What gender are the Kerbals we see in the game?

[comham]

They're all men, because A) Male is our society's view of a neutral, default gender (see stickmen diagrams on toilet doors, men are a simple stickman, women are stickmen with a dress, this is not generally considered a controversial idea even if it is new to you), kerbals are cartoon humans and there's no reason Squad would be exempt from thinking this way if they weren't specifically trying to avoid it, and KSP is themed after the 60's space race, when most astronauts were men.

[Holo]

Kerbals do not have "genders". They do not reproduce and they are not even alive. They're just characters in a video game. Any discussion beyond that is entertaining speculation at best and a pointless argument at worst.

Of all the innovations in Kerbal philosophy ever made, this is one of the worst ones. I bet that you're also going to go around saying that the VAB doesn't allow one to construct spacecraft, because it's just a video game and at best it's binary code we interpret as rockets? And that Kerbal Space Program is a misnomer, because Kerbals aren't real, it's not actually in space, and things that don't exist can't organise things into programs?

Edited October 27, 2014 by Holo

[J.Random]

Male is our society's view of a neutral, default gender

Weird. As I remember PnP DnD books, in each and every class description character was referred as "she".

To anyone saying that kerbals are all male: have you ever seen kerbal junk? Reproductive organs, I mean? How can you say they're male otherwise?

To anyone saying women need any sort of role model to get into science: start with yourself. If you're girl, get into engineering. Or science. Whatever. Do a good job, make yourself an example. If you're male, get yourself a smart girlfriend. Smart is new s.e.x.y (come on, Squad, it's not a cuss word!), you know. Agitate your daughters to get into math, physics, biology - encourage them to be scientists or engineers. Stop talking about lack of role models and make yourself a role model.

This topic rises again and again, and I don't get it. People rant about female discrimination, and yet one of the first questions female astronaut receives is about how she handles her hair in zero-g. I bet whisky over donut there was also a zero-g boobs question at some point. Gekko in space? First and the most important question: "Do they [snip]?" What is wrong with you people?

If you're fixating on gender issue - you're the problem.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Vanamonde

[Frozen_Heart]

If you're fixating on gender issue - you're the problem.

Gender is a big issue that society focuses on as biologically there are two genders. Society has always revolved around this. Also as females are only more recently being represented in more things, its still a novelty. Its will become more normal as time goes on.

I'm pretty sure the debate on kerbals gender is null though as the devs have stated that they are including girbals at some point.

[Holo]

To anyone saying that kerbals are all male: have you ever seen kerbal junk? Reproductive organs, I mean? How can you say they're male otherwise?

If it looks like a male and it quacks like a male...

[Franklin]

They're all men, because A) Male is our society's view of a neutral, default gender (see stickmen diagrams on toilet doors, men are a simple stickman, women are stickmen with a dress, this is not generally considered a controversial idea even if it is new to you), kerbals are cartoon humans and there's no reason Squad would be exempt from thinking this way if they weren't specifically trying to avoid it, and KSP is themed after the 60's space race, when most astronauts were men.

Exactly, except the "this is not generally considered a controversial idea" balk. It's not generally considered a controversial idea to people who were born in previous gender-normative generations, and by and large, males.

But thankfully we're (or more specifically, millennials), are born of a bridging generation when it comes to gender definition and inclusion. Gender/orientation rights are this generation's social movement, much like our parents being raised through their own racial civil rights movements in the 50s and 60s. Our preconceptions of what's considered "not a controversial idea" has to change to evolve with society's own evolution.

So while Squad hasn't officially defined a gender for their models, their models are clearly influenced by the males who modeled them, which is what requires more social consideration for those who aren't males. They are humanoid, and given Earth-male names. You have to be either purposely glib or just obtuse to see true gender neutrality in their design.

- - - Updated - - -

Find me one person who, upon first interaction, saw Jeb, Bob, or Bill as anything but male and I'll send you a Starbucks gift card.

[Franklin]

I mean, those of you who have it in your minds that gender is purely biological, that <censored male organ> = male, <censored female organ> = female take a trip to the Gender Wikipedia page. You'll probably be dumbfounded by how fluid gender is defined now.

It's not the 80s & 90s anymore, kids.

edit: Come on, censor, not now.

[peadar1987]

Weird. As I remember PnP DnD books, in each and every class description character was referred as "she".

To anyone saying that kerbals are all male: have you ever seen kerbal junk? Reproductive organs, I mean? How can you say they're male otherwise?

They're called "secondary sexual characteristics", same way you'd tell if any person walking down the street was male or female. Shape of their face, their hair etc. Most of the Kerbals exhibit secondary sexual characteristics associated with human males.

To anyone saying women need any sort of role model to get into science: start with yourself. If you're girl, get into engineering. Or science. Whatever. Do a good job, make yourself an example. If you're male, get yourself a smart girlfriend. Smart is new s.e.x.y (come on, Squad, it's not a cuss word!), you know. Agitate your daughters to get into math, physics, biology - encourage them to be scientists or engineers. Stop talking about lack of role models and make yourself a role model.

That would be one way of doing it, but who says we should only try one way of fixing a problem?

This topic rises again and again, and I don't get it. People rant about female discrimination, and yet one of the first questions female astronaut receives is about how she handles her hair in zero-g. I bet whisky over donut there was also a zero-g boobs question at some point. Gekko in space? First and the most important question: "Do they f**k?" What is wrong with you people?

If you're fixating on gender issue - you're the problem.

There's a complete difference between being concerned about the systematic discrimination females in our society face, and fixating on gender in a negative way. It's the difference between that astronaut being asked "Do you feel any pressure being part of such a small pool of role models for girls with ambitions in science and engineering?" and "How do you keep yourself looking good for the boys when you're in space?".

[Dangerous_Beans]

They're called "secondary sexual characteristics", same way you'd tell if any person walking down the street was male or female. Shape of their face, their hair etc. Most of the Kerbals exhibit secondary sexual characteristics associated with human males.

0.75m high and green?

[Pbhead]

I mean, those of you who have it in your minds that gender is purely biological, that <censored male organ> = male, <censored female organ> = female take a trip to the Gender Wikipedia page. You'll probably be dumbfounded by how fluid gender is defined now.

That wikipedia article is about as 'fluid' as what that particular sort of definition of gender is. Which makes the definition essentially useless. No one with a brain would allow a 'fluid' term in a court, or in laws, or anywhere else for that matter.

I really like one editors comment on that particular article: "This article has become an irrepairable mess of pseudoscience over the years. The only real solution seems to be to revert to a far older revision and start anew. Hopefully it turns out better."

Which, when it comes right down to it. we can arrive at a very interesting conclusion by a simple substitution, when you consider what a wikipedia article is:

"The <definition of gender> has become an irrepairable mess of pseudoscience over the years. The only real solution seems to be to revert to a far older revision and start anew. Hopefully it turns out better."

[Parallax]

In Heretics of Dune, the Bene Gesserit Lady Janet notes to her son Miles Teg that "No one outside of [the Tleilaxu] planets has ever reported seeing a Tleilaxu female." Wondering whether the Tleilaxu breed or simply rely on the tanks to reproduce, Miles asks, "Do they exist or is it just the tanks?" Janet confirms that females do indeed exist. Later in Heretics, Teg's own daughter, Reverend Mother Darwi Odrade, theorizes that the axlotl tanks may be, in fact, "surrogate mothers"  Tleilaxu females somehow transformed. Soon, the current Duncan ghola recalls his repeated "births" from the tanks: "The axlotl tanks! He remembered emerging time after time: bright lights and padded mechanical hands. The hands rotated him and, in the unfocused blurs of the newborn, he saw a great mound of female flesh  monstrous in her almost immobile grossness ... a maze of dark tubes linked her body to giant metal containers".

i imagine it to be something like this....

Edited October 28, 2014 by Parallax

[LABHOUSE]

They are asexual cold blooded mammals that reproduce by getting cut in two.

[Vanamonde]

Find me one person who, upon first interaction, saw Jeb, Bob, or Bill as anything but male and I'll send you a Starbucks gift card.

I saw them as little green aliens who might be male, female, neither, both, or unclassifiable by our familiar labels. As someone who grew up reading science fiction, I do not make that kind of unfounded assumption. But more importantly, I just didn't care. They are merely cute little pilots for our ships, and it doesn't matter if they have genders.

You have to be either purposely glib or just obtuse to see true gender neutrality in their design.

Kerbals have a mixture of the features, some of which are associated with one human gender or another.

hips wider than shoulders: female

androgynous voices: no help for either side there

short hair: male or merely so their helmets fit?

no facial hair: female, or clean-shaven?

names: mostly male, but not exclusively

no bust: male, or simply non-mammalian?

three-fingered hands: neither male nor female, nor even primate

green skin: not even human

Etc.

The evidence is equivocal at best, and to look at these alien creatures with their mix of features and declare that they are all male is itself a projection of the viewers' biases.

(Since this issue tends to result in arguments, I should state that I am expressing my feeling on the subject as a player, and not speaking in this post either as a moderator, and certainly not on behalf of Squad.)

Edited October 28, 2014 by Vanamonde

[GregA]

Please keep your social justice warrioring and radical gender activism out of my video games.

#gamergate

Crossposting ID's of the perpetrators on 8chan.

[Xaiier]

...no facial hair: female, or clean-shaven?...

Wrong actually, the PR guy has 5 o'clock shadow.

OT: This thread is full of lolz

[megatiger78]

This thread will self destruct. Also kerbals are evolved from a failed human colony mission

[Wanderfound]

Please keep your social justice warrioring and radical gender activism out of my video games.

#gamergate

Crossposting ID's of the perpetrators on 8chan.

No.

I will however, avoid encouraging that toxic nonsense to this forum.

I will also, however, note the implied threat.

[GregA]

No.

I will however, avoid encouraging that toxic nonsense to this forum.

I will also, however, note the implied threat.

No threat, I was simply shaming you into silence, as is the Social justice warriors way...

[Claw]

Kerbonauts, seriously... How many times do we have to go over this. We've already been told repeatedly that "female kerbals" will be added. It's not going to be fast enough for some people, and others don't care when it will arrive.

In any case, please keep personal threats, attacks, and shaming out of this.

Cheers,

~Claw

[Superfluous J]

No threat, I was simply shaming you into silence, as is the Social justice warriors way...

Okay you're not getting kicked off or banned or modded ...

In any case, please keep personal threats, attacks, and shaming out of this.

[EDIT]

Never mind

[/EDIT]

[Tw1]

-snip-

It's an interesting point about the hip-shoulder ratio.

But, if you look at one front on in kerbalizer, it's not that much- they are a lot closer to a slightly pudgy male figure, than anything feminine.

Their hips stick out more in the front and back, rather than the side, which I took as part of their alienness.Like the huge feet- they need it to walk with their huge heads.

Many of their features are just alien, like the bug eyes, but others can be read as male:

The hairline follows a pattern more typical in males. The cylindrical head and broad jaw also are closer to a typical male face, rather than the more rounded shapes seen in human females.

If they were a real alien species, then it would be silly to assume human like genders.

But the similarity to humans would be suspicious.

As these aren't real aliens, but characters created by humans, it's not unreasonable to ignore those ques.

I think it's a pretty solid case that the kerbals in the game so far look male.

Plus, the look is what's important here- a backstory explaining they are all clones won't stop someone from looking, and thinking- that's a guy. Where are the girl ones?

Edited October 28, 2014 by Tw1

[r4pt0r]

Please keep your social justice warrioring and radical gender activism out of my video games.

#gamergate

I support this message.

But lets examine Official sources for facts on kerbals.

They grow hair.

They eat snacks/drink liquids and judging by the toilet in the broken down ksc, they produce waste and have similar digestive systems.

They have hearts

We can assume from

they have skulls and some bone structures.

Their eyes work same as ours, as shown by the fact that some wear glasses, presumably to correct poor eyesight.

anything else?

[Feldynn]

It's pretty obvious that the current Kerbals have a lot of characteristics indicative of the typical (stereotypical even) Human male, but personally speaking I don't really care what gender they are all that much. If / when Squad adds Kerbals with more Human female characteristics I'm not going to change how I play the game, I guess I'm an equal opportunity "Rocket Scientist" insofar as I'll shove any Kerbal in one of my rickety contraptions so long as they have the right amount of Courage and Stupidity and will continue to do so regardless of gender .

[Franklin]

That wikipedia article is about as 'fluid' as what that particular sort of definition of gender is. Which makes the definition essentially useless. No one with a brain would allow a 'fluid' term in a court, or in laws, or anywhere else for that matter.

The irony here is they do. Consideration for a non-binary acceptance of gender, and what peadar called "secondary sexual characteristics" have been gaining continual legal traction. Gender has been left off many application forms and profile forms for a while, and continues to become commonplace. The allowance of born-male-identify-female individuals to use bathroom facilities based on their personal identification has been upheld in courts, and most operations allow transgenders of either spectrum to use whichever facility they feel most comfortable without the ability to be barred legally. There are numerous cases in the last 20 years of discrimination cases being handed to operations that blocked or classified individuals incorrectly based on their biological se.x, not personal gender.

Like I said, it's not the 80s and 90s anymore, times have changed.

But I'm steppin out of this thread now that the gamergate relics have been piqued. It's like arguing over racial rights with my grandfather. Plus it doesn't matter, female Kerbals are planned so it's a null issue.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Franklin

[Frozen_Heart]

I'm pretty sure this thread has run its course if the topic had gone onto Trangender rights...

The devs have stated girbals are coming so we should take that as the official stance.