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Two titanic theories.


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https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/749712/titanic-fire-theory-channel-4-titanic-documentary

http://www.businessinsider.com/titanic-sinking-conspiracy-theories-2018-4#the-ship-was-attacked-by-a-u-boat-3

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/titanic-sinking-greatest-insurance-fraud-scheme

Not sure if this should be here or in the lounge. It could be a scientific discussion if the damage can be analysed.

I was reading this. There are two theories I've seen at the same time. This fire and the theory it was switched with the olympic and sunk for insurance or something.

I have no idea how credible either of these are. But if the fire theory is credible(as far as the damage location.) doesn't that make it really easy to assume the switch theory is also. I'm pretty sure the photos show(or the articles describe) the so called black spot is the same spot that the Olympic was hit. It's potentially a bit coincidental. It would seem easier to think they switched the olympic and titanic if the fire location is true and is the same location as the Olympics ramming damage. As opposed to them getting damage in the same spot near the same time. Especially with their supposed money problems and the stated fault on the Olympics side resulting in them not getting insurance for the repairs. Assuming that is true.

Does anyone know anything about boats(or metalergy.). Is it possible the titanics sinking was somehow an insurance thing?

 

Edited by Arugela
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A big cruise ship is not something you can hide in your sleeve to stealthily pop on the table. There would be a lot of people involved in this supposed switcheroo - and inevitably some of them would babble about it in the following years. Human nature :lol:

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We are talking england. Maybe they had enough oomph to stop it. Or if it was embarrasing enough to overall view of english trade maybe the crown stepped in or something. Enough political clout can make people quiet potentially.

Edited by Arugela
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45 minutes ago, Scotius said:

A big cruise ship is not something you can hide in your sleeve to stealthily pop on the table. There would be a lot of people involved in this supposed switcheroo - and inevitably some of them would babble about it in the following years. Human nature :lol:

Hmm... it's more credible than you'd think. Back then it'd be possible. It was launched before its maiden voyage, conducted sea trials days before. And construction of the two was happening almost in parallel.

Of course, possibility does not equal certainty. I'd say that the ship that sank was the Titanic. There are differences in the two ships.

Edited by Bill Phil
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1 hour ago, Bill Phil said:

Hmm... it's more credible than you'd think. Back then it'd be possible. It was launched before its maiden voyage, conducted sea trials days before. And construction of the two was happening almost in parallel.

Of course, possibility does not equal certainty. I'd say that the ship that sank was the Titanic. There are differences in the two ships. 

Plus different serial numbers on the parts, they found Titanic serials on the sunken bits.

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15 minutes ago, Nuke said:

a lot of people still died

That they did..

(I am tempted to say Leo di Caprio, but that would probably not be a good idea..)

Edited by Nivee~
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1 hour ago, Nivee~ said:

That they did..

(I am tempted to say Leo di Caprio, but that would probably not be a good idea..)

The bad idea was Rose not scooting over and making room!

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2 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Plus different serial numbers on the parts, they found Titanic serials on the sunken bits.

I don't think serial numbers on all parts was a thing back then.

4 hours ago, Arugela said:

We are talking england. Maybe they had enough oomph to stop it. Or if it was embarrasing enough to overall view of english trade maybe the crown stepped in or something. Enough political clout can make people quiet potentially.

No.

You should stop watching conspiracy videos on YouTube.

Edited by Nibb31
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The wreck of the Titanic has been studied quite hard by people who cannot possibly have been involved in a conspiracy. It makes these theories hypotheses quite unlikely.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ultimate Steve said:

serial numbers

They don't use them that long ago... You'd be lucky any of the nuts and bolts would fit to anything else !

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Spoiler
8 hours ago, YNM said:

Unsinkable

In traditions of Culture, they can name a ship "What can go wrong?"

Spoiler

If I ever build a giant ship, I'll name it "Pathetic". Just in case.

 

Edited by kerbiloid
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7 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

I don't think serial numbers on all parts was a thing back then.

4 hours ago, YNM said:

They don't use them that long ago... You'd be lucky any of the nuts and bolts would fit to anything else !

Not all parts did, but some things did, especially the boats. The Olympic's "serial" was 400, and the Titanic's was 401. This number was printed on many parts and has been found in parts in the wreck.

Image result for titanic 401 on the wreck

Image result for titanic 401 on the wreck

Image result for titanic 401

 

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Think of all the people involved if they had switched the ships around. And all of them had to stay quiet. After sinking the ship where thousands perished. And the hundreds involved in switching them out would all stay quiet and go “meh, not my problem?” No one would be eaten be their conscience? Unlikely.

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If there is any article written, or video made, that includes word in the description like "TRUTH REVEALED!!!" then I am 100% certain it is BS clickbait. I feel no need to ponder it further, no need to consider any other factors.

And that is a 100% scientifically valid position.

And considering the source material, quite a distasteful example at that.

Thing is, conspiracy theories hypotheses are always un-dis-provable. All evidence is subject to forgery, all witness testimony subject to coercion and corruption, and usually everything is covered under a huge blanket of time that has passed. It also helps if you choose something that has the vast majority of physical evidence out of reach, say under a few km of seawater or on the Moon.

***

Given the rise of the internet over the last couple of decades, they really need to teach this stuff at schools.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ultimate Steve said:

Not all parts did, but some things did, especially the boats.

And even if so, it'd still be a matter of fact that there was a boat that sank.

Just because it was only the prototype that's crashed doesn't mean the NTSB won't investigate.

Edited by YNM
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10 hours ago, p1t1o said:

The wreck of the Titanic has been studied quite hard by people who cannot possibly have been involved in a conspiracy. It makes these theories hypotheses quite unlikely.

Oh really?  DO WE KNOW WHERE JAMES CAMERON WAS ON THE NIGHT OF APRIL 14TH, 1912? 

Also, thread moved to the Lounge since it's unrelated to space. 

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2 hours ago, p1t1o said:

If there is any article written, or video made, that includes word in the description like "TRUTH REVEALED!!!" then I am 100% certain it is BS clickbait.

Hear, hear. Same with any headline in the news that includes the phrase "<noun> can't stop staring." I see at least one of these a day, all with a picture of a suggestively clad woman whose only claim to fame was likely a $50 check for posing for a few photo shoots for a royalty free photo studio.

Edited by 5thHorseman
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As far as the boat parts having signatures I think to technically be thorough you would have to say wether there were any replacable parts. they may have known about the serial numbers. So, hypothetically, you would have to look at if it be easy to switch those parts around and how long would it take? Which is part of one of the theories.

Also there are real life examples of people being silenced by groups with enough force to do so. This is not uncommon in certain environments. It's not out of the question in any way. Especially in an environment with poor people already being abused for their labor. The pieces are easily already in place at that point it can be assumed it is possible.

I don't think their consciences would necessarily be a problem. If they were in an abusive situation used for labor in general they may be more afraid for their lives. It would depend on the environment. If you have bigger things to worry about like that the conscience isn't necessarily a factor or even can be. They would likely come out later years or decades later. And if the situation is bad enough. Say, with something like a monarchy or company with enough experience it's known to some groups to keep things quite for a persons lifetime knowing that fact. It's a part of history in situation where a group has sufficient control and understanding of human behavior. I would say any monarchistic country is a potential place(even non monarchistic ones) at the beginning of the 19the century. It's just a matter of who and the situation they are in.

As to it being a, "truth revealed," thing.(I'm not even sure which source that is refering too. I just grabbed some random stuff with examples in it.) That is irrelevant to the answer or any answer. People can say an answer and think it's false and it is still true. People can say the right answer and have insufficient info and be wrong. The proper way is to explore something completely until you get all information and understand the information completely. So what you stated is not scientific. It's the opposite. All logic/reasoning is simply the gathering of all information until all is present and understood absolutely at which point you have an answer. That is something they are apparently failing to teach in schools now. That is the only time an answer is known at which point the answer is in front of you and your logic actually dictates your conclusion properly. AKA reason dictates itself. Everything else is assumption short of complete information and a guaranteed wrong answer. It doesn't matter the source. Ever! I don't even pay attention to the source as it is completely irrelevant. Whoever is holding that combination of points at this point in time is just random and irrelevant. And it changes constantly. It's just an example of an idea. It's just a formulation of points. I just googled looking for an example and found the best looking one or whatever I could find even if I could only find barebones.

The only way to ever get an answer is to completely explore an idea until you find out the truth. This only happens when you have collect all information and can understand it completely. So the only way is up/forward. It's very bad people do not understand this anymore and don't want to explore ideas like they used to. This is also what proper science is. It's the correct understanding of the pursuit of truth which is the same thing. It's simply learning something. The brain is basically just designed to gather as much info as possible for the ability to apply info and survive/function. All abilities of our brain(all forms of application) happen when enough info is present. It's is the same as the defintion of reason as it is the mechanical means our brain accomplishes it. It is the measure of proper understanding.

One way to look at it is you are not trying to make the conclusion fit the reasoning. The proper view is you are trying to get your reasoning to fit the conclusion. The conclusion is the constant as it is reality. You are attempting to get all info so your reasoning fits. That, as just stated, is only when you do get all info and you do completely absolutely thoroughly understand the info. All reasoning is testing if it matches. And you can only do that one way. Examining it more and adding more information and being more thorough to see if it's still true. This is because the brain can only use up to a max of the info already in it to use in a thought or examine an idea. So, to learn more and add more is the only way to test an idea. And if you ever find more info and it contradicts the answer you find out you are wrong. This means it takes endless relentless examining of anything and everything to ever find the truth. Actually more importantly the ability and means to get all of the information in your brain and be able to understand it completely which is much harder. The entire lesson of history is how we change society and give ourselves the room to live without learning as much each generation. Hence changes in society and eventually rise and fall. Ebb and flow. IE being self sufficient and not relying on others to trade for something is literally relying on more information to exist. IE, if you trade for something you don't to some extent need to learn to do something to get what you want/need. If you don't trade you absolutely have to. That is also the same as the tortoise and the hair. The tortoise is where all info comes from originally. It's self sufficiency/mass of info and the hair is, "given information," that increases over time as you rely on it increasingly. Hair stops because of lack of context. Tortoise continues on slowly because of more info to start the next thing. These are the two factors in all human behaviour. think if you have to learn something yourself from experience. The only way to get the answer is to get enough info and eventually you learn something. You also gather massive amount of info in all other direction trying to do this. Hence you have more info at each step. This is how people start out and survive in self sufficient societies or infrastructures. The haire is when you start giving info as you tend to rely on it. and we do over time and over generations. However many it takes to increase it relatively. You tend to not learn as much or have to stop to get more info and are limited because of lack of context. Because you got the info in a given form and only understand it based on your current understanding which is the context of other info in your brain. Eventually you loose info or context and can't apply it to other subjects and have to stop as you lack information for broader application. I otherwords you have to rest.

Edited by Arugela
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4 hours ago, Arugela said:

As far as the boat parts having signatures I think to technically be thorough you would have to say wether there were any replacable parts. they may have known about the serial numbers. So, hypothetically, you would have to look at if it be easy to switch those parts around and how long would it take? Which is part of one of the theories.

They're switching out the parts because after sinking the ship far out north in a particularly deep part of the Atlantic ocean, someone might, 100 years from now, have the technology to retrieve the wreckage. If I'm not mistaken I see a picture of one of the propellors with the number stamped on it. Or is that from a lifeboat? Because once they're going to swap the propellors of the ship, fixing the damage would probably have been the simpler solution. So we have two scenarios:

Scenario One
Titanic hits an iceberg and sinks. Tragedy.

Scenario Two
The Olympic and Titanic were switched and the Olympic was sunk as if it were the Titanic. The captain of the Titanic was in it, and to make it look real, decided to go down with the ship. Thousands of people involved in the switcheroo decided all to keep their mouth shut. To ensure that, if the wreckage were found with technology that was simply unimaginable during the time of the disaster (and only became viable nearly 100 years later), an extensive program was started to swap out parts between the two ships, notwithstanding the fact that such an operation was probably more expensive than repairing the Olympic in the first place. The whole scenario is laid out in a long rambling piece that carries an over-representation of the words "truth," "coincidence," and "reason." as well as CAPITALIZED and bold text.

Scenario One has the tremendous advantage of being simple and to the point.
Scenario Two has the challenge that it has a hard time overcoming the duck test ("if it swims like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably because...") because it really, really, really looks like some tinfoil-hat hoax theory.

In my eyes it's really simple; the second scenario is an extraordinary claim. And as it goes in science (remember where we are. We like science): extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Vague theories are not extraordinary evidence. Confessions recorded at people's deathbeds (preferably by a notary) are. Copies of work orders detailing the swapping of the parts are. The captain of the Titanic was found alive in South America. Those kind of things. None of that has happened. Because "they" (another excellent pointer towards the character of this theory) were able to keep track of all the thousands involved for many decades to keep their mouth shut? Because no one would be interested in an instant retirement fund in return for revealing the scoop of the century?. Or is all that evidence missing because it's not there, because it's "evidence" of something that simply didn't happen that way?

There's a couple of theories out there that we're all familiar with. About the shape of the earth. Or how certain events in July 1969 were recorded in a film studio. This one fits right in there. If you discard those theories as hoaxes, what makes this one believable?

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