0.90 Kerbal Weather Systems! Alpha 0.5.3 WIP! (Jan 2)

[silverfox8124]

23 minutes ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

I'm running KSP with a minor kopernicus tweak.  I've rescaled my kerbin atmosphere to be 100 km like Earth, instead of 70 km.  To include static pressure altitude.

Is the simulation built to handle that kind of alteration to the basic parameters?  For the rescaling, all it was, was:: {[OLD ALTITUDE] * (10/7)}  ::formula to change out the curves to match the new scale.  Took a while since I had to tune about 30 temp and pressure values by hand.

I know there's a lot of density and energy math that goes into making the weather sim work, so I'm expecting that the alteration to the base atmosphere of kerbin would result in a complete readjustment of the total energy in the system from the additional atmospheric matter volume/mass alone.  Change in total energy of course meaning that I would expect scalars to alter.

Yes, the sim can handle changes, but don't expect it to be as easy as one might think. Also the sim itself isn't fully complete, and we are mainly focusing on the aspects of kerbin and earth. There is a few things you would have to change, and all the stuff the sim takes in is under the BodyData folder and then under the planet you want to tweak. Again, there are only certain things you can tweak currently. But for now, that feature is mainly a focus of KWS 2.0+.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

2 hours ago, silverfox8124 said:

Yes, the sim can handle changes, but don't expect it to be as easy as one might think. Also the sim itself isn't fully complete, and we are mainly focusing on the aspects of kerbin and earth. There is a few things you would have to change, and all the stuff the sim takes in is under the BodyData folder and then under the planet you want to tweak. Again, there are only certain things you can tweak currently. But for now, that feature is mainly a focus of KWS 2.0+.

 

No worries.  Just curious if 'modularization' was being engineered into concept.  I want to get this once it becomes presentable, but I wanted to know if playing with a 1.4x atmosphere compared to stock was going to wreak havoc. 

 

It does look, however, like you're getting close to what could constitute a milestone basic test release.  The wind systems in the screenshots look genuine, and I honestly can't wait to see how the cloud and precip simulation comes in once its ready for those milestones.  (I am assuming that basic core energy circulation and wind simulation is one milestone, cloud patterns are milestone 2, precip is milestone 3, and things like icing, hail, and other extreme adverse conditions would be mop-up duty.)

[silverfox8124]

2 hours ago, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

 

No worries.  Just curious if 'modularization' was being engineered into concept.  I want to get this once it becomes presentable, but I wanted to know if playing with a 1.4x atmosphere compared to stock was going to wreak havoc. 

 

It does look, however, like you're getting close to what could constitute a milestone basic test release.  The wind systems in the screenshots look genuine, and I honestly can't wait to see how the cloud and precip simulation comes in once its ready for those milestones.  (I am assuming that basic core energy circulation and wind simulation is one milestone, cloud patterns are milestone 2, precip is milestone 3, and things like icing, hail, and other extreme adverse conditions would be mop-up duty.)

Yes, working with 1.4x atmosphere will screw with things for now, I also don't know what exactly you're changing and if you're changing what you need to be changing and if things are updated properly because of it. However, that's a discussion for another time.

 

Dev notes for the day: From the testing I've been doing there are some geometry issues we have to work around that are causing weird anomalies to arise. Ontop of this, we are still having wind issues, as this son of a poodle is a monster to tackle, and constantly giving problems. However, we should be able to get this bug free eventually...hopefully.

 

Very Soon(tm)

[diomedea]

On 19/6/2016 at 5:53 PM, AdmiralTigerclaw said:

I'm running KSP with a minor kopernicus tweak.  I've rescaled my kerbin atmosphere to be 100 km like Earth, instead of 70 km.  To include static pressure altitude.

Is the simulation built to handle that kind of alteration to the basic parameters? ...

If the rescaling follows the barometric formula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometric_formula), it would take just one adjusted parameter in the simulation to handle that. That parameter is Scale Height Factor (SHF = Universal Gas Constant / Atmospheric molar mass / gravity), a value that multiplied by Temperature at any altitude gives ScaleHeight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_height). Static pressure in the simulation is computed according to U.S. Standard Atmosphere 1976 (meaning, temperature samples at different altitudes are used, ScaleHeight is variable and pressure changes with each altitude level are cumulative).

To adapt as best possible to the pressure curve with KSP bodies, we already have to use SHF values 'slightly' different that the natural ones (e.g., with Kerbin, 'natural' SHF = 8.3144621 / 0.0289644 / 9.81 = 29.26177; but a value of 26.403 best matches the pressure curve). Eve's pressure curve is the most distant from what its peculiar molar mass and gravity would give (natural SHF = 19.71719; adjusted 43.3778; most of Eve's atmosphere would be compressed in the very first Km from the surface if the natural SHF had been used).

Running the simulation with different, non-standard bodies, is already possible in theory, all it takes are a few config files holding the body fundamental values. SHF is one of them.

All that said, it follows that the simulator doesn't care at all about the coded pressure curve, and won't be able to adapt to any curve not following the barometric formula.

[Fengist]

So I've been kinda watching this mod for some time. I have somewhat of an interest is what you're doing.  However, two issues strike me as being unsuitable for what I'm hoping to accomplish.

1. Clickable weather.  I would prefer for my purposes that weather not be controllable by the end user (for the same reason I don't use MechJeb any more, it's not fun.)

2. FAR - I have this thing about dependencies on other mods. I avoid it where possible.

Any plans to change those two facts or should I strike out on my own?

How much am I thinking about weather?

[silverfox8124]

@Fengist

1) At no point in the sim is the weather controlled by us. It is dictated by natural law.

2)Far dependancy shouldn't come as mandatory for the next release

That was rather easy. Nice looking boat you got there. I wonder how well it'll react with the sim's wind. It'll be interesting to model however...

"How much am I thinking about weather?" Well idk, how much are you thinking about weather?

Edited June 30, 2016 by silverfox8124

[Fengist]

Thanks@silverfox8124. I shall eagerly anticipate the next release.  TBH, I haven't downloaded your mod, I was going from the screenshot in the OP.  It appeared that weather was something the user could adjust and control, which kinda defeats the purpose (and thrill) of sailing. If you end up in a hurricane and you click a button to make it go away, well, it just doesn't sound fun. And I've never been a fan of FAR and even less a fan of Better Buoyancy.

The next big question is... 64 bit.  Any plans on getting over that hurdle?  I know now I'm pretty much running exclusively on 64 bit.

One of the reasons I made the Maritime Pack was to sail.  A long time ago, I built a square rigged ship with the Steampunk Mod.  His sails are basically solar panels that create thrust instead of charging batteries.  They work but you always have to have the sun at your back.  The plan I've been considering is rather basic.  A collection of lat's and long's in a list with basic wind conditions.  Local wind direction and force would be a matter of comparing 3 of the closest.  Each of the sails gets a rigidbody attached in the OnStartup to a transform.  In the FixedUpdate, the local wind's vector3 and force are applied to that rigidbody.  Each sail will have a 'sail area' and depending on how far the user has the sail unfurled (animation), that determines what percentage of that force is applied to each.

It basically allows for different sail types (square vs triangular) to have their shape determine which direction they produce thrust and, depending on the angle to the wind, produce more or less.  And like a real sailing vessel, you lower or raise your sails to stop or go.   If I can pull this off, it should closely mimic real sailing, down to the point of taking a knockdown when you turn your sailboat the wrong way in a gale. Looking briefly at your API, getting wind info would be pretty simple.  And your mod will solve another problem.  I was only planning on sailing on water.  Eventually, someone is going to ask for this:

.

[Fengist]

Do you have a working download link of a compiled .dll?  The two in the OP are busted.  I downloaded the source from GitHub but you're using references to proto-buff and GeoGrid and not sure which of those you're using or if you've made changes to the GeoGrid.

[silverfox8124]

2 hours ago, Fengist said:

Do you have a working download link of a compiled .dll?  The two in the OP are busted.  I downloaded the source from GitHub but you're using references to proto-buff and GeoGrid and not sure which of those you're using or if you've made changes to the GeoGrid.

No, I do not recommend any attempt at compiling what we have. not only do we not have any weather effects showing, it isn't guaranteed to work, nor does it right now. Again, don't compile and run. Wait until a release.

[quarrion]

Hello guys, we haven't heard from you for a long time - any dev update? I've just finished my studies and now I have way more time - I could help a bit with testing if needed. Awesome work so far, keep it up!

[silverfox8124]

I've been a bit busy on my end, and motivation to do much is lacking in my life. I don't need testers just yet. If anything we need more knowledge and expertise on the team.

[Tortoise]

It would be nice to see this mod come alive.

[silverfox8124]

On 10/8/2016 at 8:56 PM, Tortoise said:

It would be nice to see this mod come alive.

Yes, it would be nice, but I'm afraid I just dont have the time and motivation to put into testing it anymore. I'm in college trying to get above 90 average, it takes a lot of my time, and right now I'm the only one working on this project. Like I said before, we need more expertise on the team before we can continue it further.

[colmo]

16 hours ago, silverfox8124 said:

Yes, it would be nice, but I'm afraid I just dont have the time and motivation to put into testing it anymore. I'm in college trying to get above 90 average, it takes a lot of my time, and right now I'm the only one working on this project. Like I said before, we need more expertise on the team before we can continue it further.

Life comes first. As a watcher of mods, I've learned patience.

On the matter of expertise, what kind do you need? I may know someone, or might know myself.

[Grease1991]

On 10/16/2016 at 7:17 AM, colmo said:

I may know someone, or might know myself.

thats deep man.

[Wolfair corp.]

Kep it up, @silverfox8124! I wish to see an update one day.

Also, I just tried it, and your mod seems to not work on version 0.90:

Edited November 11, 2016 by Wolfair corp.

[silverfox8124]

@colmo an experienced meteorologist. Someone who knows the weather system in and out and can provide accurate laws and physics from which to base on, such that no inaccuracies in law are introduced (inaccuracies due to scope and computation power are allowed however).

@Wolfair corp. I'm sorry but I don't really support 0.90 installs, it is too cumbersome and outdated to test for and debug, especially since I dont have the code from that time. I cannot help you, I am sorry.

 

Sorry guys that I've been on hiatus, and leave for awhile, it is still rather time consuming to test and develop for this mod without any greater knowledge on meteorology than my own.

I do however greatly appreciate your patience and desire for this mod, it is heartwarming to see. Thank you all.

Edited November 6, 2016 by silverfox8124

[Wolfair corp.]

No problem, I was just testing.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Wolfair corp.

[Wolfair corp.]

@silverfox8124

There is now a mod for wind that is working on 1.2.2

You can focus now on weather (Snow rain, etc). If you are sill alive.

Rain and snow can just simply be FX that emanate from clouds. There is already some clouds mods for KSP.

When there is clouds, one time on 10 there is rain or snow, depending on the season (Snow 10 month on 66)

Good luck!

Edited December 14, 2016 by Wolfair corp.

[silverfox8124]

@Wolfair corp.

That Kerbal Wind mod was a pure port, almost copy paste from original code.

 

The graphic effects of weather are my weakpoint, I do not do graphics and I don't know how to do it. If anything, now that I have time off from school, I can focus some time to rebooting KWS, since we talked a lot about gas laws in chem, it sort of reignited the spark a bit and gave me a new perspective on how this can be done. I just have to lay out some more planning and foundation for all the equations I'll use.

What makes this harder than normal is getting all the interactions right, and to prevent diverging series of events such that they go helplessly out of control. I will make an attempt at rebooting, see how far my new mentality can go.

 

~SilverFox8124

[smokytehbear]

Hey silverfox, the idea still alive in there somewhere? Don't know what you need help with graphically but I can give it a shot if you're still looking for an extra hand. Would rather not see this concept die. Let me know if you're still interested in some extra helpers.

[Azimech]

Are graphics really needed? There are mods which produce clouds (EVE and a few others) so the main focus could be just wind. And maybe the occasional thunderstorm.

[Wolfair corp.]

8 hours ago, Azimech said:

 occasional thunderstorm.

And rain, and snow, etc.

Arent theses graphical work?

[Azimech]

31 minutes ago, Wolfair corp. said:

And rain, and snow, etc.

Arent theses graphical work?

True ... rain and snow would be purely visuals while I can imagine more people are interested in having wind.

So I'd focus on the wind first, add graphics & sound later.

By the way, if the day ever comes sound could be added, I wouldn't mind creating a few samples.

 

 

[DarkOwl57]

oooohhhhh Weather! You've got me interested! If we do add weather, I think that the whole rain, snow, thunderstorm, etc. thing could be super cool! (But what about say.... a hurricane?)