[1.2 - 1.4] Real Scale Boosters, 0.16 (2018-03-12)

[MainSailor]

3 hours ago, VenomousRequiem said:

Yeah, then we could easily make Saturn Multibody out of that. 

@NecroBones I guess there's a lot of demand for ETS stuff nowadays.

I love the concept of ETS - rockets that could have been. And the amount of time that those guys have put into discussing the actual details (how much thrust could an improved F-1 with 70-80's tech, etc.) is phenomenal.

I've been working on a couple of textures for pParts, but you can't build the same level of rockets as you can with proper models like NecroBones's (Bones'? Boneses?)

[NecroBones]

 

Probably needs another tweak or two, but here's a Castor:

 

[NecroBones]

On 3/2/2016 at 9:04 AM, VenomousRequiem said:

Yeah, then we could easily make Saturn Multibody out of that. 

 

Speaking of the Saturn Multibody. Does anyone know off-hand why those are shown with orange tanks, even though they're (presumably) still kerosene-based? I'm tempted to look into making a few of the other larger Saturn tanks too, but I'd have thought these would also be black-&-white. If I want to add an orange tank, then it'll either need an additional texture, or it'll have to borrow from the STS ET or something. When they're the same color, it's a lot easier to re-use textures.

 

[VenomousRequiem]

17 minutes ago, NecroBones said:

 

Speaking of the Saturn Multibody. Does anyone know off-hand why those are shown with orange tanks, even though they're (presumably) still kerosene-based? I'm tempted to look into making a few of the other larger Saturn tanks too, but I'd have thought these would also be black-&-white. If I want to add an orange tank, then it'll either need an additional texture, or it'll have to borrow from the STS ET or something. When they're the same color, it's a lot easier to re-use textures.

 

Yeah, the F-1a engine of the Saturn Ic and Saturn Multibody are still not cryogenic, so I don't know why it's orange.

 

[NecroBones]

1 minute ago, VenomousRequiem said:

Yeah, the F-1a engine of the Saturn Ic and Saturn Multibody are still not cryogenic, so I don't know why it's orange.

 

Maybe the artist just thought it looked cool, or more modern. Dunno. I'm tempted to just make them like the others, mostly white with some black.

 

[KerbonautInTraining]

10 minutes ago, VenomousRequiem said:

Yeah, the F-1a engine of the Saturn Ic and Saturn Multibody are still not cryogenic, so I don't know why it's orange.

Does "cryogenic" only apply to LH2/LOX engines? Last time I checked, LOX is pretty cold 

[NecroBones]

46 minutes ago, KerbonautInTraining said:

Does "cryogenic" only apply to LH2/LOX engines? Last time I checked, LOX is pretty cold 

 

True, but then I'd expect the orange only to be applied to the LOX tank portion. No sense in adding hundreds of kg of foam to the rest of the structure. Dunno.

[MainSailor]

2 hours ago, NecroBones said:

 

Speaking of the Saturn Multibody. Does anyone know off-hand why those are shown with orange tanks, even though they're (presumably) still kerosene-based? I'm tempted to look into making a few of the other larger Saturn tanks too, but I'd have thought these would also be black-&-white. If I want to add an orange tank, then it'll either need an additional texture, or it'll have to borrow from the STS ET or something. When they're the same color, it's a lot easier to re-use textures.

 

Not sure. Maybe to stand out as a new series artistically? I only did my pParts texture in orange because it looked cool. 

The S-IC LOX tank had a layer of insulation sprayed onto the tank itself, not the structural skin of the stage. I can't imagine a Saturn I would be any different.

Edit: nope, I was wrong. Was thinking about the phenolic coating on the common intertank panel on the S-II. Reading design notes on NASA's history site would indicate the S-IC LOX tank was simply painted.

Edited March 3, 2016 by MainSailor

[NathanKell]

It's possible that (I.e. I think, but I don't recall for sure) when @nixonshead did the render he made only the LOX portion of the tank cryo-orange (and having the full tank orange was an error in the original drafting). Pinging @e of pi and @Workable Goblin in case they might want to weigh in.

[Workable Goblin]

47 minutes ago, NathanKell said:

It's possible that (I.e. I think, but I don't recall for sure) when @nixonshead did the render he made only the LOX portion of the tank cryo-orange (and having the full tank orange was an error in the original drafting). Pinging @e of pi and @Workable Goblin in case they might want to weigh in.

Our main thought, from what I recall, was that NASA would be discarding the optical tracking system that they used during Apollo by the late 1970s or early 1980s (as they historically did) and then stop painting the tanks to save weight (as they historically did). I don't think either of us thought about the foam or lack of on the kerosene tank, so if that shouldn't be cryo orange that's probably an error on our parts. @eofpi might remember better, though.

[NecroBones]

31 minutes ago, Workable Goblin said:

Our main thought, from what I recall, was that NASA would be discarding the optical tracking system that they used during Apollo by the late 1970s or early 1980s (as they historically did) and then stop painting the tanks to save weight (as they historically did). I don't think either of us thought about the foam or lack of on the kerosene tank, so if that shouldn't be cryo orange that's probably an error on our parts. @eofpi might remember better, though.

 

OK cool, that makes sense. But yeah, it would only really make sense to put the foam on the LOX portion, and have just white paint on the intertank structure and RP-1/kerosene portion. Maybe for the model I'll treat it as a rescaled S-IC and try to get some orange on that upper half.

 

 

[Jodo42]

As someone new to ETS, could someone explain how the 1C varies from the S-IC? Is there a reason for the similarity of the names? From what I can see it has only 1 lower stage engine. Which engine? Why is there a version with a taller lower stage? It seems this version is used in a 3-core Saturn-derived heavy lifter.

 

EDIT:@NathanKell @NecroBones So let's see if I have this right. Originally, there were plans for 5 Saturn vehicles, C-1, C-2, C-3, C-4, and C-5. The C-1 and the C-5 were the only two to fly, which were later referred to as the Saturn I (earlier version)/ Saturn IB (upgraded version), and the Saturn V, correspondingly.

The Saturn I had two stages. The first stage was referred to as the S-1, and was powered by 8 H-1 engines. The second stage utilized the S-IV, which was to be the fourth stage of the C-5, hence the IV. The S-IV used 6 RL-10 engines. 

The Saturn IB was an upgraded version of the Saturn I. It utilized the S-IB first stage, a slightly taller and wider S-I (Question: is there never an "A" designation for a stage? ie it goes straight from just the # to #B?). The second stage was the S-IVB, a significantly larger stage than the S-1, and utilizing only 1 J-2 engine.

At some point it was decided that a. The C-2, C-3, and C-4 would not fly and b. the S-IVB would be used as the third stage for the C-5, causing the S-III stage to never exist.

The C-2, based on a S-I first stage, S-II second stage, S-IVB third stage, and S-V (now known as Centaur) as a fourth stage, was dropped in favor of the C-3, which would have utilized an S-IB-2 first stage, which was a shorter S-IC powered by 2 F-1 engines (the S-IC was a derivative of this stage?), an S-II-C3 second stage, an S-II stage modified to run on 4 J-2s instead of 5, and the S-IV as a third stage (Question: where the hell did this name come from? Why the C3? Is this referring to the fact that this stage was custom bulit for the C-3 vehicle?). The C-3 would have been used in an Earth Orbit Rendezvous Apollo mission. 4 or 5 C-3 launches would have been needed for a successful mission of this style.

The C-4, however, was an even larger vehicle, only needing 2 launches for an EOR mission, utilizing the S-IB-4 first stage, a taller S-IB-2 with 4 F-1 engines, the S-II-4 second stage, with 4 J-2 engines (Question: Wikipedia claims this stage was both identical in size to the S-II-C3 and larger, depending upon if you refer to the Saturn V or C-3/4 pages. Is there another, more consistent/reliable source I could use for this information?), and the S-IVB for a third stage. 

It was determined that a direct ascent was more feasible than EOR, so a larger vehicle would be needed, hence, the C-5.

Progressing from the Saturn IB, work began on the Saturn V, a much larger rocket which required a new first stage. As the third first stage of Saturn vehicles, it became known as the S-IC (based upon the S-IB-4?), and was powered by 5 new, much more powerful F-1 engines. The S-II is used in this vehicle unmodified; 5 J-2 engines power it. As previously stated, the S-IVB is used for the third stage. This vehicle, known originally as the C-5 but later as the Saturn V, was chosen as adequate for the Apollo missions, and was capable of sending the CSM+LM on a direct trajectory to the Moon with only one launch.

The Saturn V-B was a briefly studied concept which would have used the fourth first stage in the Saturn series, the S-ID. The S-ID was essentially an S-IC which could decouple its outer 4 F-1s in a "stage and a half" design. The vehicle never flew.

ETS introduces a new vehicle, the Saturn IC. It is a derivative of the Saturn IB, and utilizes the new S-IE first stage, which is powered by a single upgraded F-1A engine.

 

Remaining questions: How large is the S-IE, compared to the S-IB? Based on this image, it seems there's 2 versions of the 1C. Is the orange tank version using an S-IF first stage? Why the larger stage/orange tank? This image seems to refer to vehicles which use this stage as "Saturn Multibody," whereas the former one only refers to multi-core designs as Multibody. What's up with this? Also, what are the upper stages on these vehicles?

 

Thanks for all the clarifications. It does seem to be a pretty logical albeit convoluted naming scheme.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jodo42

[NecroBones]

57 minutes ago, NecroBones said:

 

OK cool, that makes sense. But yeah, it would only really make sense to put the foam on the LOX portion, and have just white paint on the intertank structure and RP-1/kerosene portion. Maybe for the model I'll treat it as a rescaled S-IC and try to get some orange on that upper half.

 

Not the best screenshot, but here's a test build:

 

[NecroBones]

22 minutes ago, Jodo42 said:

As someone new to ETS, could someone explain how the 1C varies from the S-IC? Is there a reason for the similarity of the names? From what I can see it has only 1 lower stage engine. Which engine? Why is there a version with a taller lower stage? It seems this version is used in a 3-core Saturn-derived heavy lifter.

 

I'm new to ETS too, but already familiar with the Saturn rocket family. Unfortunately the Saturns have a pretty confusing naming scheme. ETS just extends it, using the established pattern.

 

Basically the "S-IC" is the standard first stage of the Saturn V, with 5 of the F-1 engines at the bottom, and 10m in diameter.

 

The "S-IB" is the first stage of the Saturn IB. This first stage was cobbled together with tanks from multiple smaller rockets (8 Redstones clustered around a Jupiter). In ETS they proposed that the next design for the smaller Saturn would make a special-purpose (rather than cobbled together) first stage, and call it the "S-IE", and the rocket is called "Saturn IC" (coming after Saturn IB). They posited that an improved F-1 engine (The F-1A, which was actually worked on) would be the logical engine to use on this new stage, rather than the eight H-1 engines used in the Saturn IB.

 

Confusing, I know, but it's a very logical progression using the existing, confusing naming convention.

Edited March 3, 2016 by NecroBones

[NathanKell]

@Jodo42 The stages for the Saturn line of LVs are S and then a roman numeral, and sometimes a letter. The numeral is the stage number. So S-I is the first stage, S-II the second, S-IV the fourth stage, etc. The letter designated variations/upgrades. (There was originally going to be a third stage, S-III, before C-5* became Saturn V). The LVs had the name Saturn and a roman numeral or Arabic number, and sometimes a letter. The number corresponded to the original C-series designation of the LV (the LVs selected for production were C-1 and C-5).

So there were multiple versions of the Saturn C-1 derived LV: Saturn I, Uprated Saturn I/Saturn IB (The most-flown IB had further first stage changes). It was comprised of, in the first instance, the S-I and S-IV (would have been 4th stage on C-5) stages. In the later models, it had the S-IB first stage (uprated first stage) and S-IVB (redesigned stage using 1x J-2 not 6x RL10, and nearly double the propellant).

The Saturn C-5 was the 5x F-1 first stage plan, and in production was the Saturn V. It featured the S-IC first stage (third version of a Saturn first stage) with 5x F-1 engines, the S-II second stage with 5x J-2 engines, and the S-IVB third stage with 1x J-2.

 

In Eyes, there is a Saturn IC launch vehicle, and it uses the S-IE first stage (the S-ID was a proposed variant of the S-IC but was never produced).

Edit: @NecroBones I'm afraid that ninja is not quite correct. The S-IC only ever refers to the first stage of the flown Saturn V. S-ID was the drop-ring version (Atlas style) of the S-IC. S-IE is the new monobloc / F-1A stage for Saturn IC.

And further, S-I / S-IB wasn't made by lashing tanks together. Indeed, if you compare measurements, you'll find it's rather taller than either Jupiter or Redstone tankage. Instead, what matters is that the tanks are the same diameter as previously-manufactured tanks, and therefore the tooling can be reused and doesn't have to be created fresh (an expensive and time-consuming process). Further, those tanks are all single tanks: either all LOX or all Kero. Not like the actual Redstone's and Jupiter's tankage, where there are obviously multiple tanks.

Final edit: Only S-IE is new to Eyes. The rest of what I discuss (including the planned S-ID stage-and-a-half getup) is all real.

[NecroBones]

6 minutes ago, NathanKell said:

Edit: @NecroBones I'm afraid that ninja is not quite correct. The S-IC only ever refers to the first stage of the flown Saturn V. S-ID was the drop-ring version (Atlas style) of the S-IC. S-IE is the new monobloc / F-1A stage for Saturn IC.

And further, S-I / S-IB wasn't made by lashing tanks together. Indeed, if you compare measurements, you'll find it's rather taller than either Jupiter or Redstone tankage. Instead, what matters is that the tanks are the same diameter as previously-manufactured tanks, and therefore the tooling can be reused and doesn't have to be created fresh (an expensive and time-consuming process). Further, those tanks are all single tanks: either all LOX or all Kero. Not like the actual Redstone's and Jupiter's tankage, where there are obviously multiple tanks.

 

@NathanKellYes, I corrected the first part of that while you were posting. Ninja'd again! I meant to type "S-IE" and "S-IC" came out of my fingers.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the second part though.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by NecroBones

[NathanKell]

Ninja war! \o/

[NecroBones]

Just now, NathanKell said:

Ninja war! \o/

 

Seriously.  lol!

[NecroBones]

 

Going back to the orange foam for a moment--- I think it might also make sense for the S-IVC proposed upper stage to have orange foam as well? That's a fully cryogenic stage. I realize this is a bit of a departure from the original artwork, but I think it's more in keeping with the intent behind that artwork.

 

[NathanKell]

@Jodo42: there were three series of designs: the A-series, B-series, and C-series. We're going to skip the A and B series because they're not really germane, and were discarded fairly early on (although a lashup of 6 Jupiter stages, or use of an entire Titan I missile as upper stagey, are pretty fun).

In the sense that all design studies were made, to varying levels of detail, there were plans; but there certainly weren't, say, plans to build all five C-series versions. The A, B, and C-series design studies were just that: studies. Originally the production plan was to build C-1, C-3, and C-4. C-1 would perform Earth-orbital Apollo flights, C-3 would send an Apollo spacecraft on a circumlunar flight, and C-4 would launch the landing missions. Some time later, C-5 was picked over C-4 for reserve capacity (it proved needed) and C-3 was axed as not being really needed (C-1 and C-5 could do all the missions, and building C-3 and C-5 both would be more expensive than a few more C-5 vehicles).

Early proposals did feature Earth-Orbit-Rendezvous missions using multiple C-3 launches, but that was discarded fairly early on. There was a second go at this proposal later on, reusing the C-3 name for a 3x F-1 stage. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_C-3

Even with the C-4 and C-5, multiple launches would be needed for an EOR mission that did not involve LOR. Only with LOR could the C-4 and 5 manage single-launch missions (C-3 could manage two-launch LOR-LOR, or multilaunch EOR-LOR, or many-launch EOR, as you say).

Regarding A, I guess they thought of the original stage as the 'A' version of the stage, so any later version would be B and above.

The S-IB stage was just a tank stretch of the S-I stage. As I mentioned, changing width is very, very expensive. Stretches are cheap.

There originally were five Saturn stages: the S-I stage, the S-II stage (for C-3, C-4, and C-5, using multiple J-2 engines), the S-III stage (a rather smaller S-II), the S-IV stage (6x RL10), and the S-V stage (Centaur). Confusingly, the S-I differed from LV to LV (sometimes 8x H-1 with Jupiter and Redstone tooling, sometimes monobloc with F-1 engines), but the rest were fairly consistent (sometimes a bit smaller or larger, sometimes 4 vs 5 J-2s, etc). The C-4 and C-5 used all five stages; smaller LVs used only some of the stages.

Correct about the Saturn V-B. The S-ID was also used for various Saturn INT proposals.

On the remaining questions: The Saturn IC's S-IE stage would presumably be roughly equivalent in size to the S-IB stage. It is shown in the image showing all Eyes-based Saturn I variants; the two leftmost are Saturn ICs. The ones with the orange first stage (the S-IF stage) are Saturn Multibody, an upgrade to Saturn IC with strapon and common core booster options (and a 2x J-2 stretched upper for the Heavy variant).
You can read about that on the page linking the image, here: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/eyes_turned_skyward_spacecraft_and_launch_vehicle_technical_data
Or, even better, read the whole timeline. It's great.

@NecroBones: I would tend to agree there.

[NecroBones]

 

This thing is a pretty impressive size.

 

[CobaltWolf]

3 hours ago, NathanKell said:

*long snip*

My goal is to have all proposed Saturn variants be buildable by the time BDB's saturn updates finish, some time during this summer.

[MainSailor]

Whelp, there goes the need for this:

[NecroBones]

1 hour ago, MainSailor said:

Whelp, there goes the need for this:

LOL, sorry! Don't let me stop you though. Seriously. More part variation is never a bad thing.

[NecroBones]

---

 

Experimenting with normal-mapping to make the foam more lumpy. It's a good start, but I think I need to make it more subtle than this.