Life Support - Discussion and Comparison (updated 11/29/2019)

[linuxgurugamer]

I've been looking at the various Life Support mods. There is no one place to discuss this, each has it's own thread.

So far, I've found nine different mods (thanks to those who pointed me to Snacks and Ioncross):

• Snacks! Kerbal simplified life support
• Interstellar Flight Inc. Kerbal Life Support Mod
• ECLSS (not supported in 0.90)
• TAC Life support
• Ioncross Crew Support v1.18 (Starwaster's branch)
• USI Life Support
• Kerbalism (new mod)
• Closed Loop Life Support (CLLS) 
• Progressive Colonization System

and very related:

• Deep Freeze continued (hibernation)

Please post if there are others.

Overall, from reading, I've come up with the following descriptions (specifics copied from their specific threads), from simplistic to complex:

Snacks! Continued v1.6.2 - Friendly, Simplified Life Support

Snacks is a Kerbal simplification of life support. I've always like the idea of playing with life support, but it always ended up to be tedious and all the extra parts are just too much sometimes. So I created Snacks to fill the casual life support gap. The main goals of this mod are one resource(snacks) and no new parts. Kerbals and the agency are penalized when snacks run out. Kerbals will not die from lack of snacks, they simply get very grumpy, perform poorly and your reputation will go down.

Main Functionality:

• Snacks are added as a resource to every module that can carry crew 50 snacks per capacity.
• Snack capacity of non-command modules is 200 snacks for each capacity. Some modules may have more or less depending on built in snack compartments, or lack of space! The idea is that non-command modules are the main means to transport snacks.
• Kerbals randomly consume snacks on average every 6 hours, 1/2 snack each time. This averages to 1/2 snack per Kerbin day or 2 snacks per Earth day. You cannot predict with certainty how many will be required for a given mission. There are a few extra twists here as well. Some Kerbals, especially courageous ones may sneak an extra snack at snack time, others may forget to eat if their stupidity is to high.
• Kerbals on EVA take 1 snack with them. This should be enough for about 2 Kerbin days. Plan accordingly.
• If you deprive a Kerbal of snacks, the next time he attempts to eat snacks, your reputation will go down. Each subsequent time the Kerbal is deprived your reputation decreases. Reputation decrease is based on your current reputation. If you are a reputable space agency, your reputaion will drop faster than a less reputable agency.

Interstellar Flight Inc. Kerbal Life Support Mod

• Kerbal going on Eva takes Life Support from pod/vessel.
• Boarding a pod returns unused Life support to pod/vessel.
• Running out of Life Support or Electric can kill crew, if outside kerbin atmosphere.
• Life Support and Electric is used even if not active vessel.
• All pods have LS Resource and plugin installed using ModuleManager.
• Electric Charge on EVA - Used by Lifesupport system and if HeadLamp is on.
• 2 Custom parts a radial and a inline tank for Lifesupport resource storage.

Universal Storage has created a wedge to hold Lifesupport giving yo 3 options for extra LS storage.

Currently there are several Status LS system can be in:

• Pod Standby - No demand for LS and no resources consumed. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining is hidden.
• Active - Demand for LS and resources consumed. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining will read how long LS will last for whole vessel.
• Visor - Kerbal on EVA breathing outside air decreased Resource consumption. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining will read how much LS remains once active again (fixing).
• Intake Air - Pod using air intakes to provide O2 to crew - decreased Resource consumption. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining will read how much LS remains once active again.
• CAUTION - Less than 2 days pod or 1 hour EVA of LS remaining. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining will read how long LS will last for whole vessel.
• Warning! - LS or Electric Charge at 0. Kerbals will start dying if immediate action not taken. Life Support tag for days / hours of LS remaining will read 0.

Each unit of Life-Support should provide 1 Kerbin Day (6 hours) of Life support for 1 Kerbal.

Mod uses the time as set in settings menu so it will track 6 or 24 hour days depending on setting in main menu. Days remaining on RT click menu are accurate based on this setting. Only change in mod is that if not using kerbin time each Kerbal requires 4 units of LS per day.

==================

The following is updated to 1.0.2, has not been updated since 2014 because of license issues with the models:

ECLSS 1.0.19

Features:

- From now on each crewmember consumes oxygen and produce carbon dioxide, once they are outside breathable atmosphere (14km for Kerbin).

- Crew can not live without oxygen outside of breatheable atmosphere, and as such, they will die a horrible death if you won't supply them with sufficient supply of oxygen.

- Just in case worse comes to worst, crew can use O2 candles as emergency source of oxygen. But they won't last long, and they are HEAVY, so don't rely on them. Each capsule contains few of them.

- Contain oxygen regenerator, which could be used to reprocess some of CO2 back into oxygen. Consumes a considerable amount of electricity, so be prepared to supply it.

- From now on, when kerbal goes onto EVA, he takes RCS and oxygen from vessel's tanks. Upon return, any excess resources are returned to vessel tanks. Be careful - if there is no RCS onboard, kerbal might not be able to return to the vessel!!!

- If you'll forget about that, system will notify you once oxygen level lowers below caution or warning thresholds. These thresholds could be modified on per-vessel basis, by default they are 25% and 5% of onboard capacity.

- GUI added to just about any screen, which displays current O2/CO2 levels. In the Map and Tracking Station views, you can view that information for any vessel without having to switch to it. There is also summary screen which list all your vessels and essential ECLSS-related information about them.

- Package includes configuration file for ModuleManager that adds life support-related resources.

- Package also includes tanks for both oxygen and CO2, and regenerator, courtesy of awesome BobCat.

- and the KILLER FEATURE: ALL OF THAT is happening AT ALL TIMES, FOR ALL VESSELS, INCLUDING INACTIVE, even when you are at the Space Center, or Tracking Station.

==================

Ioncross Crew Support v1.18 (Starwaster's branch)

The Ioncross Crew Support Plugin is a simple customizable life support mod for Kerbal. It comes setup with kerbals requiring oxygen, producing carbon dioxide, and their ships require electric charge. If they run out of oxygen or their ship fills up with carbon dioxide the kerbals will be killed. If their ship runs out of electric charge the command pods will stop working.

The resources and effects they have when they run out or fill up can be edited in the configuration file.

This mod adds crew support systems to Kerbal Space Program. By default it is setup for oxygen, carbon dioxide, and electric charge, but this can be easily changed in the configuration file to support any number of resources.

The mod consists of several parts:

• Crew Support Module: Parts with the crew support module will consume resources based on the setting in the configuration file, the number of kerbals onboard and their crew capacity. They also have built in generators intended to collect waste produce before they fill up the ship.
• Resource Storage: Simple tanks to store oxygen for your Kerbal’s to breath. Currently there are three oxygen tanks using the default RCS tank models found under utility.
• Carbon Dioxide Removal/Recycling: The crew support module has a built in scrubber to remove CO2, but there are also recycling generators that will covert CO2 back into oxygen. These greatly increase the longevity of an oxygen supply. Two recyclers are included in the utility category using the RCS tanks.
• Intake Systems: Atmospheric intake modules will draw in oxygen or CO2 from the atmosphere. In oxygen atmospheres intakes will draw in oxygen directly; in non-oxygen atmospheres they’ll draw in CO2 instead. One intake using the circular intake model is included with the other life support parts.

==================

USI Life Support

Mechanics wise, it's pretty simple.

Kerbals require supplies. Kerbals also require EC. these are both on the same timer, so I just check supplies for the status window. When Kerbals are done consuming supplies, leftovers, scraps, and 'anything else' is either tossed overboard, or (if storage is available) tossed into a 'mulcher'. The resulting organic slurry is called 'mulch' and can be used to feed greenhouses, etc. at the player's discretion (or in the case of MKS, converted into Organics at varying levels of efficiency).

15 days out, the visuals go yellow (sorry, no auto-warp-slowdown-thingie, use KAC). When supplies run out, things go into the red. If you leave them unsupplied for 15 days...

well, they just say 'screw it', get grouchy, and quit.

They are still in the pod. they still take up a seat. But they can't fly, can't EVA, and essentially do the Kerbal equivelant of spinning around in their office chairs, refusing to work, until resupplied. This is a design consideration in that all of us, at least once, has just flat out done goofed, and lost a whole colony of Kerbals via glich or other sadness. Yes, death/despawn will be an option. Not the default one tho. Mechanics wise, they are transformed into tourists, as they are essentially on a self-imposed vacation

Once resupplied, they are happy as clams and will return to work.

While on EVA, they will not quit. But if they are brought back aboard a ship and have been starved (and can't find a hot meal waiting) they will promptly go in strike, and begin their self imposed vacation immediately.

Orange suited Kerbals (Jeb, Bill, Bob, and Val) are immune to the ill effects of life support. They will still consume supplies if given, but do not leave the job, because they are just that awesome. This always gives a player (especially a new one) an 'out' to test out a manned mission before actually committing your other kerbals, etc. to a horrible fate of snack deprivation.

Yes, it's a bit more 'Kerbal' than TAC-LS, but also a lot more predictable and with harder consequences than 'Snacks'. It does, however, feel 'right' (at least to me) from a design standpoint.

Parts wise: Three inline storage compartments.

No extra recyclers needed. No resourced added to pods (the 15 day window covers all of the Kerbin SOI so no point). No random contracts.

New features for USI-LS

• Vets are no longer excluded from effects by default.
• Habitation is now a thing, and needs to be taken into consideration.
• Homesickness also - it's a variation on Habitation.
• There are more parts now.  (16 in just USI-LS, though most are just variants of storage tanks.)

 

==================

TAC Life support

Core Features

• Kerbals require resources to survive, whether in a vessel or on EVA: Food, Water, Oxygen, Electricity (for air quality and climate control)
• Resources are needed all the time, even when flying another vessel, or sitting at the Space Center or Tracking Station.
• Kerbals can die if they go without resources for too long. The defaults are: 360 hours without Food (60 Kerbin days/15 Earth days), 36 hours without Water, 2 hours without Oxygen, and 2 hours without Electricity.
• Kerbals produce waste resources: Carbon Dioxide, Waste, and Waste Water. Currently Carbon Dioxide can be recycled into Oxygen, and Waste Water can be recycled into clean Water. Also can filter Oxygen out of IntakeAir, or split Water into Oxygen and Waste (hydrogen). A greenhouse part that allows growing Food is planned, but is not included yet.
• Filling up with waste resources (Carbon Dioxide, Waste, Waste Water) has no effect. Any excess is dumped overboard, and you lose the opportunity to convert them back into good resources.

• Includes a Life Support Monitoring window for watching resource levels and a countdown to when they might run out, even for far away vessels. See note 1.
• Includes a Build Aid window for use in the editors (VAB and SPH) to help build vessels with enough resources.
• Allows you to enable or disable the mod on a saved-game basis. No more uninstalling/reinstalling when switching between saved games.
• Most command pods come stocked with 12 hours (2 Kerbin days/0.5 Earth days) worth of resources.
• When a Kerbal goes on EVA, the Kerbal takes 6 hours of each resource along in the EVA suit, taking from the pod the Kerbal was in.
• Kerbals will not start requiring resources until the first time that you focus the vessel, or get close enough that it loads -- within the 2.4 km load distance. This includes Kerbals that you get a contract to rescue.
• Oxygen is not required on Kerbin below a reasonable altitude, which is defined as atmospheric pressure greater than 0.5 atm (Mt. Everest Base Camp, roughly 3.4 km on Kerbin) or 0.2+ atm if you have Electric Charge (close to the maximum altitude most airliners fly, roughly 8 km on Kerbin). Above that, the air is too thin.
• Oxygen is needed on Laythe because the EVA reports seem to indicate that the air is not the right mixture or contains other substances that are not breathable. Use an air intake and the TACLS Air Filter there to extract Oxygen and keep your tanks full.
• Consumption rates, masses, and volumes are based on real world values. You can see all of my math if you want.

==================

Kerbalism is a new mod which does LS and a lot  more:

Kerbalism is a gameplay mod for Kerbal Space Program that add new mechanics representing some of the problems that a real space program must overcome. Each one interact in some way with the others.

A coherent background simulation of the mechanics and resources is central to the experience.

Space is hard. How hard you are about to discover.

==================

Closed Loop Life Support (CLLS)

A simple life support mod which aims at simulating a small, self-contained system for keeping Kerbals alive during long voyages through space. It adds a new resource "LifeSupport" which is consumed by Kerbals at a rate of one unit per day. If your crew runs out of life support they will die. To prevent this dire fate, this mod adds new life support containers to increase the maximum mission time as well as life support generators, which will allow you to create self sufficient ships and stations, provided you have enough electricity.

Features

• Kerbals will require life support to stay alive (1 unit per 6 hour day).
• All parts with crew capacity will hold a small amount of life support (3 units per crew-slot).
• Kerbals on EVA will take 1 unit of life support from the ship and put it back once they return, giving you a maximum EVA duration of 1 day.
• Kerbals which have run out of life support will die.
• Life support can be extended with life support storage containers.
• For longer missions life support generators can be used to generate life support. This allows the creation of fully self-sufficient interplanetary ships and bases.
• The production-rate and thus the energy consumption of life support generators can be tweaked to avoid wasting resources.
• The life support usage and production is tracked for all ships, even in the background and during time warp.

==================

Progressive Colonization System

This mod provides a simple life support system and a production model that doesn't require mad slide-rule skills to understand.  But core to the whole idea is the "tiered" model for production.  When you first go to space, you can get by on stored snacks.  When you want to stay out there a while, you'll want to look into producing food in space, and that's going to take a while.  New "Tiers" of production are unlocked by actually producing and consuming stuff produced in space. 

This mod is designed to encourage you to build a variety of ships.  To research agroponics, you'll need orbital space stations.  To research off-world agriculture, you'll need to land a farm and no, all that stuff you learned about agroponics isn't going to do you a bit of good on the surface.

To get an idea of how "Tiers" work, just look at the life support consumable, "Snacks".  If you fill a container with snacks on Kerban, it's "Kerban Snacks".  A kerban will eat one "Kerban Snacks" every day.  Let's say you have a "Tier 0" Agroponics module on this ship.  Given a little fertilizer, it can produce "Tier 0" "Agroponics Snacks".  Tier 0 snacks are far from haute cuisine, but nevertheless Jeb is willing to take one for the team.  But he's got limits; Jeb will be willing to consume only up to 20% of his daily snack quota on Tier-0 quality snacks.

"Tier 1 Agroponic Snacks" are tastier, and Jeb would be willing to take that as 40% of his diet.  But to be able to get out of the tier 0 kit, Jeb's going to have to choke down quite a few of those tier 1 snacks and Bill's going to have to spend some time trying to make them better.  Tier-1 is unlocked by kerbals consuming Tier-0 snacks and lab research on ships equipped with Tier-0 kit.  Once Tier-1 is unlocked, nothing changes on board Jeb's vessel - it still has the "Tier 0" equipment.  A new vessel has to be designed that includes the new tier of agroponics modules.

==================

Universal Storage is applicable to several of these mods:

 

Universal Storage is set of parts to help you build service modules for your craft. Two core parts for 1.25 and 2.5 meter stacks provide a number of attachment points where you can fit various wedges. These wedges can store resources, provide KAS containers and even be used to create Apollo style science bays. In addition a number of reactors and processors are included to help you make the most of your resources. Each of these parts are balanced based on real world examples used in the Apollo space program or on the International Space Station.

The mod is released in a number of packs so you can customize your experience. The core pack contains the basic mounting parts as well as stand alone parts that will work without any other mods installed. On top of this you can install additional packs to tailor the mod for ELCSS, TAC life support and others.

==================

Deep Freeze Continued

This mod provides the ability to freeze and thaw kerbals for those long space journeys.

Introduces glykerol resource used for freezing kerbals.

To freeze a kerbal you must have 5 glykerol units (configurable via part.cfg or settings menu) and 3000 electrical charge (configurable via part.cfg or settings menu) per kerbal.

To thaw a kerbal you must have 3000 electrical charge (configurable via part.cfg or settings menu) per kerbal.

This is the on-going release version of the original dev version of DeepFreeze by scottpalladin. Due to other commitments Scott has indicated to me that he has little time and unlikely to continue any mod work on KSP into the future and has given me permission to continue the work.

As per the terms of the original license full credit to scottpalladin PaladinLabs for the original concept, ideas and dev mod. The license continues under the same license conditions. This version will be known as DeepFreeze Continued...

Uses: When kerbals are frozen they do not consume life support resources (known issue when thawing Kerbals with TACLS). If you don't use life support mods, this mod doesn't really do much, except provide a few cool parts and fairly useless feature.

Features:

• Compatible with USI Life Support and Snacks!. Partial compatibility with TACLS (see full description for info)

Edited February 24, 2020 by linuxgurugamer
Added Kerbalism

[Nemrav]

There's also snacks... You could check that out

[AbacusWizard]

If and when stock life support is implemented, I really really hope that the relevant resource is "snacks." Or maybe "snaks" or "snax."

[linuxgurugamer]

There's also snacks... You could check that out

Will do, thanks

[Specialist290]

Dropping this in General Add-On Affairs, since that's where general discussion of mod-related content goes

[Malah]

There is Ioncross Crew Support which is really nice too

[stibbons]

I've been using the USI Kolonization System parts with TAC LS for a while now. It's a pretty nice pack for building fully self-sufficient orbital and surface colonies.

[Mecripp]

There is also Ironcross http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/82084 and IMO if stock did pick a life Support, I would hope it would be anyone but snacks, I don't see snacks as a life Support mod.

[RoverDude]

The issue with snacks (well, more design choice) is that it is not mass-neutral, so it makes building closed loop (or near closed loop) systems impossible unless you ignore the laws of physics

[tater]

Snacks is merely a name for lumping all consumables into one item. As such, it's a perfectly fine LS mod (you can set it to kill them if they run out in the cfg). IFLS is similar, really. Those two are exactly what I'd want to see any stock system looking like, particularly for new players (adding a power requirement to snacks would be required, though). All systems for the foreseeable future will require some input of mass, if for no other reason than losses to space (EVA suit venting, leaking, etc). I love the compulsive detail of TACLS (in my RSS install), I get that, but it's not necessary to follow all the LS issues at that detail level, IMHO, it clutters up the UI for new players in particular.

All that matters in the end is what mass of "stuff" gets consumed per astronaut, per unit time. Assume the scrubbers are designed properly, etc. It's not like you can stuff extra kerbals into a station in an emergency, if it is built for 4, I would assume it is properly designed for 4.

[rynak]

Well, obviously people will have different preferences, depending on if they want a simulation, a game, or anything in-between.

From a gamedesign POV, most of the mods that target simulation/realism add a lot of bloat, since all the different ressources needed for lifesupport mostly do the same. Oh sure, there are CO2 scrubbers and stuff, but that simply is an excuse for micromanagement. Again, if your goal is simulation, then you might actually want that. On the other hand, if gamedesign has priority, then pretty much just one ressource is needed, to represent lifesupport.

Then, there's the matter of performance and ease of use. A simulation will require plenty of parts, while a single ressource pretty much just needs the equivalent of tanks.

I'm more into "gamey" aspects, and prefer to keep my part count down. So, i'm mostly watching interstellar to mature, then will kick all the parts and just create a configfile for a single procedural part. So yeah, all i really want is just kerbals consuming "fuel". Of course, there's the question of extraction/generation at bases, but that is a different topic that needs much more explanation.

[Cdr_Zeta]

Hello,

I am glad to see an exploration and continuation and improvements of LS design.

For me it was TACLIFE all the way due mostly in part to ease of use.

Now that I know daily conversion rate coding for resources, I am configuring TACLIFE for 3 types of support based on days of survival (a few days, 30+ days. 100+ days; the rest must be made selfsufficent); my only problem now is learning drymass/wetmass and seeing that this can be incorprated up front (so we can see changes in weight/mass etc); probly that is already happening but only if it is coded; I would like to see some customization in this are - devs take note; I am slow in some areas and this is one of them; that, TWR, the list goes on...but I am improving since I been with KSP for a couple years now I think.

Creativity and customization if people can do some recoding in the MODs is nice and in my opinion was of necessity; I have spent going on a month now to develop a resource use and management plan that is as realistic as possible; granted we really dont know anything about a Kerbals life span and equating them to humans might be considered, offensive; is there a discussion on the roleplay of a Kerbal's life and can we come to some agreement...some said they were plant matter...they do seem to breathe in as much Oxygen as they expel CO2; maybe there's a KSP Dev Wiki ona Kerbal.

Outside of that...I also added Snacks but not to the extent of the above - I am taking a look at that mass-issue or not since REP is affected I would like to see how things like courage/stupidity, REP are affected in MODS now.

My snacks are basically a survival tool for 4 Kerbals; they are produced from a by-product called BIOMASS (same MOD) and seeds; I am actually adding the Snack as a resource (havnt done that yet) but I dont know how to make it food yet; probly just a conversion code; and SNACKS in my game are only to be used in emergencies to a limit of 4 a day which reminds me I could incorproate it into the food supply after a certain limit is reached; not sure how to code that.

As for the rest I am planning on taking the mods and doing up my own code; for example using electric charge to make rocket parts isnt exactly rocket science !

One other thing - I am making a DeSalinator unit out of an MKS pod; it will take 35000 units a day (!!); filter out salt water to drinking water and salt, which is further refined to Na and Cl; the Sodium will be added later to preserve the MRE's (snacks or meals ready to eat) and the Chlorine is used in a process to make Monopropellant ! I am trying not to go too far overboard on resources; I hate resource games actually but some of it is inevitable and necessary.

I am live streaming my valiant efforts this morning ...

Cmdr Zeta

Edited March 4, 2015 by Cdr_Zeta

[Vorg]

The issue with snacks (well, more design choice) is that it is not mass-neutral, so it makes building closed loop (or near closed loop) systems impossible unless you ignore the laws of physics

There is a green house mod for snacks that adds 2 types of green houses for making snacks. Looks like one requires solar and the other requires electric but nether can use the other.

[RoverDude]

There is a green house mod for snacks that adds 2 types of green houses for making snacks. Looks like one requires solar and the other requires electric but nether can use the other.

Oh, I built one myself The bear is that without waste you have to either have mass magically appear, or figure out somewhere to get the mass needed. Less of an issue on a planet, more of an issue on a station. Now - I totally get that conservation of mass is not everyone's thing (maybe they throw the wrappers out the window?) it's more on the flip side where it made recyclers hard to create due to the imbalance.

Side note, I'll very likely be releasing a life support mod as well as a side project

[linuxgurugamer]

Side note, I'll very likely be releasing a life support mod as well as a side project

RoverDude, I look forward to seeing it. Please ping me when you so, and I'll update the first post in this thread

- - - Updated - - -

Well, obviously people will have different preferences, depending on if they want a simulation, a game, or anything in-between.

From a gamedesign POV, most of the mods that target simulation/realism add a lot of bloat, since all the different ressources needed for lifesupport mostly do the same. Oh sure, there are CO2 scrubbers and stuff, but that simply is an excuse for micromanagement. Again, if your goal is simulation, then you might actually want that. On the other hand, if gamedesign has priority, then pretty much just one ressource is needed, to represent lifesupport.

Then, there's the matter of performance and ease of use. A simulation will require plenty of parts, while a single ressource pretty much just needs the equivalent of tanks.

I'm more into "gamey" aspects, and prefer to keep my part count down. So, i'm mostly watching interstellar to mature, then will kick all the parts and just create a configfile for a single procedural part. So yeah, all i really want is just kerbals consuming "fuel". Of course, there's the question of extraction/generation at bases, but that is a different topic that needs much more explanation.

I would suggest that you do 2 parts, one to hold the "fuel", and another to recycle used "fuel"

This way you keep the parts down, but still have the ability to both use stored "fuel" and to recycle.

[tater]

100% closed loops aren't a thing, so I really don't see the issue. Honestly, once you achieve such a system, life support ceases to be a concern. Any system that would allow this would be sort of silly, IMO.

Right now they are working to increase the O2 recovery rate towards 75%. I've read about ideas for getting it as far as over 90%. Any life support system without consumables is pixie dust.

[RoverDude]

Pixie dust is a bit strong of a turn of phrase, but rock on and research into regenerative closed loop systems for colonization is kinda a thing. It's WAY off, and one hell of a problem, but hardly 'pixie dust'.

From a gameplay perspective, it's a lot less relevant for that trip to Minmus, and a lot more relevant when you get into mods (like mine) that deal with large scale colonization - in those circumstances, a path to closed loop is pretty much the capstone - and given the sheer tonnage of stuff it takes to make happen, something that can be achieved with a reasonable semblance of balance.

[tater]

I meant for the period we are messing with in KSP. It would be the very, very end (off the tree now by a ways) of the tech tree. I'm aware of regenerative systems. At least for Mars they have an atmosphere to borrow from for some consumables. The reality is that recovery rates while getting better, are nowhere near 100%, and as you say, won't be for a while.

More importantly, from a gameplay standpoint, it seems to defeat the entire purpose of having it in the first place. I would say that the purpose is to functionally place time limits upon manned missions without resupply.

I'm honestly fine with single-resource life support (plus power), and distill the recovery/waste/consumables to a single mass value for any added capability. So the habitable parts have the hardware (for recovery, etc), and a stock of consumables of X days duration based upon the part. Any additional LS parts would be consumables storage, assumed to use the mechanicals within the hab parts. All that matters is what mass per day per kerbal needs to be added into the system.

This at least provides a place for LS in the tech tree. Capsules have 100% internal LS, and they appear when they appear. It opens the door to later habitable parts can simply use resources at a lower rate (notably things like the Hitchhiker, or mod habs (rover dude's, porkjet's, etc)).

Edited March 4, 2015 by tater

[TCFirebird]

I think MKS/OKS does a good job of allowing permanent installations without negating the concern for life support. A basic life support MKS/OKS setup has about the same mass as a Kerbal century of TAC LS supplies (and is much more expensive), so for any out-and-back missions it makes more sense to just pack supplies.

Edited March 4, 2015 by TCFirebird

[RoverDude]

Yep, that's by design - I actually ran TAC-LS numbers to base it on, because unless you just want to have a permanent station, it makes more sense to lug it in. It goes closed loop not because it's where we are at technologically (or even close) but because that path has to be there for gameplay. But not in the form of a 10 ton greenhouse you just slap onto a ship

[tater]

Yep, that's by design - I actually ran TAC-LS numbers to base it on, because unless you just want to have a permanent station, it makes more sense to lug it in. It goes closed loop not because it's where we are at technologically (or even close) but because that path has to be there for gameplay. But not in the form of a 10 ton greenhouse you just slap onto a ship

I guess I must be missing something. The stock game has no life support, so it is identical to the path you think is required for good gameplay (life support not mattering because it is closed loop, at least at the end game). It seems like that creates a gameplay mechanic where life-support is a thing early in the game, where new players are already possibly struggling, then at the end, when they have everything, including ISRU, and can deal with most anything difficulty wise… life support ceases to be a thing that matters.

It seems like having life support always matter means that the end game---where you want manned missions farther from home---is actually more difficult from a planning POV. That seems like what I'd want to see, or am I missing something. With ISRU, you can at least get air and water, which is raw material for food, as well.

Edited March 5, 2015 by tater

[RoverDude]

There's a pretty big difference between being able to plunk a Kerbal on Duna in a single Mk1 capsule and run flag missions all day long with no life support, and having to drop about 200 tons of infrastructure to build a permanent base to get that same effect.

All about choice. Do I spend several missions and millions of funds building an orbital base on Jool to run all of my missions in that system, do I use unmanned probes, or do I add a few tons of life support and make it a round trip (or, just accept that the first Kerbal on eve will starve to death after planting the flag)?

So yes, having life support in place makes the end game more challenging, but there (IMO) needs to be a capstone where, after sufficient investment and infrastructure, your colonies can work on their own. Which makes sense, since this is a real problem NASA is trying to deal with (vs. spending tens of billions of dollars in logistical support and supply missions to a potential colony every year).

[tater]

I'm not against it getting very efficient as a late (end of tree level) thing. Seems like for a Jool base (orbital?) you could use ISRU to get any raw materials on a moon, then bring them to orbit (or drag a comet/asteroid there). Any ground base would have ISRU anyway, right, so it seems like it's only an issue for orbital stations.

I'm all for colonies as end game, but I'm not sure orbital stuff will ever not need inputs flown in, frankly. Heck, Hawaii needs them

Planetary bases would be self-sustaining well in advance of orbital stations, IMO (even with the weakest ISRU currently looked at).

[Vorg]

I Don't have a problem with a LS mod that requires oxy, food and water and requires removal of CO and other waste. What I don't want is to for some reason not be able to get a supply ship to some remote base or something else go wrong and all the kerbals die. Better if these little aliens just go into some deep hibernation until the problem is fixed. If it's something really critical like air, then just require some way to wake them up, like needing to manually pop open the solar panel if you forget and run out of power.

[RoverDude]

@Tater - it's a leap I take on the premise of fun. Managing a dozen stations and bases rapidly becomes non-fun. We can agree to disagree on whether that makes for good gameplay or not

I'd say though the sheer number of mods that try to do closed loop indicate that there's a pretty strong desire for it.