Squadcast Summary (Updated 2014-12-13 - the 0.90 features video edition!)

[jfull]

If Kerbal Engineers can fix things and Kerbal Pilots provide SAS, what functionality do Kerbal Scientists provide?

Are they the only ones who can collect science from experiment modules? Or will crew reports and EVA reports return more science points if they're performed by a scientist?

[Bloody_looser]

Are they the only ones who can collect science from experiment modules? Or will crew reports and EVA reports return more science points if they're performed by a scientist?

The second one, since the other one will make single-kerbal pods useless, i.e.:

Pilots can't do science

Scientists can't fly

Engineers can't do anything

It'll be time to dismount Mk.I from the monument and fly it

[Rakaydos]

If Kerbal Engineers can fix things and Kerbal Pilots provide SAS, what functionality do Kerbal Scientists provide?

Are they the only ones who can collect science from experiment modules? Or will crew reports and EVA reports return more science points if they're performed by a scientist?

If so, you might want to send up Scientists in yur first few 1-man rockets, to get advanced probes faster.

[Superfluous J]

Remote units do no longer get SAS, they kinda will have something like it in the highest tier, gut it is not recommended to use them, so what is their purpose then? It is the soft way to force the Player to use pilots.

I watched the twitch today in total.

I was under the impression that basic SAS was the lowest tier of piloting, and was also under the impression that probes would go through the same progression as pilots do, meaning that the lowest probes would have basic SAS before any of the other things.

But as you watched Squadcast and Twitch makes my eye twitch just thinking about it, I'll defer to you.

[Meecrob]

I thought I would offer my interpretation of the SAS changes since they seem to be confusing people. This is after all taken from an interview, not a revised-and-edited-press-release-speech and presented to people who may not even speak English as their first language. (No offense to any party involved. I'm just pointing out the chance for mis-communication.)

KXP

Also, SAS doesn't really exist as a thing any more - it's only available if you have pilots in the ship. RW and pods provide torque.

To me, this implies that the physical part you select in the VAB/SPH and place on your craft to perform SAS functions is now gone. To replace it, you will need a Kerbal (or a probecore of some sort - we need more information on what tier it will have to be). The tools SAS used to use are still there (RCS, RW's and pods), they will just have to be controlled by something other than the SAS module. SAS as you all know it is still there, you just have to utilize it slightly differently.

[Alewx]

I thought I would offer my interpretation of the SAS changes since they seem to be confusing people. This is after all taken from an interview, not a revised-and-edited-press-release-speech and presented to people who may not even speak English as their first language. (No offense to any party involved. I'm just pointing out the chance for mis-communication.)

To me, this implies that the physical part you select in the VAB/SPH and place on your craft to perform SAS functions is now gone. To replace it, you will need a Kerbal (or a probecore of some sort - we need more information on what tier it will have to be). The tools SAS used to use are still there (RCS, RW's and pods), they will just have to be controlled by something other than the SAS module. SAS as you all know it is still there, you just have to utilize it slightly differently.

The advantage of the probe was to have the full controll with RCS, SAS, command and so on without risking the live of a kerbal. So there is no utilize it slightly differently.

[razark]

To me, this implies that the physical part you select in the VAB/SPH and place on your craft to perform SAS functions is now gone.

There has been no part that performed the ASAS (attitude hold) function for a while. The ASAS function was transferred to capsules and cores. The SAS parts have been functioning as the reaction wheels. Fixing the name of the parts to properly reflect their function might help stop the confusion.

[Meecrob]

The advantage of the probe was to have the full controll with RCS, SAS, command and so on without risking the live of a kerbal. So there is no utilize it slightly differently.

I'm not arguing the advantages or disadvantages. I am trying to clarify Maxmap's statement since the same argument came up every two pages.

There has been no part that performed the ASAS (attitude hold) function for a while. The ASAS function was transferred to capsules and cores. The SAS parts have been functioning as the reaction wheels. Fixing the name of the parts to properly reflect their function might help stop the confusion.

And it looks like I added to the confusion. 0.21 here, some of this is before my time. Let me see if I can re-state what I said in total non-Ksp lingo:

There is a part in the game everyone knows and loves that will be removed. It used to function with other parts to make "piloting" (including unmanned) easier for the user. With this revision, the way you interact with it will be different. The functions remain the same (plus added features), but in order to utilize them, you will now have to use a different part.

Again, I'm not arguing whether this is a good or bad idea. I just want to get to the bottom of this.

[tntristan12]

I like the idea of some functions being role specific, and experience being the primary mechanism to improve their performance of those functions.

However, in the interest of making unmanned craft different, I feel like probe cores should function as pilots from the get go, with a higher than normal amount of "skill" but still be ranked based on where they fall in the tech tree. I would also like to see probe cores be able to do some science function, so we can finally have unmanned probes take readings of a place in advance of landing a kerbal there.

Since there is already little incentive to play using probe cores, I can't help but wonder if an approach like this would help balance that aspect of the game a little better.

[wolfedg]

And this reply is to all similar comments...

Have none of you memory of (not even that) old versions of KSP? It used to be that you had reaction wheels (SAS) and heading hold (ASAS) as separate parts. So if you wanted to have control, you needed to add an ASAS, otherwise it was manual flying (read: spin stabilization). The ASAS was pretty heavy, 800 kg, so you'd typically have it on launchers and maybe landers, but not on the ascent stage, for both dV reasons and size. ASAS functionality was added to the pods in .21 when the SAS was rewritten, so not even that long ago. Ever wonder why the 2.5m ASAS unit doesn't have wheels modeled in it? Because it was just a computer when it was introduced in .18! But .21 made that redundant, so it got torque added.

It took something out of the "game"...we no longer had to balance having extra mass of an ASAS vs manually controlling the vessel, and there were times you'd forgo the ASAS. Easy mode.

In sum, get off my lawn, suck it up, learn to fly manually (like many astronauts did in Mercury and Gemini and I assume early Soviet vehicles), and quit complaining

I think 0.21 was fixing a bug. It was nearly impossible to fly planes prior to 0.21 (by keyboard) and so i never bothered. Once ASAS heading hold was introduced it opened a whole new section of the game for me. Heading hold is a must for flying by keyboard, i reckon most players who made aircraft prior to 0.21 used joysticks.

EDIT: It used to be that you constantly had to unlock and relock asas (t) to change direction, very frustrating.

Edited December 7, 2014 by wolfedg

[tanuki_chau]

Okay Biomes are still in. I don't know if they mentioned anything about that in the stream. I didn't make it . I didn't see the UI post you had in the OP, oops! About the part Hugo made, I know there's no chance of that coming in stock (especially since they removed that size of fuselage entirely), I'm just curious if it will be brought forwards to a mod at all. As to the IVAs for the other parts, I'm not saying they are coming in this update (H*** no that's early! It'd me mentioned by now it it was.). It's just I've heard absolutely no indications of Squad even revisiting them. So U'm wondering if there's any news of that.

Thanks for your clear ups! Have some rep o/

Yes they are in .90. Mu and I added them last Sunday. I was watching *_* to make sure they got in there.

[AlexinTokyo]

OK, I finally was able to find that reddit link:

More or less. SAS itself is a vessel system, not a part system. Currently it requires at least one part which can provide SAS, but internally, all that SAS module does is say 'I provide SAS'.

We are now rethinking what SAS really is. Instead of an empty part system, SAS is now better described as requesting assistance from the pilot.

That means to have SAS in a vessel, you must have either a part which can provide SAS (a probe core), or a command module with at least one pilot aboard. The lowest-level pilots (and probes) will enable standard SAS, while higher level ones (or more advanced probes) will make new control assistance modes available.

The basic SAS is the same as always. It's merely a stability assistance to stop rotation and keep the ship steady. The next level allows you to automatically point the ship to the 'cardinal' headings in orbit, like prograde, retro, normal, anti-normal, and so on. The highest assist 'tier' we have atm allows you to maintain attitude towards a maneuver node, and also to track a targeted object. These will require very experienced pilots, or very expensive probes.

If your crew has no pilots, SAS will not be available. You could carry an extra scientist or engineer this way, but then the piloting will be entirely up to you.

Cheers

*Emphasis mine.

For the tl;dr crowd:

The lowest-level pilots (and probes) will enable standard SAS

The basic SAS is the same as always.

So can we please put this argument to bed and focus on the awesome that is KSP 0.90.0?

Please?

[kujuman]

I think 0.21 was fixing a bug. It was nearly impossible to fly planes prior to 0.21 (by keyboard) and so i never bothered. Once ASAS heading hold was introduced it opened a whole new section of the game for me. Heading hold is a must for flying by keyboard, i reckon most players who made aircraft prior to 0.21 used joysticks.

EDIT: It used to be that you constantly had to unlock and relock asas (t) to change direction, very frustrating.

Pre- 0.21:

• SAS were ONLY reaction wheels
  
• ASAS were ONLY heading hold computers
  
• Vessels needed ASAS to have heading hold, but did not need more than one ASAS part
  
• ASAS was a "hard-hold": it would not allow any manual control inputs, requiring unlocking and locking
  
• The ASAS would waste RCS like crazy
  
• The ASAS would maintain exactly the heading you wanted, but would oscillate pretty badly on some craft trying to do so
  

Post- 0.21

• ASAS functionality was added to all command pods and probe cores
  
• ASAS parts changed to act as SAS (torque wheels)
  
• ASAS logic vastly improved by:
  
  • Allowing a player to control one axis while holding the others steady, a "soft-hold"
    
  • Being much less likely to "hunt" for the correct direction, no longer wasting RCS like crazy
    

It sounds like post- 0.90

• All probe cores will provide post-0.21 ASAS functionality. So if you want to fly a vessel with no pilot (maybe just a scientist) you can add a probe core to get ASAS functionality.
  
• The only kerbonauts that can provide ASAS are "pilots"
  
• Any "pilot" will give standard ASAS
  
• Improved probe cores and pilots give access to new heading select modes
  

What we don't know

• Are kerbals ever not in a class? IE, is there some generic "recruit" who does not have any class?
  
• Does the player choose what class the kerbals will each belong to, or is it randomly assigned, like the traits are?
  
• Can a player change/add to a kerbal's class? Can a pilot also be a scientist? Could a player change an advanced pilot into a basic scientist?
  

[Robotengineer]

In the astronaut complex, will new recruits have a class pre-selected? Or will they be a recruit? Will the original 3 be divided into the classes? Will this feature mean class warfare?

[tntristan12]

In the astronaut complex, will new recruits have a class pre-selected? Or will they be a recruit? Will the original 3 be divided into the classes? Will this feature mean class warfare?

I think it would be cool if some traits made it easier for kerbals in one class to progress easier than others, and when you recruit you get to assign them into a class that tries to optimize their traits. For example, low-stupidity kerbals make better engineers and scientists, but higher courage ratings make for better pilots (perhaps another one could be added in there)

[Bloody_looser]

For the tl;dr crowd:

The lowest-level pilots (and probes) will enable standard SAS

The basic SAS is the same as always.

Finally, someone clarified it. Sir, I salute you.

[Steambirds]

Maybe Engineers with high courage do better in space than engineers with lower courage, high courage scientists get slightly more science from research in space, etc.

[dryer_lint]

Here's how I imagine KXP will work:

- Pilots such as Jeb will be able to hold the craft's attitude and point at specific directions, as we've covered already. They should be included on every sort of mission. Courage is the big factor with pilots and determines how well they perform.

- Engineers such as Bill will be able to fix rover wheels, solar panels, and landing gear. Maybe if we get re-entry they can fix heatshields? They should be included on big missions involving rovers or landings. Stupidity is the big factor with engineers and determines how fast they rank up (ranks determine what stuff they can fix)

- Scientists such as Bob will be able to get more science for their pod's reports. They should be included on pioneering missions to grab the most science points. Stupidity is the big factor with scientists and determines how much more science they can bring you. Oh, and they should be required for mobile labs to work! Just realized that!

----

There's two possibilities for how ranking up will work:

1) YOU choose each Kerbal's path. When a Kerbal is in a ship that performs maneuvers, they get pilot experience. Science reports, science experience... etc. Choosing the Kerbal's path allows them to get the right experience more quickly... maybe you'll also be able to pay for training and get them experience right away.

2) THE GAME chooses each Kerbal's path. When you hire a Kerbal, they have a profession written under their name and this sticks with them forever, experience is increased by being in a ship or training, but you can't assign them a new path/profession. While this might limit creativity, it would add the element of needing to hire the correct Kerbals. (We don't have enough pilots, hire some more)

[Wanderfound]

I'm curious as to whether there is any possibility of a multi-class Kerbal. Scientist-pilots do exist.

[JimmyAgent007]

I'm curious as to whether there is any possibility of a multi-class Kerbal. Scientist-pilots do exist.

maybe once you attain max rank in one job you can add another. though i feel like that or something else will need to be done by a mod.

[metl]

OK, I finally was able to find that reddit link:

*Emphasis mine.

For the tl;dr crowd:

The lowest-level pilots (and probes) will enable standard SAS

The basic SAS is the same as always.

So can we please put this argument to bed and focus on the awesome that is KSP 0.90.0?

Please?

But the basic SAS is NOT the same, because in order to use it, you have to have a PILOT. Nobody else can use it. So for an Apollo-style mission (or any mission requiring two separate vessels,) to have stability assist in both craft requires TWO pilots. Suddenly there is no room for an engineer because he isn't smart enough to flip the standard SAS toggle (very useful during docking.) That is the problem with the changes. I just can't see the justification of doing it this way. I get the advanced features and overall I think KXP is cool, but every kerbonaut should have some basic piloting abilities.

Harv ssaid it himself in the last part. if there is no pilot, there is no SAS.

[AlexinTokyo]

From the same post:

That means to have SAS in a vessel, you must have EITHER a part which can provide SAS (a probe core), OR a command module with at least one pilot aboard.

Once again, emphasis mine.

[metl]

Great. I can stick a stayputnik on top where the parachute goes. Wonderful. There's a saying "A solution in search of a problem." I feel like that is what they did hear.

[Rakaydos]

Great. I can stick a stayputnik on top where the parachute goes. Wonderful. There's a saying "A solution in search of a problem." I feel like that is what they did hear.

If you're not sending a kerbal, why bring a parachute?

[Superfluous J]

If you're not sending a kerbal, why bring a parachute?

Who said he wasn't bringing a Kerbal?