Expectations and Directions (Game Design) for KSP2 - Balancing what I hoped for vs what I think they're doing.

[Alexoff]

3 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

And then we did some science when we got there, and we’re using some of that science to get better at not dying and doing stuff up there, which in turn is going to drive us to develop better parts, etc…

From this place in more detail, please

[Wheehaw Kerman]

Just now, Alexoff said:

From this place in more detail, please

I’ll just point at Artemis, the Lunar Gateway, the new lunar EVA suits, all of which we developed using science and engineering lessons learn since Apollo to further the policy of going back to the Moon to do more stuff once we get there.  We didn’t go to the Moon in 1969 to learn how to build the SLS.

[Alexoff]

24 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

I’ll just point at Artemis, the Lunar Gateway, the new lunar EVA suits, all of which we developed using science and engineering lessons learn since Apollo to further the policy of going back to the Moon to do more stuff once we get there.  We didn’t go to the Moon in 1969 to learn how to build the SLS.

Is it true? Does NASA know about it?

[thewhitemetroid]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:46 AM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm coming to grips with the fact that KSP2 won't be what I expected.

I'll have to admit that I did not follow the progress of KSP2 as closely as you guys, I had hoped this would be an expansion of KSP in terms of science and exploration. Given how very little talk and hype has been communicated about science (and exploration) by those whom it matters to hear it from, I am feeling disheartened about what the end product will look like. If what you are describing in your post is the outcome of KSP2 then I'm going to be really disappointed (not that my disappointment matters). It sounds to me like the core of the game would revolve around resource extraction, and all other aspects of the game serve that purpose. Boring. I understand the need for colonies and some resources to make interstellar gameplay make sense, but this sounds way too far off from what excites me about KSP. This feels to me like going to a pizza joint for some pizza and they give me a hamburger...I love hamburgers but I came for pizza! If I wanted hamburgers I sure wouldn't have come here. Oh well, guess I'll just wait and see but I am firmly in the "not confident in the outlook here" camp.

[shdwlrd]

8 minutes ago, thewhitemetroid said:

Oh well, guess I'll just wait and see but I am firmly in the "not confident in the outlook here" camp.

I've been in that camp since I played KSP2 for the first time. I'm sure we will get everything on the road map. But will it be good enough is the real question. To borrow your pizza analogy, I'm wanting a deep dish but I'm thinking we'll end up with a cheap frozen pizza.

[herbal space program]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:57 AM, shdwlrd said:

I've been in that camp since I played KSP2 for the first time. I'm sure we will get everything on the road map. But will it be good enough is the real question. To borrow your pizza analogy, I'm wanting a deep dish but I'm thinking we'll end up with a cheap frozen pizza.

After my first 8 hours or so playing the game, I must say I'm having some misgivings myself.  I mean, some of the high-flown expectations that were bandied about in years-ago discussions around here were no doubt unrealistic, but what we have now after all this time really makes me wonder how long, if ever, it will take for us to get to something that really improves upon the original version. So much of the core functionality of KSP1 is still ether broken or missing in this long-awaited release that it's a little hard to maintain the faith that they are really going to keep up the commitment required to produce a worthy successor here. Still, I don't begrudge them my 50 bucks. It just seems now like it was a riskier investment than I ever imagined it would be before I actually played the game.

Edited May 20, 2023 by herbal space program
style

[RocketRockington]

3 hours ago, herbal space program said:

.  I mean, some of the high-flown expectations that were bandied about in years-ago discussions around here were no doubt unrealistic,

It wasn't based on nothing.  Rewatch early videos of Nate Simpson talking about the project and you'll see why people had such high expectations.

[VlonaldKerman]

3 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

Rewatch early videos of Nate Simpson talking about the project and you'll see why people had such high expectations.

I second this- rewatch the videos and post the relevant excerpts in the below thread! (shameless plug):

 

[shdwlrd]

7 hours ago, herbal space program said:

After my first 8 hours or so playing the game, I must say I'm having some misgivings myself.  I mean, some of the high-flown expectations that were bandied about in years-ago discussions around here were no doubt unrealistic, but what we have now after all this time really makes me wonder how long, if ever, it will take for us to get to something that really improves upon the original version. So much of the core functionality of KSP1 is still ether broken or missing in this long-awaited release that it's a little hard to maintain the faith that they are really going to keep up the commitment required to produce a worthy successor here. Still, I don't begrudge them my 50 bucks. It just seems now like it was a riskier investment than I ever imagined it would be before I actually played the game.

I do feel you on this. 

When EA and the road map was announced, my expectations dropped to somewhere in between a basically functional game to feature parity to KSP1. KSP2 released a little worse than I expected, but well beyond a basically functional game. Fair enough. But what did bother me is after 2 patches, basic game play bugs still remained.

My belief is we will eventually get a fully functional game. The question is when? Actions speak louder than words. And IG's actions are dictating that the dev time is going to take much longer than what was hinted to. (The only thing that rings true is IG is in it for the long game. The only problem is how long before PD and TTI say enough?)

3 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

It wasn't based on nothing.  Rewatch early videos of Nate Simpson talking about the project and you'll see why people had such high expectations.

Very true. Nate was doing his job, hyping up the game. Unfortunately, somewhere down the line, things broke down and no one decided to set the record straight until it was too late. (I forget who originally said this.) It's a classic case of over promising and under preforming.

Edited May 21, 2023 by shdwlrd

[Pthigrivi]

@JoeSchmuckatelli Yeah even though the game you describe in the body of your post is basically the game I've been dreaming of for a decade I would still like to see a rich, sciencey science system. While the anomalies we've seen are very cute I hope there's another layer that's about real chemistry and detection, maybe how that relates to geological history?

[Nicrose]

Idk about anyone else but the first description you gave of what the game is going to be sounds awesome personally. KSP mixed with Satisfactory? Let’s goooooooo! And the gameplay loop you mentioned sounds like a lot of fun! I truly hope the game makes it to that point one day 

[herbal space program]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:58 PM, RocketRockington said:

It wasn't based on nothing.  Rewatch early videos of Nate Simpson talking about the project and you'll see why people had such high expectations.

I didn't mean to suggest it was based on nothing. I wasn't exactly hanging on every word from the KSP2 devs back then, but I did look at some of those boffo videos and develop some fairly high expectations based on those myself. I'm just saying that based on that content, people (including me) were  getting really excited about possibilities that were probably never realistic.  Nonetheless, what we actually got in this EA release, which is basically unplayable, was a disappointment even to those who did not get carried away by the hype train. Clearly something happened that they are not telling us about, or else there is no way the core game engine, let alone all those whiz-bang features, would be in such a shoddy state two years hence. Even so, so long as they don't just take our money and run, I am willing to continue waiting for something that begins to live up to the promises.

[AtomicTech]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:46 AM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm coming to grips with the fact that KSP2 won't be what I expected.

  Hide contents

I had hoped for a revamp of the original, with a new engine, newly reworked physics system and basically a new version of KSP with a lot more emphasis on Science and exploration - a game that would be tied to how actual scientists and space agencies get us out to space, discover new worlds and one that would introduce all the cool, real-world extraterrestrial exploration and science humans do to a new generation of gamers.  I wanted to run a Space Program where my Kerbals would not just build rockets and zip around, but also observatories and labs where with each new tech unlock and visit to a CB I'd be learning something more about the Kerbolar Universe... and I wanted it grounded in very real science / science-like gameplay.

What I think we are getting is something quite different.  Based on what I've read (and read between the lines) - the game in its final form will be something like a crossover between KSP and Satisfactory.

It seems like 1.0 will offer us the basics of KSP-like flight features - where we can have spaceplanes flying around the atmospheres, and rockets visiting the various CBs.  That's obvious.  But Science won't be a core feature.  Instead, the entire game direction seems to be focused on the Colony Building, Resource Extraction and Supply Route mini-game.

So - here's what I foresee:  Science won't be 'contracts' like we had in KSP.  It also won't offer a major change to gameplay or even a real purpose for the player.  Instead, Science is merely a required feature for players to identify Resource Nodes on the various CBs and unlock extraction methods.  Eventually, with Colonies we get to start building places that can take advantage of those resources... but they won't be able to until the Resource Management part of the game is implemented.

1.0 will look like this: 

• Players do KSP things with a limited part list and science tools to get out to the local CBs and discover some resources that can help them get farther, faster.
• Player builds some on-site science outposts and maybe a small colony on one of the moons (or a fairly easy-to-get-to planet) to unlock extraction of the resource.  As part of this, Player builds a Colony Building dedicated to turning the extracted resource into fuel.
• Player builds and drives a rover to one of the Resource Nodes and sets up extraction buildings (prefabbed?) or builds a dedicated mining 'ship'.  The building or ship/rover starts extraction and storage of the Resource.
• Player builds a different rover to transport the resources to the Colony.  Think 'truck'.  Player manually drives the route from ISRE to the appropriate Colony building to offload and back again to the extraction site, setting / recording the route.  Once established, the player can automate the route.
• Player makes sure the Colony Fuel Conversion building is able to transfer fuel to the launch site and any ships there are able to take on resources / fuel and leave the Colony.
• Player builds a rocket at the Colony VAB to ship the fuel somewhere.  Either back to Kerbin (early) or to an orbital Colony VAB (Mid-Late).  This is where ship / part sizes start to matter.  Player initially likely only has small to medium parts which will be a limiting factor.
• Player flies the route from the ISRE/U Colony to the destination (KSC/Orbital Colony-VAB) and drops off the fuel and returns.  Again, recording the route allows the player to automate the route for constant fuel transfer.  This likely has to be done with each 'class' or 'size' of ship/parts the player unlocks; meaning only small amounts of fuel/resources will transfer initially... and then with each unlock the Player can continuously upgrade their resource extraction and fuel routes until they are producing enough to build really big ships.
• Repeat for the farther worlds within the Kerbolar system.  Eventually the player has a fully functional multi-world Colony and ISRU system feeding a fuel-based transfer economy that allows them to build a REALLY BIG ORBITAL VAB - and their first Interstellar Ship.
• The Player then gets to visit the other systems.
• Rinse, Repeat.

If I'm correct about this... it will be a cool game.  Not what I was expecting - but it could work out really well.

 

I'd still play that

It actually sounds pretty cool!

27 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

Even so, so long as they don't just take our money and run, I am willing to continue waiting for something that begins to live up to the promises.

That's what I'm doing!

I'll keep chugging along in KSP waiting for the day I can play KSP 2