[ASC-III] Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill (BDArmory 4v4 AI Duels: WW1 Theme) - Now Concluded!

[NotAnAimbot]

All these suggestions are fine, but I think they will only make the challenge more complicated without bringing anything more to it. Plus, as an ex-FAR user, the ships will absolutely rip themselves apart if we use it without some reinforcement mod.

[inigma]

No restrictions gentlemen except what is in OP. Kerbals still required though to win.

Miniaturization comes at a cost.

[drtricky]

I'm also going to call for a max amount of laser turrets an offensively oriented aircraft can have. My current laser-armed aircraft, which is set to only target missiles due to an AI bug, would become absolutely, positively devastating if it could target both missiles and aircraft.

[g00bd0g]

14 minutes ago, drtricky said:

I'm also going to call for a max amount of laser turrets an offensively oriented aircraft can have. My current laser-armed aircraft, which is set to only target missiles due to an AI bug, would become absolutely, positively devastating if it could target both missiles and aircraft.

Yeah, energy weapons sort of eliminate any need/challenge for maneuvering. Unless lasers get heavily nerfed, I can't see how they could be allowed.

 

Totally OT, but did any of you play MindRover? Somewhat similar concept, had an awesome Object Oriented programming interface. Ladder style competition. Super fun. But alas, it did not catch on with the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=MindRover+The+Europa+Project+PC&nohtml5=False

Edited April 12, 2016 by g00bd0g

[inigma]

Remember, the aim of ASC is to test the limits of BDA OP. I don't think the Stealth Weasels represent a convergence yet. I think we're only seeing the beginning of this evolutionary tree, and I want to encourage more unconventional designs. My Phantom being one of them. This distinctively makes ASC Kerbalized.

For now ASC Series I will continue to run with the current rules in the OP, requiring manned Kerbals, and only 2v2.  Once 1.1 is released, and BDArmory updated, ASC will close out Series I and open Series II where KOTH may run 3v3 depending on well such can be handled, and may be opened to include non-Kerbaled vehicles, and duels over KSC Island as well as duels over KSC 2.

Concerning balance between turrets, lasers, and clipping, bear in mind that current AI places a lot of limitations on what may be future exploits. Also the KSC Island runway length places limits on airplane size (and as soon as I can figure out a lag-free method of running the opposition off of an aircraft carrier, even more so). Clipping places a lot of limitations on mount area for weapons, as well as buggyness during combat. Nothing more cool than to see a challenger's missile blow himself up because he clipped it too close in competition. Heh. Since these are AI only battles, this also places limits on what can be enabled or disabled during a competition round, with the only exception currently being the host manually enabling ECM pods, which is actually more considered a bug in BDA by ASC and not a missing feature in BDA.

When BDA rolls out a new AI that causes an overpowered King to take the throne (such as dual missiles/target capability, or major weapon buffs) we will consider a rules changes and thus a new Series. But the spirit of ASC is to push the limits of what is OP and see if the community can come up with an AI-flyable solution to take it down.

Edited April 12, 2016 by inigma

[NotAnAimbot]

47 minutes ago, inigma said:

an aircraft carrier

There's a mod for aircraft carriers I think, still in the works tho. It was called RealBoats iirc

[JollyGreenGI]

@drtricky Interesting you should mention this, in a recent test I had both of my fighters come within gun range of FAB-41 and open fire. Almost immediately, LY-41 comes bearing down and eviscerates RED and BLUE. I think there's something in the AI that makes nearby allies ignore their previous state to defend a distressed craft.

[drtricky]

3 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

@drtricky Interesting you should mention this, in a recent test I had both of my fighters come within gun range of FAB-41 and open fire. Almost immediately, LY-41 comes bearing down and eviscerates RED and BLUE. I think there's something in the AI that makes nearby allies ignore their previous state to defend a distressed craft.

I have also noticed in my own testing that on rare occasions, that flying deathstar of mine will actively target and fire upon other enemy aircraft. I have not been able to reproduce it, though. There really is something wrong with the AI in this version.

Edited April 12, 2016 by drtricky

[JollyGreenGI]

@drtricky I'm pretty sure it's an intended feature.

EDIT:

From the BDArmory changelog:

v0.10.4
= AI Improvements by ferram4 =
- AI will call for help from nearby friendlies when under fire using a new SetOverrideTarget system
- AI will try to maneuver in the vertical when turning on opponents, generally deciding whether to go up/down based on whether they are under possible threat from the current target
- AI will evade guns by trying to break in towards the threat and make themselves the most difficult target possible
- AI will try to extrapolate the motion of targets based on how long it will take them to turn around
- AI will extend somewhat further when they are set to extend, which makes it more effective in gunfights and generally results in a less steep climb when they do, so they're not as helpless.
- AI will switch to a target ahead while extending
- AI will check safety of team mates before firing
- AI more likely to take high-deflection shots
- Tweaks to g-limiting behavior

Edited April 12, 2016 by JollyGreenGI

[drtricky]

5 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

@drtricky I'm pretty sure it's an intended feature.

I run the deathstar in 1v1's, and it only shoots down missiles as intended. Then in random 2v2's, it ignores missiles and actively fires on enemies. That doesn't seem intentional to me considering how inconsistent it is.

Edited April 12, 2016 by drtricky

[JollyGreenGI]

From what I can tell, it only does this because its ally is under fire. Which is why it wouldn't arise in 1v1.

[drtricky]

7 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

- AI will call for help from nearby friendlies when under fire using a new SetOverrideTarget system

....hory shet, my planes just became the deadliest duo to fight. You engage the laser plane shooting down your missiles, you get risk getting blasted apart by Goalkeepers. You engage the plane shooting you with Goalkeepers, you get vaporized by lasers .

I personally wish the deathstar didn't do that and focused on destroying missiles. One test where that occurred caused it to nearly get hit by an AIM-120.

[Spearka]

3 hours ago, jrodriguez said:

In my opinion, this challenge is very cool however at some point we are going to see all people trying to use similar settings and the variability is going to get reduced, thus converging in pretty similar design..and that is sad  (e.g I really love the @Spearka Thassa design, but it will be very difficult for him to win Stealth Weasel)

Thanks for the compliment, I really wanted a different aesthetic to the other fighters.

That being said, I already tested it against the Stealth Weasel and 5 times out of 6 it loses. I attempted to bolster its agility by adding extra wings under existing ones and shifting the tail fins but it still loses regularly. I don't think the Stealth Weasel is ever going to be deposed and if so, it's going to be from another conventional design like that from Scriptkitt3h

SIDENOTE: I also saw that the Stealth Weasel only has its tanks half-filled. I'm actually quite annoyed by this as one can simply reduce the amount of fuel to increase performance with no significant downsides.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Spearka

[NotAnAimbot]

2 hours ago, inigma said:

an aircraft carrier

This is what actual fighters do. Most of them only have enough fuel to fly 10-20km to the AO, do some fighting and fly back to the airport. For example, a CF-188 like those we have in Canada takes about 15 minutes to empty its fuel tanks at full throttle, and 2 hours at minimum throttle. 

EDIT: Wrong quote, meant to quote @Spearka

Edited April 12, 2016 by NotAnAimbot

[ScriptKitt3h]

2 hours ago, drtricky said:

I'd personally outright ban part clipping, the kind where you put the same parts within each other. I'd allow minor amounts of clipping, but not clipping to that extent.

Nah, only because I'll admit that I (and a few others) partclip stuff like engines. Why? I personally do so since I like keeping my aesthetics in line with my performance goals for the craft- if two engines isn't going to get my plane to a decent speed, I up it to four and clip/offset them to look like two. The mass is still there, and I get a faster, somewhat more fuel-hungry plane that flies at speeds scaling to similar RL jets.

(Ex.: If a replica F-16 wasn't reaching speeds it should on a single Panther, clipping a second/third in would achieve the result aesthetically and practically.)

I can understand some see clipping as "cheaty", but it's not really- especially after Offset got put in the game.

19 minutes ago, Spearka said:

Thanks for the compliment, I really wanted a different aesthetic to the other fighters.

That being said, I already tested it against the Stealth Weasel and 5 times out of 6 it loses. I attempted to bolster its agility by adding extra wings under existing ones and shifting the tail fins but it still loses regularly. I don't think the Stealth Weasel is ever going to be deposed and if so, it's going to be from another conventional design like that from Scriptkitt3h

SIDENOTE: I also saw that the Stealth Weasel only has its tanks half-filled. I'm actually quite annoyed by this as one can simply reduce the amount of fuel to increase performance with no significant downsides.

Weasels are tough planes- my Geminis have a roughly 40/60 win/loss ratio in testing against them, mainly based on luck and getting long-range missile kills. The weasel's best attribute is its close-in gunfighting dominance. If your plane can't kill them with missiles, your chances of winning drop exponentially.

[Matuchkin]

6 minutes ago, NotAnAimbot said:

This is what actual fighters do. Most of them only have enough fuel to fly 10-20km to the AO, do some fighting and fly back to the airport. For example, a CF-188 like those we have in Canada takes about 15 minutes to empty its fuel tanks at full throttle, and 2 hours at minimum throttle. 

Even worse, the MiG-17 Fresco had mere minutes, meant for quick, take-off-and-fight flights over the strait of Taiwan and the hills of North Vietnam. However, this is one of my favourite jets of all time, due to its unusual manoeuvrability and ability to take down much faster (supersonic) but less manoeuvrable jets. Even worse in fuel capacity was the MiG-19 Farmer, though it was supersonic and able to compete with the McDonnel-Douglas F4 Phantom II, in dogfights.

And that is what wins in this challenge. Something I can't do. 

[boomchacle]

2 hours ago, inigma said:

Remember, the aim of ASC is to test the limits of BDA OP. I don't think the Stealth Weasels represent a convergence yet. I think we're only seeing the beginning of this evolutionary tree, and I want to encourage more unconventional designs. My Phantom being one of them. This distinctively makes ASC Kerbalized.

For now ASC Series I will continue to run with the current rules in the OP, requiring manned Kerbals, and only 2v2.  Once 1.1 is released, and BDArmory updated, ASC will close out Series I and open Series II where KOTH may run 3v3 depending on well such can be handled, and may be opened to include non-Kerbaled vehicles, and duels over KSC Island as well as duels over KSC 2.

Concerning balance between turrets, lasers, and clipping, bear in mind that current AI places a lot of limitations on what may be future exploits. Also the KSC Island runway length places limits on airplane size (and as soon as I can figure out a lag-free method of running the opposition off of an aircraft carrier, even more so). Clipping places a lot of limitations on mount area for weapons, as well as buggyness during combat. Nothing more cool than to see a challenger's missile blow himself up because he clipped it too close in competition. Heh. Since these are AI only battles, this also places limits on what can be enabled or disabled during a competition round, with the only exception currently being the host manually enabling ECM pods, which is actually more considered a bug in BDA by ASC and not a missing feature in BDA.

When BDA rolls out a new AI that causes an overpowered King to take the throne (such as dual missiles/target capability, or major weapon buffs) we will consider a rules changes and thus a new Series. But the spirit of ASC is to push the limits of what is OP and see if the community can come up with an AI-flyable solution to take it down.

Hey inigma, there is a mod called

which allows for you to turn a large craft into a craft with only a few parts

[drtricky]

5 minutes ago, boomchacle said:

...which allows for you to turn a large craft into a craft with only a few parts

As much as that'd benefit entrants with aircraft like mine, and all of our framerates, I wouldn't recommend it for this competition. It removes the challenge of keeping your aircraft together. 

I'd want it to make things like these in this video, however.

Edited April 12, 2016 by drtricky

[boomchacle]

Just now, drtricky said:

As much as that'd benefit people like me, I wouldn't recommend it for this competition. It removes the challenge of keeping your aircraft together. 

I'd want it to make things like these in this video, however.

I meant that to be a solution to inigma's problem with the aircraft carrier

 

[Spearka]

28 minutes ago, ScriptKitt3h said:

Weasels are tough planes- my Geminis have a roughly 40/60 win/loss ratio in testing against them, mainly based on luck and getting long-range missile kills. The weasel's best attribute is its close-in gunfighting dominance. If your plane can't kill them with missiles, your chances of winning drop exponentially.

As far as I know only the Zarek has a near-100% chance of killing a target with missiles since it goes so fast that when it fires its missiles the opposing jets countermeasures don't have time to take effect but I'm too reluctant to enter it as it's a hit-and-run aircraft and is poorly suited for dogfighting

[inigma]

49 minutes ago, Spearka said:

Thanks for the compliment, I really wanted a different aesthetic to the other fighters.

That being said, I already tested it against the Stealth Weasel and 5 times out of 6 it loses. I attempted to bolster its agility by adding extra wings under existing ones and shifting the tail fins but it still loses regularly. I don't think the Stealth Weasel is ever going to be deposed and if so, it's going to be from another conventional design like that from Scriptkitt3h

SIDENOTE: I also saw that the Stealth Weasel only has its tanks half-filled. I'm actually quite annoyed by this as one can simply reduce the amount of fuel to increase performance with no significant downsides.

In two rounds of testing the Stealth Weasel vs my Papa 1's, the remaining Weasel ran out of fuel for an easy kill.

[Jakerblam22]

I have a plane that I like, and feel is maneuverable enough, but I can't get it to hold enough missiles,because I am using the FAT-455 Aeroplane Tail Fin as a main wing. This doesn't support enough missiles for me (only holds maybe 6 missiles total), and my computer REALLY sucks so I am trying to keep part count as low as possible. Any suggestions?

[inigma]

10 minutes ago, boomchacle said:

Hey inigma, there is a mod called

which allows for you to turn a large craft into a craft with only a few parts

Im aware of it. Thanks. I was looking at a stock option. The GAP contract pack has an amazing stock carrier I've tested. I just need to figure out how to force BDA to recognize approaching vessels from 10km away for competition launch.

btw, no one's commented on the new logo. thoughts? courtesy of @YargJay9991

[drtricky]

58 minutes ago, Spearka said:

SIDENOTE: I also saw that the Stealth Weasel only has its tanks half-filled. I'm actually quite annoyed by this as one can simply reduce the amount of fuel to increase performance with no significant downsides.

...or it can limit fuel so much that the plane has a serious risk of losing due to fuel starvation. My laser-equipped LY-41 Taurus, set to only target missiles, actually managed to win a 1v1 against Stealth Weasel because of that .

@inigma Question: let's say that a fighter runs out of fuel, but in the process, manages to down the enemy. Does that count as a win, loss or draw?

Edited April 12, 2016 by drtricky

[Jakerblam22]

1 minute ago, inigma said:

Im aware of it. Thanks. I was looking at a stock option. The GAP contract pack has an amazing stock carrier I've tested. I just need to figure out how to force BDA to recognize approaching vessels from 10km away for competition launch.

btw, no one's commented on the new logo. thoughts? courtesy of @YargJay9991

I like the logo, think the "missile" shaped part is a nice idea. I think it could use more of a "royalty" thing to go with the King of the Hill idea, though.

You guys are going to ignore me because I haven't submitted anything, but I'm working on that.