Devnote Tuesday: Wednesday Edition II

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, Errol said:

Is there a possibility that some planning to facilitate a none-save breaking transition from 1.1 with remote tech to post 1.2 with roverdude's comms instead of remote tech?

I ask for those of us that would like to start a career save with some sort of comms mechanic involved, but who might want to switch to the new system when it becomes available without having to loose a ton of craft/restart their save. 

This has been a major topic of discussion (how to integrate the new feature into existing saves).  What I can say is that any vessel without an appropriate antenna will not be completely shut out (i.e. it will fall back to the same limited control of vessels that are occluded, etc.). and since the science transmission is a buff not a nerf, you will not be out science either.   I would add that if you are using the current antennas, you will be in a lot better shape since direct comms is still enabled (think New Horizons) as well as relay systems (think Curiosity forwarding it's data to the MRO).

2 hours ago, Ser said:

Just can't get it, why RemoteTech isn't sufficient for you guys?

For me the new antenna system is alittle frightening with its simplified model and transparent bodies. And would the old RT be able to modify it to bring the old hardcore features back? Don't know... I've seen the buoyancy system that is not very good in 1.0.5 but it made Better Buoyancy mod obsolete. Sorry for my pessimism, it's the end of the workday now

There are no transparent bodies - they are quite solid.

2 hours ago, Redneck said:

so just release the antenna and telemetry system as a silent update a couple of months later

I think that would be anything but silent

10 minutes ago, razark said:

Frankly, it's too much for me.

I've used it.  It's great.  Does everything I could possibly want from a communications system.  However, last time I tried using it, it bogged my computer down way too much.  I'm guessing it probably has to do a lot of processing to track network nodes, compute paths, select shortest path to a command point, draw all the lines, and whatever else it may do.  So, while I like it and am not opposed to it, it's just not possible for me to run a communications network and fly a spacecraft, as well.

A lot of the design of the new system was based on minimizing the performance impact of maintaining the network graph.  My test case involved constantly refreshing a network graph with a few hundred active relays, and making sure there was no visible impact to performance (don't have the numbers handy, but overall it's very brisk).

[KerbonautInTraining]

6 minutes ago, Padishar said:

or even, horror of horrors, a new type of Kerbal cannon...

Danny is already plotting.

[TriggerAu]

4 hours ago, Gaarst said:

Dem PowerPoint KSPedia slides though

Also, about these, are the keys just parts of the images or do they actually reflect the control mapping ? (Playing with a non-English keyboard)

The end goal is that they be images of the keys and mapped to the configured settings. Currently however they show the default keys

 

3 hours ago, parameciumkid said:

You guys still need to hire a proofreader (and I still volunteer). The KSPedia slides you just released have several spelling errors:
- Slide 2: "propellent" should be "propellant"
- Slide 2: "vessels" should be "vessel's"
- Slide 2: There appear to be two spaces between "in" and "docking"
- Slide 2: Period missing after "object"
- Slide 3: Missing "in" between "Ore" and "an asteroid"
- Slide 3: "So you have to rendezvous..." is a fragment
- Slide 4: The opening sentence is a horrible run-on. Suggestion: "Ore can be found on planets in addition to within asteroids. On planets, mining is all about gathering intel."

The list goes on, but I don't want to make you guys feel bad. I assume these slides are rough drafts anyway, but I'm happy to help sort out the writing as needed.

This is very true @parameciumkid, for the tute texts we have been through QA twice and through a couple of proof readers too (plus all the play-throughs obviously). I'm sure that when we hit Exp testing more will be "found', especially when you add my local english versus people who have english as a secondary language.

Apologies on the spelling and grammar to all, I was excited to show we are making progress, and figured it was better to give people a taste - I hope everyone can take it that way. As in the comments these havent yet been through the first of the stages for proof reading, but I did check for things like strewth and G'Day mates   (Or the "This line needs to be replaced before release, but I cant remember what the extra point that I was going to make is").

Oh, and no-one mention the fact that I wrote Kerbol instead of Sun in one of the screens - that is a mistake on my part.

 

3 hours ago, Warzouz said:

As for the KSPedia, the blue background makes the reading easier than the black one (further more, it looks more "technical").

I like it too, was really happy when we got that one working. Technically the background is a separate layer in game with transparency on the image layer so we can put in differnt backgrounds without changing the content. That said its quite fun to create backgrounds that dont distract from the content too much, but thats a whole nother discussion really, and thanks for the feedback

[NoMrBond]

4 hours ago, SQUAD said:

the new (PBR) lighting model will also have to be pushed back to beyond 1.1

Does this mean a regression to the prior custom shaders or staying on the standard shader but not using the real time reflection?

What about reducing the time slicing for the reflection probe or the cubemap capture detail instead (or both)?

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

9 minutes ago, KerbonautInTraining said:

Danny is already plotting.

He'll have to be fast to beat me...

[Francois424]

1 hour ago, razark said:

Frankly, it's too much for me.

I've used it.  It's great.  Does everything I could possibly want from a communications system.  However, last time I tried using it, it bogged my computer down way too much.  I'm guessing it probably has to do a lot of processing to track network nodes, compute paths, select shortest path to a command point, draw all the lines, and whatever else it may do.  So, while I like it and am not opposed to it, it's just not possible for me to run a communications network and fly a spacecraft, as well.

Personally I always did 3 things with Remote Tech :

• Set all Antenna to be Omni-Directional
• Set all Antenna Range to be near infinity
• Modify the number of Transmitting station to cover any side of Kerbin. (South Pole, North Pole, KSC, and 3 others around the Equator

The rest I left intact...  Oh true I disabled the Signal Delay because I found it obnoxious to use with the way I played the game.  So yeah, 4 things.
I really liked it, and I **LOVED** the computer it provided.   I really wish you could pluck it out of Remote Tech and make it it's own mod, it would be right there with KER in my list.

[KerbonautInTraining]

1 minute ago, Mad Rocket Scientist said:

 

 

Art.

[LadyAthena]

3 hours ago, Jasper_f said:

Thank you for the excellent devnotes! This is hugely appreciated as always. I would like to say that this "small quality-of-life" change is VERY welcome indeed! I'd almost call it a "large quality-of-life feature" with its own poem.

 

I strongly agree with this statement. You should not rush this. Spelling errors, however minor, look bad and draw all the attention away from the information on the slides. Instead, players will focus on your typo (look at any academic giving a presentation and look at the audience whenever there is a spelling error on a slide). Of course I would offer to help if this would be in any way beneficial to you.

 

Best of luck with the push to 1.1 and congratulations to Taniwha and Nathan!

 

If you're getting your panties up in a bunch over some spelling errors, you're missing the big picture, and you kinda deserve all the agitation you're giving yourself. The errors are within reasonable range, it's not like they have extreme grammar issues, and massive spelling mistakes.

[Mad Rocket Scientist]

5 minutes ago, KerbonautInTraining said:

Art.

Just wait until I unveil the multi-stage version...

[Azimech]

LOL @MadRocketScientist! You're really fast with this one. Mod the stuff and I'm sure it will work.

[Azimech]

3 minutes ago, LadyAthena said:

 

If you're getting your panties up in a bunch over some spelling errors, you're missing the big picture, and you kinda deserve all the agitation you're giving yourself. The errors are within reasonable range, it's not like they have extreme grammar issues, and massive spelling mistakes.

Actually I believe it's not about having emotion but the rational insight the customer just doesn't like such sloppiness and it could create the feeling more things might be wrong or worse.

"All your base are belong to us." A classic example of commercial suicide in the most extreme form. Five years after releasing their product, Toaplan went bust in '94.

[razark]

46 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

A lot of the design of the new system was based on minimizing the performance impact of maintaining the network graph.  My test case involved constantly refreshing a network graph with a few hundred active relays, and making sure there was no visible impact to performance (don't have the numbers handy, but overall it's very brisk).

This makes me happy.  I did figure a built-in system would have a better chance of being less of a drag than a system bolted onto the side.  Maybe there's hope of a new Remote Tech that can hook into this system in a more efficient way.

 

29 minutes ago, Francois424 said:

Personally I always did 3 things with Remote Tech :

• Set all Antenna to be Omni-Directional
• Set all Antenna Range to be near infinity
• Modify the number of Transmitting station to cover any side of Kerbin. (South Pole, North Pole, KSC, and 3 others around the Equator

The rest I left intact...  Oh true I disabled the Signal Delay because I found it obnoxious to use with the way I played the game.  So yeah, 4 things.
I really liked it, and I **LOVED** the computer it provided.   I really wish you could pluck it out of Remote Tech and make it it's own mod, it would be right there with KER in my list.

It's been a while, so perhaps I'm missing something...
But if all the antennas can reach anywhere with no delay, what's left from Remote Tech besides the computer?  It seems like you've just described a way to remove Remote Tech from Remote tech.

The computer was nice, though.  I've gotten a new computer since I last tried.  I need to give it another shot and see if I can use it now.

[regex]

13 minutes ago, razark said:

It's been a while, so perhaps I'm missing something...
But if all the antennas can reach anywhere with no delay, what's left from Remote Tech besides the computer?

Occlusion.  IRL the biggest problems are occlusion and bandwidth, as I understand it (Transmission power?  Think that gets rolled into bandwidth...)  In KSP bandwidth doesn't really matter, although if we had KOS integrated with RT2 then bandwidth might matter but even then it's massively simplified compared to RL.  So basically occlusion.

Keep in mind that RT2 is not very realistic.  Neither are any of the other antenna mods for that matter.  They may make for compelling gameplay but they are not realistic.

Edited February 10, 2016 by regex

[godefroi]

36 minutes ago, Azimech said:

"All your base are belong to us." A classic example of commercial suicide in the most extreme form. Five years after releasing their product, Toaplan went bust in '94.

If only they'd have proofread their text, they'd still be with us...

14 minutes ago, regex said:

Occlusion.  IRL the biggest problems are occlusion and bandwidth, as I understand it (Transmission power?  Think that gets rolled into bandwidth...)  In KSP bandwidth doesn't really matter, although if we had KOS integrated with RT2 then bandwidth might matter but even then it's massively simplified compared to RL.  So basically occlusion.

Keep in mind that RT2 is not very realistic.  Neither are any of the other antenna mods for that matter.  They may make for compelling gameplay but they are not realistic.

My biggest beef with RT2 is that it sets things up such that the onboard computer needs to be smart (because of delays etc), but doesn't give us a smart onboard computer, nor let us (in the chair) act as the onboard computer. RT2 plus kOS, maybe, but I don't want to spend my KSP time programming flight computers, and certainly not in kOS's ugly script.

[Columbia]

If you could surface attach things to rover wheels.. You'd have a hinge, assuming the wheel physics are correct.

Just a thought. 

I'll be able to deal with the delay of all those things if it means getting 1.1 out as rushed efficiently as possible.

[Francois424]

33 minutes ago, razark said:

This makes me happy.  I did figure a built-in system would have a better chance of being less of a drag than a system bolted onto the side.  Maybe there's hope of a new Remote Tech that can hook into this system in a more efficient way.

 

It's been a while, so perhaps I'm missing something...
But if all the antennas can reach anywhere with no delay, what's left from Remote Tech besides the computer?  It seems like you've just described a way to remove Remote Tech from Remote tech.

The computer was nice, though.  I've gotten a new computer since I last tried.  I need to give it another shot and see if I can use it now.

Computer, Occlusion, still need to have power and a workable antenna...  You'd be surprised how many probes you can still lose if you have no coverage.
 

[Azimech]

5 minutes ago, Columbia said:

If you could surface attach things to rover wheels.. You'd have a hinge, assuming the wheel physics are correct.

Just a thought. 

I'll be able to deal with the delay of all those things if it means getting 1.1 out as rushed efficiently as possible.

We'll see, I assume not. But maybe we'll find a different, non stock solution.

[nli2work]

Re: PBR. Rendering path is a build setting and probably not easily ticked on/off in game. I was able to run Unity5 prefectly well with GTS450 from 4 years ago, with acceptable frame rates while pushing 3 levels of real-time reflection in the editor's game window. I don't think it will be a real impact on FPS as much as people fear. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by nli2work

[regex]

10 minutes ago, nli2work said:

Rendering path is a build setting and probably not easily ticked on/off in game. I was able to run Unity5 prefectly well with GTS450 from 4 years ago, with acceptable frame rates while pushing 3 levels of real-time reflection in the editor's game window. I don't think it will be a real impact on FPS as much as people fear. 

That's cool, I was mainly wondering for mods.  The Long Dark (Unity 5) runs pretty darn good on my Intel 4K GPU here but KSP has always been pretty crappy.  Of course, that's probably due to the PQS system which just utterly bogs down my system for some reason.

Anyway, nicer shadows and lights would be great.

29 minutes ago, godefroi said:

My biggest beef with RT2 is that it sets things up such that the onboard computer needs to be smart (because of delays etc), but doesn't give us a smart onboard computer, nor let us (in the chair) act as the onboard computer. RT2 plus kOS, maybe, but I don't want to spend my KSP time programming flight computers, and certainly not in kOS's ugly script.

This is why I don't even bother with RT2, even in RO/RP-0, and just pretend that the probe is programmed to perform the maneuvers I'm manually flying it with, especially since RT2 tends to turn my probes into "fish out of water" and thrash my hydrazine supply for literally no good reason.

Edited February 10, 2016 by regex

[Whirligig Girl]

Each week is just one step closer to Experimentals, just one step closer to the Hype Train arriving at the departure station.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, GregroxMun said:

Each week is just one step closer to Experimentals, just one step closer to the Hype Train arriving at the departure station.

I'm going to build a hype train in KSP now...

[Whirligig Girl]

Just now, CliftonM said:

I'm going to build a hype train in KSP now...

Base it off of the Gresley A3.

[Guest]

Just now, GregroxMun said:

Base it off of the Gresley A3.

OK.

[eddiew]

I for one am pleased to see some new features being pushed to 1.2. Smaller releases have a better chance of working

Thanks Squad, love you ^^

[Snark]

7 hours ago, SQUAD said:

there are several small quality-of-life improvements: vessels in the tracking station can be sorted in order of when their next manoeuvre node is set to occur

 

5 hours ago, Arsonide said:

A small clarification on this feature: the ETA of the next maneuver node is shown by slowly alternating it with the MET of the vessel as shown in the screenshot. Everything is still sorted by MET, so it's just a small quality of life feature to kind of grab the player's attention. It is not a sort

(emphasis added)

Thank you for the update, @Arsonide.  However, it's really more of a correction than a clarification-- it's a direct contradiction of what the dev notes say.

Not that I'm complaining, I'll take any improvement I can get ... and it is a nice touch, and I understand that an actual sort would likely be a bigger-ticket item, so I understand if it doesn't fit in 1.1's schedule.

However... maybe worth a correction to the actual devnotes post itself?

In terms of player experience, there's a world of difference between a sort and a highlight, and I'm concerned that a lot of players may just see the devnotes post without actually reading through the many pages of comments, so they might miss your correction, and get all excited (as I was) at the prospect of sortable ships, and then end up disappointed when 1.1 comes out and it doesn't have what they thought it would.