Non-Binary Kerbals and Gender Non-conforming Kerbals In KSP2?

[Alastor the Kerbal Demon]

31 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

My tired 2am mind realized that the implication that she may be a trans man. Forgive me for the lapse in judgement, I'm just sick of humans. Caring about gender and all that pointless twaddle. Still a deluded tribal race. [snip] We're several millennia behind what a race capable of creating nuclear bombs should be.

2 AM?? Yikes, my brain would be melting at that point

Edited October 23, 2022 by Vanamonde

[BigStar Aerospace]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

We're several millennia behind what a race capable of creating nuclear bombs should be.

Nuclear bombs are good, if we are a worthy enough species to pass The Great Filter, then we shall. If not... We shall wipe our parasitic selves from the universe.

 

Oh my... I sound like an AI... or a super villain... Whelp, time to take over the universe and wipe out everything that doesn't suit my limited point of view.

Although, it's not technically possible for an AI to be evil. That's just a movie trope.

[kerbiloid]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:43 PM, Superfluous J said:

Val's [expletive]s to know they are fundamentally physically different to Jeb's [expletive]s

Spoiler

A male croco and a female croco.

Or vice versa.

Or maybe none.

Who knows... They aren't humans or even mammals.

And btw. As the Kerbals are highly likely a littoral life form, their bathroom/restroom/toilet is highly likely a large bowl where they swim, wash, and pee/poop at once.

That lonely human toilet in the KSC ruins doesn't look common in their usage.

On 10/22/2022 at 5:40 PM, t_v said:

a sliding scale where the face can be between the oval and rectangular shapes

What a sad example of gender stigmatization. So, the femkerbals must be always soft and oval? It's very disappointing.

On 10/22/2022 at 8:02 PM, Maple Kerman said:

relevant for multiplayer

 

Btw, a nice euphemism [snip]
"Offline Multiplayer Session".

On 10/22/2022 at 6:58 PM, Domonian said:

they're plants after all

To be green doesn't mean to be a plant. Frogs, crocodiles, and ecological activists other species confirm that.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Gargamel
Content snipped.

[ColdJ]

I have read 3 of the 4 pages, so probably this has already been said on the one I missed but here goes.

You are applying human baggage on genderless creatures. Your gender as a human is based on many factors, not just externally physical, but internally and your mental state/feelings. That is why letters keep being added to the current description of anyone who does not identify as heterosexual. You can't come up with enough boxes to throw humans into to try to pin down what they are, every human on the planet is an individual with their own unique way of being.

Kerbals do not have defined gender roles, they have nothing below the neck that is different. If you think Jeb is male or Val female then that is you projecting your way of thinking on them.

Kerbals are literally whatever you want them to be, if you want to imagine them being your unique mix of human then feel free to. There is nothing to say otherwise. Names are meaningless, any personal name can be used by anyone of any gender, there is nothing to say that only a man or a woman can use a certain name.

If you want more customizable Kerbals that is one thing, but don't confuse it with being a representation of humans in the world, otherwise you are making the mistake of all the bigots in the world, who think that a persons worth can be determined by skin colour, gender, ethnicity. You already know that that way of thinking is small minded. You are already represented in the KSP world because the Kerbal you choose to go to space is already whatever you want it to be.

 

[dok_377]

No. Just no. Don't want to be disrespectful, but keep your things to yourself. This game doesn't need any of this. 

[kerbiloid]

Tags.

Custom tags added to the Kerbal info in a person info window (btw why still none?).

P.S.
If talk about realism, then a Kerbal should also have "...phobia" slots.

[ColdJ]

4 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

(btw why still none?)

Because the more you put labels on something, the less possibilities of it being whatever you want it to be. The only important thing is how you think of it. And that is not something that needs to be programmed.

[adsii1970]

Due to a clerical Error, this thread was locked longer than intended.   Carry on with civil discussion. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Gargamel

[royying]

This game is all about killing Kerbals by explosion or strand them in deep space for decades, are you sure adding Non-Binary Kerbals is a good idea?

Edited October 26, 2022 by royying

[t_v]

On 10/23/2022 at 2:25 AM, ColdJ said:

You are applying human baggage on genderless creatures. Your gender as a human is based on many factors, not just externally physical, but internally and your mental state/feelings. That is why letters keep being added to the current description of anyone who does not identify as heterosexual. You can't come up with enough boxes to throw humans into to try to pin down what they are, every human on the planet is an individual with their own unique way of being.

The thing with this line of reasoning is that it doesn’t really affect anything, for a few reasons. 
 

First, kerbals do indeed represent male and female individuals, and that representation is pretty concrete. As another example of an alien that is oftentimes put into human gender: Clark Kent. While he may not actually be male, he essentially is one through his names , appearance,  diction, etc. If I claimed that Superman was meant to represent women as well as men, in the literal sense and not because of heroism, then I would have received a failing grade on my essay. Kerbals are less distinguished, but still are assigned gender through their facial features and names. It is easier to not assign gender to kerbals than to Clark, but the fact remains that the kerbals are explicitly put in two two boxes by the code, which are mapped to the two human sexes by the audience. 
 

Secondly, even if kerbals were not explicitly gendered and representative of humans, (you remember when they added Valentina and female kerbals) what is the point in not expanding the range of options? Currently the kerbals are put into two categories, why not erase those categories and have a singular group of “kerbals” with traits that can resemble male and female as they do now, but also everything in between and beyond? 
 

On 10/23/2022 at 3:16 AM, ColdJ said:

Because the more you put labels on something, the less possibilities of it being whatever you want it to be. The only important thing is how you think of it. And that is not something that needs to be programmed.

this is exactly the point: why put more categories in place, why even keep the two categories that are currently there, when just having one “kerbal” population would work better? Humans can’t simply be put into two boxes, and adding more boxes is futile, since categorizing people won’t be able to capture the complexity of a human or the diversity of humankind. Constricting kerbals in that way is constricting the kerbal worldview, and is giving up the opportunity for kerbals to have the diversity that has given humankind so much. 

[ColdJ]

@t_v I agree with the not adding boxes and happily only having one. To tell the truth if there is something in game that says one is male and the other female, then I somehow have missed it. When I go recruiting they are all in the same line and the only thing that differs is courage and stupidity.

Val was added not purely as a here you go, a female, but more a here you go, more than one country has been to space.

As for names, as I stated, unless you are in a very traditional place that adds a A or an O to the end of a name to assign gender then a name can be used by any one. And even when that A or O is added the core name is being used by both. Francesca, Francesco.

Ever hear of the actor Val Kilmer? He is a male and yet there you are, same name.

As for facial features, who says that all males have squared off heads and all females have round ones? Or short hair or pony tails? I was shopping the other day and there were more short haired females about then male ones and long hair and pony tails abounded in the male population.

I have 3D modeled Kerbals and checked out the original model, there is nothing under the suits to assign gender to. They are asexual and most likely just get more through cloning or spores.

The Superman analogy doesn't work because canon has superman fathering children with Lois and no mention that it was other than in the traditional manner, ergo he has male parts under his suit.

The people who made the game have not stressed that there is gender, even if they have called Jeb male and Val female in the past. It is left up to the player to decide. I have seen many things in my life. I have seen humans who may have female parts below but you would never know from looking at their heads and ones that have male parts below but look like female super models.

The world is an amazing place full of amazing people, and the only thing that matters is how we treat each other. Either side trying to separate people into labeled groups to ostracise and make it side against side is pointless and just keeping us in the dark ages. Give me a world when the only time anybody cares about gender or attraction is if they are hoping to date the person.

And as I stated before. More ways to personalise Kerbals would be great. Just don't go trying to label them. If I am going to space or building something with someone then who cares what their particular mix of human is? I only care that we will work as a team to make our world better.

 

 

[kerbiloid]

3 hours ago, royying said:

or strand them in deep space for decades

In a single-seat Mk1 cabin, where their gender means nothing for everybody, due to the absence of that everybody.

So, he can be of any gender and even add a hundred of them more, but nobody would know that anyway.

[Pthigrivi]

Folks, no one is trying to establish canon here. In many ways just the opposite. This is really just about how players write their own stories as they play the game, and making sure that what appears on the screen allows players to do that in the fullest way possible. Its the same reason you wouldn’t want the game to explicitly say “Your program is the United States of Kermerica” or “You are Spacecorp LLC” because different players like to imagine their roles and the story they’re playing out in different ways. All thats being talked about is the way Kerbals facial appearances are randomized. In KSP 1 there were exactly two models, but now there’s a lot more variability, which gives kerbals much more individual personality no matter how you choose to view them. I think thats great and only makes the game more emotionally engaging because Kerbals feel more like real social beings. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[ColdJ]

5 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

All thats being talked about is the way Kerbals facial appearances are randomized.

Which is fantastic. The only reason for the debate is the the title and opening post of this thread. Just go through the randomised kerbals till you get one that speaks to you and there you go, you are represented.

[Kerbart]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:00 AM, dok_377 said:

No. Just no. Don't want to be disrespectful, but keep your things to yourself. This game doesn't need any of this. 

And that's exactly it. I'm pretty sure the OP is asking for the option to modify Kerbals as they see fit. That doesn't mean every Kerbal (or any default Kerbal)  has to be that way. If you don't care about it, or even oppose it, don't modify your Kerbals. But it's nice when, if you feel this represents you, you can modify Rosita Kerman (she/her) to be flat-chested and have a beard. How would it affect anyone's enjoyment to the game if others have that option to make it more enjoyable to them?

[Pthigrivi]

10 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

Which is fantastic. The only reason for the debate is the the title and opening post of this thread. Just go through the randomised kerbals till you get one that speaks to you and there you go, you are represented.

Totally. They also mentioned adding a kind of Kerbal character creator which also sounds like a lot of fun. 

[kerbiloid]

One God-Emperor of Dune / Lord Darken Rahl (by default was male, but represents the player, so arbitrary) in stylish BadS suit of dried blood color. The Boss. Presence is optional.

A score of Fish Speakers / Mord-Sith  (female) in stylish BadS suits of dried blood color. Mistresses. Officers. Need seats in the escape capsules.

Randomly generated noname Kerbal serfs of nobody-cares-or-explicitly-male gender, in shabby burlap default white suits. Expendables. Don't need seats in the escape capsules.

That's enough, why complicate?

Edited October 26, 2022 by kerbiloid

[ColdJ]

18 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

How would it affect anyone's enjoyment to the game if others have that option to make it more enjoyable to them?

It wouldn't. (I would prefer we don't go adding bumps and lumps under the suits though, they are Kerbals, not humans.)

So simply this thread should have just been. "Can we have no restrictions on which facial features or hair styles go on which shaped heads please?" With the addition "And could we be free to mix and match in any way we want?"

[MechBFP]

1 hour ago, ColdJ said:

To tell the truth if there is something in game that says one is male and the other female, then I somehow have missed it.

Check out a save file in notepad. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by MechBFP

[ColdJ]

3 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Check out a save file in notepad. 

Ok.

Anywhere when playing the game itself, that doesn't require opening up game files?

[MechBFP]

1 minute ago, ColdJ said:

Ok.

Anywhere when playing the game itself, that doesn't require opening up game files?

Nope I don't believe so.

[regex]

It's pretty clear to me that Kerbals are gender-binary in KSP1 and having been around when the female kerbals were introduced I do recall them being labelled as such (and it absolutely not being some "let's add more country representation", that was on introduction, not everything leading up to it). So right now we have male and female kerbals simply due to their presentation, gender binary, full stop.

Aside from the obvious customization ask I would also like to see some kerbals fully randomized. They don't all have to be that way but I would like to see them appear in the recruiting roll on occassion. No labels need be added either; we don't have any now. This would be about presentation.

Also, we need astronauts with the ground crew hair, that would be cool.

Edited October 26, 2022 by regex

[kerbiloid]

6 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

Anywhere when playing the game itself, that doesn't require opening up game files?

In Kerbal generation/naming mods. There are sets for M and F Kerbals.

Edited October 26, 2022 by kerbiloid

[ColdJ]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

So right now we have male and female kerbals simply due tp their presentation, gender binary, full stop.

No naughty bits, no full stop. As said, I could put up human pictures where you wouldn't be able to tell who has what. Not saying that they didn't say a gender originally or that it is not in the save file because it made it simple for the programmer. Just that is not stressed and it is up to the individual player to believe what they want about their Kerbal.

8 minutes ago, regex said:

Aside from the obvious customization ask I would also like to see some kerbals fully randomized. They don't all have to be that way but I would like to see them appear in the recruiting roll on occassion. No labels need be added either; we don't have any now. This would be about presentation.

Completely fine with that and would be happy for it.

9 minutes ago, regex said:

Also, we need astronauts with the ground crew hair, that would be cool.

That would be cool.

9 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Nope I don't believe so.

Thank you.

6 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

In Kerbal generation/naming mods. There are sets for M and F Kerbals.

So in mods, not stock?

[KerikBalm]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:13 AM, Minmus Taster said:

with multiplayer being a thing now kerbals are basically your avatar

Is this confirmed? What about when you pilot a multi kerbal ship in multiplayer.

Personally, I never cared for the focus on Kerbal customization in the first place. This proposal is just more irrelevant diversion of resources from what I care about

On 10/22/2022 at 2:10 AM, Strawberry said:

Wouldnt them being aliens be an argument for them not conforming to "traditional" human norms instead of against? Anyways seems like a cute little detail and seems harmless. 

Well, people often speak about gender and sex (but from an etymology standpoint, the meanings are reversed)

We only ever see 1-2 biological sexes in a given species, for fundamental reasons that should be valid for aliens as well. Of course the biological sex could be like we see in Yeast, with mating type A and mating type Alpha, and the ability to switch mating type. Or as in C elegans, males and hemaphrodites, and so on.

On 10/22/2022 at 2:27 AM, Pthigrivi said:

I think this is great, and you may be in luck! They've put quite a bit of work into creating a much more diversified set of styles and looks together that don't seem altogether necessarily bound to any specific gender norm. We've seen a number of looks both in early previews and animations that don't seem to require or lean to heavily on cis/normative binaries. To a large degree the looks of individual kerbals appear to be randomized, and I don't see any reason why male or female needs to be codified by the code itself. Hopefully Kerbals can be a kind of aspirational stand-in for all of us, that Kerbals are Kerbals just as People are People. 

I also don't see why gender needs to be codified in the code itself. "Male" and "female" kerbals should behave the same. I don't object to allowing mixing of "male" and "female" features. Why not.

On 10/22/2022 at 3:05 AM, BigStar Aerospace said:

Gender is not a political subject, it is a social construct and social subject, it is only political if you make it political.

Gender is many non-mutually exclusive things. It is a political subject, that's just the reality

On 10/22/2022 at 9:35 PM, mcwaffles2003 said:

So does the game need to slap a "transgender" or "non-binary" sticker on some kerbals when gender and sex haven't even been in the game? Also:

And hey, for all we know Valentina has male parts...

Indeed, just allow Kerbal customization, with traits unrestricted by a male or female status, and be done with it. No more labelling. 

Its already something they've focused on, even though I really don't care if all my Kerbals are 100% identical clones, and Kerbal biology is such that they reproduce by asexual budding.

On 10/23/2022 at 2:13 AM, Strawberry said:

I do find the implication in this thread that kerbals with male features and male names are nondescript and non gendered, but kerbals with female features and female names are now suddenly descript and gendered very funny. 

Well, before Valentina, it was just a set of identical looking aliens. One could write off any resemblance to a certain human gender as coincidental/irrelevant.

Then valentina came in, and the parallels with human sex/gender became obvious