[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[Jiraiyah]

4 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Except in your post above, you didn't say that.  You said Civilian Population!!!  Yes it is only a 3 letter distinction, but if people are unaware that is a mod it makes a big difference.

And since it is a mod already, why not go ahead and use it?

 

YOU could modify your game, the mods etc to fit you particular gaming experience.

Or YOU could make a mod that bridges the gap between standard USI-LS and the needs of an interstellar generation ship.

The big question is, why would @RoverDude be on the hook to work on aspects of his mod for that he himself never would use?

Well, here is the problem, USI life support is much more complex compared to other mods. For example, let's say that I would like to write the MM patch for my own personal needs, what should I do for converting one resource to the other?

 

We know that one kerbal uses 10.8 life support unit per day,

the nomomatics, use 1 fertilizer and 10 mulch, to produce 11 life support and

1 life support gives 1 mulch

 

Now looking into this equation, if I would like to use mulch and close the cycle?  How should be the converting ratio? we are going to use one mulch for example to produce 0.1 fertilizer ....... but.... with the above info, I am not sure if we really have closed the cycle truely or we just did a bad ratio convertions, that is why I am asking here and called for rover dude for help. I didn't meant for him to really change anything in the base mod, but maybe a new simple part mod with one or two parts that will barely need any maintenance in future? or at the very least help someone like me with information on a correct ratio to close the gap.

 

I was thinking of using the same model Soylent mod is using (it's one of those old MIT parts that is circulating around) for 1 part per 1 kerbal base and the model from seti green house (another MIT part) for more than one kerbal per part. But again, I am not sure about the ratio of resources here and what to use as the base to produce the needed fertilizer.

[goldenpsp]

6 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

that is why I am asking here and called for rover dude for help

Yes maybe however

Quote

Now "YOU" tell me,

Quote

HOW THE HELL should I re-supply it

When you use language like that, it sounds a wee bit more demanding than a simple ask.

That being said, again how is this @RoverDude's responsibility.  Personally I'd say if YOU want a simple part mod to bridge this gap, go make it.  All of the recycler math for USI-LS is already posted on it's github wiki.  I'm sure it will not be a trivial task but I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

 

[Jiraiyah]

8 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Yes maybe however

When you use language like that, it sounds a wee bit more demanding than a simple ask.

That being said, again how is this @RoverDude's responsibility.  Personally I'd say if YOU want a simple part mod to bridge this gap, go make it.  All of the recycler math for USI-LS is already posted on it's github wiki.  I'm sure it will not be a trivial task but I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

 

oh sorry sorry, really sorry, I didn't meant to be demanding in any form, I'm just frustrated because I have asked for this for a long time, and of course it's not his responsibility, but still, he is the heart of this mod and knows better than anyone else what would be a good conversion way.

The math you are indicating, is exactly what i just wrote above..

 

If we would want to go with the production/usage ratio.... for 1 kerbal in 1 day.... we would have extra 0.8 mulch and here is how it's being calculated :

 

1 kerbal per day uses 10.8 ls.... 1 ls produces 1 mulch.... so at the end of the day we have 10.8 mulch.... the conversion units use 10 of this mulch combined with 1 fertilizer to produce another 11 unit of life support.... now here we get an extra 0.2 life support....

 

the easiest way of converting,... would be to use this 0.8 mulch,... combined with 0.2 life support.... and maybe huge amount of electric charge (have no idea how much) and produce 1 fertilizer back ! if we read the numbers this would close the cycle of course but I'm not sure if it would brake the game in long flight run from one star system to another or not,... and also... i am not sure if this ratio would make the game ok to play or it would make the game soooo easy that it wouldn't make any sense to have it.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jiraiyah

[goldenpsp]

16 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

if we read the numbers this would close the cycle of course but I'm not sure if it would brake the game in long flight run from one star system to another or not,... and also... i am not sure if this ratio would make the game ok to play or it would make the game soooo easy that it wouldn't make any sense to have it.

All good questions.  And as you are obviously interested in this again I'd say, go make something.  Test it out.  Tweak it. and find out.

[JadeOfMaar]

@Jiraiyah To keep things brief: What you're looking for is well within your power as an experienced mod maker to produce, and in this thread, your request seems very niche so it's on you, not RoverDude, to pave the way for that feature. I've seen a few folks who adore both GU and MKS (and a couple of folks who don't like warp drives) so there is possibly already a great audience waiting for you once you produce the thing that you've been asking for. I'm sorry that you've wasted your time. I urge you to not waste any more, and make your mod.

Long story: (And pardon me. There may be some unintended bitterness) The USI LS ecosystem is not designed with generation ships in mind, that's not how RoverDude plays (...I honestly can't see him installing any planet mods) so expect that he won't answer you favorably. I've seen or heard him hint at possibly making an alternative to DeepFreeze, and he owns a warp drive mod, so you can see the angle of his approach to keeping kerbals alive while crossing the stars. He likely also feels very strongly against having a closed loop solution, as it can't be done IRL and may cause the LS to largely become just a tax on your CPU. RoverDude will likely use DeepFreeze for himself and have his crew and colonists sleep for the ride, whether or not he uses warp for an interstellar ship (and he will likely use warp). I really don't see him being the type who will spare the time and energy to mind a single ship crossing GU's distances at sub-light speeds.

I had my own great desire for an extension to USI LS way back... Mk2 and Mk3 parts that do everything. I didn't think to come and ask for them to happen... I made them. And that was my first parts mod.

[Jiraiyah]

2 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@Jiraiyah To keep things brief: What you're looking for is well within your power as an experienced mod maker to produce, and in this thread, your request seems very niche so it's on you, not RoverDude, to pave the way for that feature. I've seen a few folks who adore both GU and MKS (and a couple of folks who don't like warp drives) so there is possibly already a great audience waiting for you once you produce the thing that you've been asking for. I'm sorry that you've wasted your time. I urge you to not waste any more, and make your mod.

Long story: (And pardon me. There may be some unintended bitterness) The USI LS ecosystem is not designed with generation ships in mind, that's not how RoverDude plays (...I honestly can't see him installing any planet mods) so expect that he won't answer you favorably. I've seen or heard him hint at possibly making an alternative to DeepFreeze, and he owns a warp drive mod, so you can see the angle of his approach to keeping kerbals alive while crossing the stars. He likely also feels very strongly against having a closed loop solution, as it can't be done IRL and may cause the LS to largely become just a tax on your CPU. RoverDude will likely use DeepFreeze for himself and have his crew and colonists sleep for the ride, whether or not he uses warp for an interstellar ship (and he will likely use warp). I really don't see him being the type who will spare the time and energy to mind a single ship crossing GU's distances at sub-light speeds.

I had my own great desire for an extension to USI LS way back... Mk2 and Mk3 parts that do everything. I didn't think to come and ask for them to happen... I made them. And that was my first parts mod.

Reading through all of that, you are absolutely right in many things :

1- rover dude would use warp,... but with 100 people (civils) on board, it would be ..... :"D

2- I wasted my time near a year waiting for something like this and you are right there again

3- i can sit back and create a mod just with available parts and tweaking textures and through the MM patches out there.

thanks for taking the stick and hit me with it lightly, I was looking for help to make sure values and resources would be right, but after reading your post and the previous ones.... looks like people who would play generation ships, are not that many at least in this thread post. oh well as you and goldenpsp said, i will go with try and see.

at  the very least, give me an idea @JadeOfMaar...

if i would like to make electric charge a challenge for the convertor part but not impossible, what would be the suggested usage for this convertor? the part would be 1 part per 1 kerbal on the ship

[JadeOfMaar]

2 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

1- rover dude would use warp,... but with 100 people (civils) on board, it would be ..... :"D

oh yes definitely. If his ship is big enough in order to support that many and the industry required to keep them fed and happy, and any large shuttles, expect to suddenly see a 5m USI warp drive.

[RoverDude]

Ok looks like a chunk to catch up on.  @Jiraiyah

1.  Generation ships are totally doable.   They are just going to be really big.  Probably ATLAS level parts, massive amounts of fertilizer, and lots of recyclers.  Which makes sense.  It's a big deal.   The ships will be massive.  Consider what it would actually take to keep people alive on a generation ship.  It's a lot of stuff and a lot of your launch mass.

2.  There will never be closed loop life support built into USI-LS (or any USI mod) for a multitude of gameplay reasons.  Granted, if you WANTED closed loop life support, it's a pretty trivial patch.  You could make closed loop for 1,000,000 kerbals and slap it on a cubic octag and call it a day.

3.  I do sometimes play with planet packs

 

[Jiraiyah]

6 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Ok looks like a chunk to catch up on.  @Jiraiyah

1.  Generation ships are totally doable.   They are just going to be really big.  Probably ATLAS level parts, massive amounts of fertilizer, and lots of recyclers.  Which makes sense.  It's a big deal.   The ships will be massive.  Consider what it would actually take to keep people alive on a generation ship.  It's a lot of stuff and a lot of your launch mass.

2.  There will never be closed loop life support built into USI-LS (or any USI mod) for a multitude of gameplay reasons.  Granted, if you WANTED closed loop life support, it's a pretty trivial patch.  You could make closed loop for 1,000,000 kerbals and slap it on a cubic octag and call it a day.

3.  I do sometimes play with planet packs

 

I'm totally ok with doing the patch myself and keep it for my own game play, how ever, would you be kind enough and confirm if the math I did for 0.8 mulch + 0.2 life support = 1 fertilizer, would be the correct ratio and result?

[RoverDude]

2 minutes ago, Jiraiyah said:

I'm totally ok with doing the patch myself and keep it for my own game play, how ever, would you be kind enough and confirm if the math I did for 0.8 mulch + 0.2 life support = 1 fertilizer, would be the correct ratio and result?

You can access and even change all of the info from the space center screen.   Sorry, I am juggling cats right now so I would recommend testing in your save and seeing where it takes you.

 

[goldenpsp]

8 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Sorry, I am juggling cats right now

That's a video I'd watch!

[Atlas Gaming]

14 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

Yes maybe however

When you use language like that, it sounds a wee bit more demanding than a simple ask.

That being said, again how is this @RoverDude's responsibility.  Personally I'd say if YOU want a simple part mod to bridge this gap, go make it.  All of the recycler math for USI-LS is already posted on it's github wiki.  I'm sure it will not be a trivial task but I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

 

Try Kerbalism... getting even a 1 year voyage is almost guaranteed to kill kerbals due to lack of resources, radiation storms, and failures. USI is a cakewalk compared to that! 

Every mod has a niche that it addresses... If your niche is generation ships, look for mods that focus on that or learn to code and make one that we can all play with!

[Rig_Borin]

A little observation. 1 kerbal eats 10.8 meals in 1 day. 1 meal weighs 1 kilogram. Therefore, 1 kerbal eats 10.8 kilograms of food per day (6 hours). How you think, there is too much food for one small kerbal?

[Atlas Gaming]

Just now, Rig_Borin said:

there is too much food for one small kerbal

Are you kidding? Kerbals eat snacks every 30 minutes 6 hours a day! You are actually skipping 1 meal with USI! Don't be trying to starve our little green critters!

[Rig_Borin]

13 minutes ago, Atlas Gaming said:

Are you kidding? Kerbals eat snacks every 30 minutes 6 hours a day! You are actually skipping 1 meal with USI! Don't be trying to starve our little green critters!

No no. I'm not trying to starve the little green critters! I like them!

As I remember, in Snacks with default settings, 1 kerbal eats 3 meals a day, if random meals are turned on, he can eat 2 times more, up to 6 meals. It turns out 3-6 kg per day. So I asked that question.

[Atlas Gaming]

LOL... I didn't mean the mod snacks... I mean that's how often they look like they are hungry   Kerbals need to eat their weight in snacks every 4 days! The bigger question is why they don't produce more mulch?!

[TheDog]

29 minutes ago, Rig_Borin said:

A little observation. 1 kerbal eats 10.8 meals in 1 day. 1 meal weighs 1 kilogram. Therefore, 1 kerbal eats 10.8 kilograms of food per day (6 hours). How you think, there is too much food for one small kerbal?

At least in USILS this represents the complete LifeSupport supplies:  meals, water, oxygen, toothpaste, ...

I find it more unrealistic (too easy) that supplies->mulch is mass conserving. But it is a reasonable abstraction.

[Rig_Borin]

5 minutes ago, TheDog said:

At least in USILS this represents the complete LifeSupport supplies:  meals, water, oxygen, toothpaste, ...

You are probably right. I shouldn't think of supplies as food only.

[RoverDude]

5 hours ago, Rig_Borin said:

A little observation. 1 kerbal eats 10.8 meals in 1 day. 1 meal weighs 1 kilogram. Therefore, 1 kerbal eats 10.8 kilograms of food per day (6 hours). How you think, there is too much food for one small kerbal?

See below   Supplies is everything.

5 hours ago, TheDog said:

At least in USILS this represents the complete LifeSupport supplies:  meals, water, oxygen, toothpaste, ...

I find it more unrealistic (too easy) that supplies->mulch is mass conserving. But it is a reasonable abstraction.

Mulch is mostly waste water - which is super easy to clean (and the gunk you filter can be used to grow plants and whatnot).  It's why the recyclers work on reduced consumption, and the greenhouse takes what's left over (with a little help of external mass) to make supplies.  It's also why USI-LS cannot support a closed loop.   The only reason I don't clip out some of the mass in 'mulch' is because at the end of the day, all conversions should be massless.

That being said, if there was ever a USILS+ it would break out the components.  USI WOLF already kinda does this, and not only has the concept of water/food/oxygen but also concepts of maintenance, habitation, labs, etc. - which works great at a larger scale.  USI-LS keeps the scale in the small since most of the time, with TAC-LS, I'd just slap on the same three canisters, and nothing really changed in my mission profile except for some extra parts (except for a few extreme edge cases).

[eberkain]

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

USI WOLF 

What now? Did I miss a mod release? 

[TBenz]

6 minutes ago, eberkain said:

What now? Did I miss a mod release? 

WOLF is a new feature in MKS that allows for more abstract base building and logistics that doesn't have the same limitations as actually leaving dozens of vessels with stock resource loops everywhere.

Edited December 24, 2020 by TBenz

[Brigadier]

25 minutes ago, eberkain said:

What now? Did I miss a mod release? 

Basically, yes

[Rig_Borin]

When the kerbal is in EVA, the timer only displays minutes and seconds, not hours. Is that how it should be?

And if the ship runs out of supplies, a few time passes, then the kerbal leaves the ship and returns, the timer shows 15 days again. But if you wait, the kerbal grouchy at correct time (after really 15 days from lost supplies, not as shows).

[RoverDude]

7 minutes ago, Rig_Borin said:

When the kerbal is in EVA, the timer only displays minutes and seconds, not hours. Is that how it should be?

And if the ship runs out of supplies, a few time passes, then the kerbal leaves the ship and returns, the timer shows 15 days again. But if you wait, the kerbal grouchy at correct time (after really 15 days from lost supplies, not as shows).

Probably correct - EVA timer is pretty short.  The other is likely a UI bug.

[RoverDude]

Just gonna leave this here....