuterium
    • Kerbin: medium water concentration
    • Jool: low atmospheric concentration
    • Laythe: medium water concentation
    • Everywhere in space at extremely low concentrations
  • Tritium (I'm more or less assuming that any atmosphere that contains a decent amount N2 can have infrequent production from cosmic rays)
    • Kerbin: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna: extremely low atmospheric concentration
  • Antimatter
    • Jool: low space concentrations
    • Kerbin: very low space concentrations
    • Laythe: very low space concentrations
  • Hydrogen:
    • Everywhere in space at extremely low concentrations

Proposed cost alterations

  • Tritium -> 18.0f/unit
  • He3 -> 52.5f/unit

If nobody has any problems I'll make a PR in the next week.

Edited by Nertea
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Nertea

Nertea

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Angel-125 said:

@Nertea Maybe Helium-3 should also exist in the crusts of airless moons so that it can be mined..

This is a good point, I'll mention that I'm only listing things for parts that I intend to develop. Other people might chime in for such uses, so that's good. I also haven't properly educated myself on the specification for crustal resources yet. 

Edited by Nertea
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think we also should start a discussion about the Minable resources in CRP

I would like to start with the resource Uraninite

Currently is has the following definition 

GLOBAL_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Uraninite
	ResourceType = 0
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 70
		MinAbundance = .001
		MaxAbundance = 10
		Variance = 50
		Dispersal = 3
	}
}
PLANETARY_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Uraninite
	ResourceType = 0
	PlanetName = Kerbin
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 100
		MinAbundance = .001
		MaxAbundance = 10
		Variance = 50
		Dispersal = 3
	}
}

I think the global percentage is way too high and need to  drastically be reduced as Uraninite isn't exactly very common in the universe.

5 hours ago, Nertea said:

Ok, I'm going to assume everything is totally fine then :P

Proposed fixed-location atmospheric/exoatmospheric resource distributions:

  • XenonGas
    • Kerbin: very low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna: very low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium concentration
    • Laythe: ?
  • ArgonGas
    • Kerbin: low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna:  low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium atmospheric concentration
    • Eve: low atmospheric concentration
    • Laythe: ?
  • Helium-3
    • Kerbin: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: medium atmospheric concentration
    • Eve: extremely low atmospheric concentration
  • Deuterium
    • Kerbin: medium water concentration
    • Jool: low atmospheric concentration
    • Laythe: medium water concentation
    • Everywhere in space at extremely low concentrations
  • Tritium (I'm more or less assuming that any atmosphere that contains a decent amount N2 can have infrequent production from cosmic rays)
    • Kerbin: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Jool: extremely low atmospheric concentration
    • Duna: extremely low atmospheric concentration
  • Antimatter
    • Jool: low space concentrations
    • Kerbin: very low space concentrations
    • Laythe: very low space concentrations
  • Hydrogen:
    • Everywhere in space at extremely low concentrations

Proposed cost alterations

  • Tritium -> 18.0f/unit
  • He3 -> 52.5f/unit

If nobody has any problems I'll make a PR in the next week.

Sorry for my delayed reaction, but I'm strongly opposed of finding Helium-3, Deuterium and Tritium in the atmosphere of either Kerbin or Eve, simply because their equivalent counterparts, do not have any measurable amounts of it in their atmosphere. Besides realism, it would also break KSPI game-play, as it would allow players to simply gather these precious resource from th atmosphere without any real effort, which is against KSPI design goals which tries to motivate player to find these precious resources in deep space, in the atmosphere of icy Gas Giants

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)

Regarding Antimatter, you should not be able to find it in any atmosphere. Instead should only be harvest-able in space in the van Allan belts of planets. I'm not sure if Stock supports it, but collecting it in the SIO of planets with strong magnetic fields(which could be a random factor) could  be a requirement to allow harvesting of antimatter in space. The stronger the magnetic field, and closer to the sun, the more antimatter could be available. I'm not sure about this, but I think it also important is that the amount of antimatter should be exhaustible. Hopefully @RoverDude  can tell us if this feature is fixed in KSP 1.2

Edit: perhaps we could use something like the following definition for Antimatter harvesting 

PLANETARY_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Antimatter
	ResourceType = 3
	PlanetName = Kerbin
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 100
		MinAbundance = 0.1
		MaxAbundance = 0.1
		MinAltitude = 3000
		MaxAltitude = 3000
		MinRange = 5
		MaxRange = 5
		Variance = 50
	}
}

PLANETARY_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Antimatter
	ResourceType = 3
	PlanetName = Kerbin
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 100
		MinAbundance = 0.1
		MaxAbundance = 0.1
		MinAltitude = 6000
		MaxAltitude = 6000
		MinRange = 10
		MaxRange = 10
		Variance = 50
	}
}

 

Edited by FreeThinker
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Nertea

Nertea

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Sorry for my delayed reaction, but I'm strongly opposed of finding Helium-3, Deuterium and Tritium in the atmosphere of either Kerbin or Eve, simply because their equivalent counterparts, do not have any measurable amounts of it in their atmosphere. Besides realism, it would also break KSPI game-play, as it would allow players to simply gather these precious resource from th atmosphere without any real effort, which is against KSPI design goals which tries to motivate player to find these precious resources in deep space, in the atmosphere of icy Gas Giants

I've noted Deuterium as an oceanic resource only on Kerbin :wink:. Let me break down my assumptions for the others

He3:

Quote

3He is also present in the Earth's atmosphere. The natural abundance of 3He in naturally occurring helium gas is 1.38×10−6 (1.38 parts per million). 

It's actually more common than Xenon, believe it or not. Would just be harder to fractionally distill. Similar situation for Venus (Eve proxy), which is where that occurs.

Tritium

The primary mechanism for tritium formation naturally is cosmic ray bombardment of N2. Any atmosphere that contains a lot of N2 is going to have traces of tritium in it.

Balance-wise, here's the thing. You only extract these materials if you provide an extraction method, so don't provide an extraction method for that in KSPI. Problem solved. Other people are then free to use the stock system to do extraction, and if they install that mod with KSPI, they need to understand that relationship (or you can kill my extraction part with MM).

 

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Nansuchao

Nansuchao

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, FreeThinker said:

Regarding Antimatter, you should not be able to find it in any atmosphere. Instead should only be harvest-able in space in the van Allan belts of planets. I'm not sure if Stock supports it, but collecting it in the SIO of planets with strong magnetic fields be a requirement to allow harvesting of antimatter in space. The stronger the magnetic field, and closer to the sun, the more antimatter could be available. I'm not sure about this, but I think it also important is that the amount of antimatter should be exhaustible. Hopefully @RoverDude  can tell us if this feature is fixed in KSP 1.2

A kind of integration of Antimatter in CRP would be very useful to be able to mine it also in non stock planet, that is a great gameplay limitation right now.

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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)

Regarding Xenon gas, I do not have strong objections but I still think we should try to take note of realistic concentrations of Xenon gas in our solar system:

Earth abundance =     0.000000087

Mars abundance =      0.00000008

Jupiter: abundance  =  0.0000000051 ( which is significantly lower than earth/mars)

 

 

13 hours ago, Nertea said:

I've noted Deuterium as an oceanic resource only on Kerbin :wink:. Let me break down my assumptions for the others

Ah yes, Deuterium  in the sea is of course valid. Notice there is an alternative, instead of making Deteurium available directly from Oceans, you could make use of an intermediate resource Salt Water . Salt Water contains a whole range of very useful trace elements among them Deuterium and Lithium.  The Advantage of using intermediate resource is that it limits the amount of direct mining/scanning resources and improves realism

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nertea said:

It's actually more common than Xenon, believe it or not. Would just be harder to fractionally distill. Similar situation for Venus (Eve proxy), which is where that occurs

 

Yes but that's not the whole story:

Quote

3He is also present in the Earth's atmosphere. The natural abundance of 3He in naturally occurring helium gas is 1.38×10−6 (1.38 parts per million). The partial pressure of helium in the Earth's atmosphere is about 0.52 Pa, and thus helium accounts for 5.2 parts per million of the total pressure (101325 Pa) in the Earth's atmosphere, and 3He thus accounts for 7.2 parts per trillion of the atmosphere

Also note that even with current very high prices for Helium3, due to the combination it's extreme low liquid state temperature and low very abundance, it's not practical to collect significant amount from earths atmosphere.

The only feasible terrestrial method of collecting helium3 is from rare exhaustible helium gas pockets, which can contain up to 1/13 Helium-3. This would at least motivate players to start deep core mining operations at rare gas pockets and mine limited amounts of helium3

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Nertea said:

Tritium

 

The primary mechanism for tritium formation naturally is cosmic ray bombardment of N2. Any atmosphere that contains a lot of N2 is going to have traces of tritium in it.

I know but Tritium atmospheric  occurrence is even lower due  to a 13 year half life. Unless there has been recent major nuclear surface testing or nuclear wars or nuclear melt downs, tritium is extremely hard to collect from the atmosphere. Realistically you only source of Tritium is fission/fusion reactors

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 14-9-2016 at 7:37 PM, Nertea said:

@FreeThinker

I'd also like to open a discussion on the cost of fusion fuel resources. CRP (and KSPI) defines the He3 cost as 525f/unit and the Tritium cost as 188f/unit. This is possibly too much. For reference, Deuterium is defined as 0.256f/unit and standard LH2 is 0.03675f/unit. I recognize that this is a realism thing and that these costs would represent current costs. However....

This starts to create problems when balancing engines and such. If I have a D-T engine with a +50% performance benefit over D-D, the fuel cost goes up 1000x. The cost certainly outweighs the benefit, and without providing a ridiculous benefit, that creates a balance issue that cannot easily be solved. The 'canonical' reason for this is to encourage off-planet mining, and that's cool, but kinda makes hash of mods that don't want to deal heavily with that. I'd like to propose some reduction in the scaling perhaps by 10x. With He3 at 50f/unit and T3 at 10f/unit, the cost penalty for the above scenario (D-T) is only a 50x cost increase or a (D-He3) 250x cost increase. This still strongly incentivizes off-planet extraction but doesn't make it prohibitive to launch with these. 

Again, feel free to comment here, particularly @FreeThinker but anyone else too :P. 

Well, perhaps in a world where it's inhabitants are not paranoid about Nuclear reactors, and don't waste their stock piles of Tritium on the production of Nuclear weapons, there would actually be more Helium3 available than Tritium. Still the cost Helium3 would be strongly linked to the production cost of Tritium. Because Cost of Tritium is also inflated I will agree will you that lowering Tritium/Helium3  to 50f/unit is  justifiable.

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Angel-125 said:

@Nertea Maybe Helium-3 should also exist in the crusts of airless moons so that it can be mined..

Well the problem with Mining Helium3 directly from the surface is that the Stock Resource system doesn't realy support low concentration very well, Any value lower than 0.1% is rounded down 0%. Therefore I would propose to use intermediate resource like abstract resource called Solarwind Regolith which which is mined in measurable amount and then converted into use resources including Helium3. Solarwind Regolith mostly consist out of Hydrogen and Helium 4  atoms, but also trace amount like nitrogen, from this even a smaller fraction  consists out of Helium 3. The first step require very large amount of Regolith, which needs to be heated to high temperatures before it's useful content can be released.

(Note that I have already implemented this as a MM script in KSPI, but I wanted to start a discussion before integrating it into CRP)

 

18 hours ago, Nertea said:

Proposed cost alterations

  • Tritium -> 18.0f/unit
  • He3 -> 52.5f/unit

Sounds acceptable to me, I have make the necessary pull request

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Nertea said:
  • Hydrogen:
    • Everywhere in space at extremely low concentrations

In general, yes but the big exception would be the atmospheres Gas Planets mainly consist out of free Hydrogen Gas. But on terrestrial planets, I would not allow it to be mined directly, instead Hydrogen should only be accesable after processing intermediate minable resources

Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Nansuchao said:

A kind of integration of Antimatter in CRP would be very useful to be able to mine it also in non stock planet, that is a great gameplay limitation right now.

Well I agree that a merge generic definition would be welcome.

 

I defined 2 belts (and inner and outer radiation belt) at around 3000 km and 6000 km with a 95% and 80% likelihood with a lot of variance .

350px--Van_Allen_Belts.ogv.jpg

I'm not sure if this is going to work, perhaps @RoverDude could provide us of more explanation/documentation

  

PLANETARY_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Antimatter
	ResourceType = 3
	PlanetName = Kerbin
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 95
		MinAbundance = 0.1
		MaxAbundance = 0.2
		MinAltitude = 2500
		MaxAltitude = 3500
		MinRange = 5
		MaxRange = 10
		Variance = 50
	}
}

PLANETARY_RESOURCE
{
	ResourceName = Antimatter
	ResourceType = 3
	PlanetName = Kerbin
	
	Distribution
	{
		PresenceChance = 80
		MinAbundance = 0.01
		MaxAbundance = 0.2
		MinAltitude = 5500
		MaxAltitude = 6500
		MinRange = 10
		MaxRange = 20
		Variance = 50
	}
}
Edited by FreeThinker
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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)

Problem remains that the stock resource system is bad in representing very low concentrations like antimatter, a method around this limitation would again to use some intermediate resource, which would first need to be processed. A resource called  EnergenicChargedParticles, could be harvested directly from space, but would be concentrated in planetary magnetic fields and converted into many elementary atomic particle including antimatter

Edited by FreeThinker
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Nansuchao

Nansuchao

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Problem remains that the stock resource system is bad in representing very low concentrations like antimatter, a method around this limitation would again to use some intermediate resource, which would first need to be processed. A resource called  EnergenicChargedParticles, could be harvested directly from space, but would be concentrated in planetary magnetic fields and converted into many elementary atomic particle including antimatter

Probably something like a Solar Sail would be perfect for this job.

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Nertea

Nertea

Posted
Posted

Intermediate resource is off the table for me, I'm not interested in making a production chain. Would it not work to just give an extractor a very low efficiency? 0.01 concentration with 0.01 efficiency should produce, for example, a rate of 0.0001, and that's really all you're going for with low concentration is a low rate, right? And we are sure that the rounded concentrations are not just a UI thing? @RoverDude, thoughts?

17 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

I know but Tritium atmospheric  occurrence is even lower due  to a 13 year half life. Unless there has been recent major nuclear surface testing or nuclear wars or nuclear melt downs, tritium is extremely hard to collect from the atmosphere. Realistically you only source of Tritium is fission/fusion reactors

Atmospheric occurrence is low, but production is constant. 

6 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

In general, yes but the big exception would be the atmospheres Gas Planets mainly consist out of free Hydrogen Gas. But on terrestrial planets, I would not allow it to be mined directly, instead Hydrogen should only be accesable after processing intermediate minable resources

Yeah, I'm talking about in space. 

6 hours ago, FreeThinker said:

Sounds acceptable to me, I have make the necessary pull request

Great!

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FreeThinker

FreeThinker

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nertea said:

Intermediate resource is off the table for me, I'm not interested in making a production chain. Would it not work to just give an extractor a very low efficiency? 0.01 concentration with 0.01 efficiency should produce, for example, a rate of 0.0001, and that's really all you're going for with low concentration is a low rate, right? And we are sure that the rounded concentrations are not just a UI thing? @RoverDude, thoughts?

Well I think you should reconsider. Realistically if your go mining for Helium3 on the mun/moon or other object without an atmosphere , you are not going to discard any rare molecules like Hydrogen, Water, CO2, Methane, Nitrogen and even Helium you find in the process, they will be very valuable for your overall mining operation (both for propulsion and life support).

 

lpaE1Ah.png

Splitting up all these resource into separate mine-able resources would create weird discrepancies, which specially becomes an issue when you start to have depletable mining.

Edited by FreeThinker
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Northstar1989

Northstar1989

Posted
Posted (edited)
On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 7:03 PM, FreeThinker said:

I'm not sure about this, but I think it also important is that the amount of antimatter should be exhaustible.  

 

Antimatter should not be exhaustible.  First of all, it's very spread out, and virtually impossible you could harvest it all.  Second, it naturally replenishes over time.  I think I read the entire antimatter population of the Van Allen belts is replaced once every 16-32 years?  (depending on solar wind conditions dyring those decades)  That's not a fast rate, but it *is* on a timescale that's relevant to KSP, especially when players are conducting multi-year missions to Eeelo and Jool...

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited by Northstar1989
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