Fussing about bugs...

[RocketBlam]

23 hours ago, ExtremeSquared said:

It was a "release" in name only. I feel bad for people who didn't realize that, but the timing of the "release" was regarded as sort of a joke in the community, and a little bit of searching would have revealed this to new potential purchasers. It's still a de facto Early access, and I trust them not to abandon it.

Sorry, I just can't agree to that. If you call something a "release", people expect that it is in a release state. They should not have to do research to figure out whether it's true or not. 

These terms are widely understood and accepted, and have been for decades. Don't blame the user because Squad called something a "release" which was not up to release standards.

Now, I personally think that 1.0 was up to release standards. 1.05 was also fine, it worked well. Everything was functional. However, here at 1.1, we're back in beta, for all intents and purposes, and if someone bought the game now and found it to be in beta condition (and the way landing gear and struts are, this is beta level functionality), they have every right to be mad about it.

Edited April 25, 2016 by RocketBlam

[Majorjim!]

14 hours ago, Corw said:

So they have been developing for quite few years now but they are not developers?

Correct. One game does not a developer make. 

 It's a fluke made by some very clever but amature programmers.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Majorjim

[tater]

On April 24, 2016 at 9:57 AM, sal_vager said:

It's also important to understand that not everything is a bug, for example heat shield ablator will be reduced if heat shields are exposed to heat, whether from a Moho orbit or being too close to ISRU components, and KSP relies on your CoM relative to the pivot of control surfaces to know which way they should move, that's how the game works.

Wow, they did that on purpose? So not a bug, but a poor design choice.

[NikkyD]

wait, i just spotted something

Quote

that's how the game works

So it's not about how (actual) physics work, it's about how the game works...oh kay

[Jarin]

On 4/24/2016 at 3:27 PM, Bloody_looser said:

P.S. I'm too busy playing the game to whine about bugs on the internets.

I would love to join you, but the game crashes every third launch or so. I'd rather have fun with a game that works.

[razark]

6 hours ago, RocketBlam said:

Now, I personally think that 1.0 was up to release standards.

A capsule with a heatshield and parachute couldn't reenter properly.  This is the simplest reentry, and most likely to be most new players first.

The fact that this problem made it into release makes me wonder (whether or not it deserves it) how the QA process works.

[Superfluous J]

9 minutes ago, razark said:

A capsule with a heatshield and parachute couldn't reenter properly.

Could you more precisely define "properly"? I've been playing early career (when the bugs let me. Stupid wheels and landing gear.) and had no trouble re-entering Kerbin's atmosphere with just such a pod. Sometimes 4 of them stacked with 2 parachutes.

Scratch that. You were talking about 1.0. Yeah that was an amusing bug. 1.0 wasn't up to release standards. 1.0.4 was, as was 1.0.5.

Edited April 26, 2016 by 5thHorseman

[bewing]

1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

1.0 wasn't up to release standards. 1.0.4 was, as was 1.0.5.

And after being refined with 4 more version updates, 1.1.4 will be also -- for almost everyone.

For me, 1.1 already works better than 1.0.5 did. 1.1 runs faster. Both versions have glitches. The ones in 1.0.5 were bigger for me -- I had to spend a lot of effort making sure kraken didn't eat my ships in 1.0.5, because I land in the water a lot, and I use klaws a lot. The airplane wheels work well enough for me -- I am mature enough to handle the fact that they aren't indestructable anymore.

I don't really use rovers, but the beta testers who do say the rover wheels work better than they did in 1.0.5. (I hated driving a rover on Mun in 1.0.5 -- couldn't climb the typical slopes; sliding sideways until I hit and obstruction and flipping. Yick!)

And I am perfectly content with not using landing legs at all until they work better.

I'm also using windoze, so I'm avoiding all the Linux and OSX-specific issues.

This whole discussion about "release quality" is nuts, I think. Try farmville -- they released that, and after all these years it still has all the original bugs in it. All programs have bugs. Get used to it.

[Corw]

10 hours ago, Majorjim said:

Correct. One game does not a developer make. 

 It's a fluke made by some very clever but amature programmers.

Those "amature" programmers have sold number of copies that is in millions. Pray tell, at which point do you turn "pro"? I'm guessing Minecraft is also made by non-developers? All other indie games? Maybe not just games. Linux is also not made by developers, cause it was just one "clever guy"? There are plenty of people that made several games which are all absolute excrements, but they made them in plural, so those are actually developers, unlike HarvesteR and his merry bunch?

 

HarvesteR may have started as one, really really clever guy, but his determination and practices were beyond what I've seen in most "proper" companies. So calling Squad "non-developers" and "amature" would be a pure insult from my point of view. They just made a huge effort (and a gamble) switching the core (Unity) that broke so many of their systems that were already working (something my company wouldn't do in million years) in a game that was working as is. All in an effort to make it even better and allow to improve even more in the future. That is a huge investment of real money (they are not working pro bono you know?) into a game that has probably past its peak sales, money that some other "developer" would channel into an new project and new potential profits.

 

So please, feel free to try to "defend" Squad (I think that is what you were trying), but do not insult them. They are not little league.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Corw

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Corw said:

Those "amature" programmers have sold number of copies that is in millions. Pray tell, at which point do you turn "pro"? I'm guessing Minecraft is also made by non-developers? All other indie games? Maybe not just games. Linux is also not made by developers, cause it was just one "clever guy"? There are plenty of people that made several games which are all absolute excrements, but they made them in plural, so those are actually developers, unlike HarvesteR and his merry bunch?

 

HarvesteR may have started as one, really really clever guy, but his determination and practices were beyond what I've seen in most "proper" companies. So calling Squad "non-developers" and "amature" would be a pure insult from my point of view. They just made a huge effort (and a gamble) switching the core (Unity) that broke so many of their systems that were already working (something my company wouldn't do in million years) in a game that was working as is. All in an effort to make it even better and allow to improve even more in the future. That is a huge investment of real money (they are not working pro bono you know?) into a game that has probably past its peak sales, money that some other "developer" would channel into an new project and new potential profits.

 

So please, feel free to try to "defend" Squad (I think that is what you were trying), but do not insult them. They are not little league.

You are free to disagree of course, as you have done, it was just my opinion. To glean insult from what I said is however, lunacy.

 

[RocketBlam]

It sounds like a question of semantics. I think they're a developer. They developed a game, that's good enough for me.

I like Squad, and I love KSP, don't think I don't. I just find it really aggravating that a bug (or bugs) this bad made it into a release at this stage, especially one that was widely known and discussed.

[lodger]

On 24.4.2016 at 7:32 PM, sal_vager said:

Not really as the developers are still working at fixing the pre-release tracker issues, that tracker is just closed to new issues as we're out of pre-release.

Um, why not iron out these findings first, then have a second testing run by selected gamers and then, if most of the obvious findings are fixed, release to the public? I really don't want to argue, sal_vager, KSP still is my #1 game and 1.1 promises a lot of cool new stuff. But I just don't understand why there are so many bugs/glitches/issues with each new release (remember 1.0, 1.0.2, 1.0.4, 1.0.5)? Understood: changing the Unity engine is a major impact that causes problems - we all knew this and so we are not that surprised. Yet, it seems that Squad is a little too eager to get a new release out the door instead of taking a little more time to fix the bugs that came in during QA / prerelease.

Edited April 26, 2016 by lodger

[Navy2k]

Why are you all already at 1.1? RSS/RO/RP0 aren't complete jet, so no need to update.

 

[klgraham1013]

On 4/24/2016 at 5:27 PM, Bloody_looser said:

P.S. I'm too busy playing the game to whine about bugs on the internets.

*sigh*

There's 24 hours in a day.  I'm sure, both you and the "whiners", can find time to post on a forum and play a video game.  People really need to stop saying this.

Edited April 26, 2016 by klgraham1013

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

I have moved passed it. 

I figure I'm just going to steer clear of the buggy parts until they're patched (my Mun bases fly up off the ground as soon as I load them -  so I won't be visiting them for a while.)

OTOH, the Dev's needed to hear from us about this. We're not beta testers anymore- were customers.

That build needed to stay in the oven for another month. 

[SelectHalfling0]

Is there anything we can do to upvote bugs we have that are already on the bug reporter? Virtually all of the ones I've encountered are on the first page of it.

[Perringo]

As I can’t properly play this wonderful game until the dust settles, I’d rather register in the forums and leave my opinion so at least I can practice my writing in English.

Needless to say, I have spent many (many) hours of fun and I have learned very (very) much playing KSP, which is the best non-multiplayer game I have ever played, so my gratitude and my love for Squad are eternal.

Said that, KSP is a product being sold and I believe the clients can complain and express their opinions as long as they are polite and educated. I see in this forum some situations that I wouldn’t understand in the real world… Let’s try a “restaurant analogy”:

You’ve got this little restaurant, nothing too fancy, wooden chairs etc, but you are an excellent cook and everybody loves it, money is coming in and you decide to expand the business.

So you rent a big local in Main Street and put a shining sign at the window saying “OPENING SOON: Moar dishes!, moar waiters!, moar sauce!, moar everything!!” People think “this is great! If the little restaurant was excellent, imagine how this is going to be!!”

A week passes, then a month, and another… People ask you “What about that new restaurant?” You answer: “We are having problems with the electricity; we can’t find a good carpenter…” “Ok, ok, I just came here to eat. But maybe you should have figured that out before putting the sign at the window”. (Another client who happens to hear the conversation intervenes: “Don’t complain! It will be done when it’s finished! You are being rude by asking!” …Awkward situation).

But, anyway, the opening day arrives and the new restaurant is filled with lots of old and new clients, and, as you have been talking about how great this opening is going to be for months, people expectations are very high. They want the most sophisticated meals, and the most delicious flavors.

“I want the Indian duck with chili and Norwegian salmon with a touch of vinegar aux fins herbes”. “I’m sorry sir but the salmon hasn’t arrived yet from Norway”. “Ummm, ok, then I will have the sirloin with strawberry sauce.” “Sorry sir, no sirloin”. “Really? Ok, then I will have the same burger I had in the little restaurant you had before!”

“Here you are, your burger sir.” “Wait a minute, waiter! This hamburger it’s not cooked, I can’t eat it!” “Sir, to be honest we have some problems with the kitchen. We have changed the equipment for a more advanced one and there is a bit of incompatibility…” “Let me interrupt you, I don’t need to know anything about your unity 5 kitchen, I came here after months of waiting to eat much better than I did in the old restaurant, but I find I can’t hardly eat at all!”

(Another client interrupts: “Don’t complain! I’m having this boiled potato and it tastes excellent! You should help the cook to adapt the dishes to the new equipment if you care so much!” “Well… my burger is… raw.” “That’s not helping at all!, you have to fill this form explaining exactly what’s the problem and what you have eaten in the last week so the cook can fix it!” “What?! Ok, here you are!” “Haw haw, you can’t just give it to the waiter, you have to send it by mail in this particular format or it won’t be studied.” “But, but, …the restaurant,   the burger…, the waiter… Buuaaaaa! I want my mommy!!” Another awkward moment.)

In the real world, I would leave the restaurant and never come back, no hard feelings just offer and demand laws. However, KSP it’s the only restaurant in town which serves the food I like, so I will eat my raw hamburger, smile to the waiter and the strange client suffering from Estocolmo syndrome, maybe stop going out for dinner for a while, and wait until the cooks get the recipe right. I won’t help them doing their job, I have a job of my own and they don’t help me!

Anyway, just wanted to make a little humoristic criticism. For me it’s just a game, it’s ok. The money I spent was very much recovered in fun playing 1.04 and 1.05. I’ll just make some other thing while everything gets fixed and I'm sure it wont be long (TM). But for Squad, it’s their job, and I think they should make a little self-criticism and learn from the many mistakes that IMHO have been made in this “pre-release/release” months.

[monstah]

54 minutes ago, Perringo said:

“Here you are, your burger sir.” “Wait a minute, waiter! This hamburger it’s not cooked, I can’t eat it!” “Sir, to be honest we have some problems with the kitchen. We have changed the equipment for a more advanced one and there is a bit of incompatibility…”

Heh, I had a chuckle at this part. And yea, I agree with your sentiment. I bought it as Early Access. I knew what I was getting into, and it was fine. I don't think it's fine that much anymore, and I can't even think what goes on the mind of someone who heard the hype and bought this the way it is now.

[adsii1970]

25 minutes ago, monstah said:

Heh, I had a chuckle at this part. And yea, I agree with your sentiment. I bought it as Early Access. I knew what I was getting into, and it was fine. I don't think it's fine that much anymore, and I can't even think what goes on the mind of someone who heard the hype and bought this the way it is now.

I'd like to add my thoughts on this as well. Although the burger analogy is funny, it is a little off. It would be more like going to Denny's and placing your order and getting the meal a little bit over time - Yeah, you may have ordered the Grand Slam platter, but you get the hash browns, first, then a bit later, the eggs, then the bacon, and then a pancake, followed by another pancake, and then finally, the last pancake and toast...

I knew this when I bought into the pre-release on STEAM. I paid under $10 U.S. for the game and in all actuality, I don't have a problem with the rollouts as they are. It appears that KSP will always be going under some sort of redo, updates, etc., and in a manner where we can still enjoy the game. Yeah, I make be disgruntled over the wheel issue, but I know that the team at Squad will have a fix for it. Yeah, I know that landing legs are messed up, but yeah, they'll fix that too. In the end, be patient, you'll get a good game, and we will still enjoy playing it for many years to come.

[Kiro]

Telling customers they have no right to complain is beyond ridiculous. Its one thing for a game to have some bugs, but its another when it crashes to desktop every time you try and build a craft. That's just an unplayable game. Was it community pressure that made them release 1.1 before it was ready? Perhaps, but it was not a good decision. One or two more weeks in the pre-release stage would have probably solved most of the major issues that are making the game unplayable for some. If you are able to play without any problems, then great, good for you! But please don't belittle the real issues that many other players are having. I had to finally give up last night after I had five crashes to the desktop from the VAB in less than an hour. I'm hoping that this week's announced 1.1.1 update solves many of the issue, but I've been fooled by Squad before

[Perringo]

30 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

be patient, you'll get a good game, and we will still enjoy playing it for many years to come.

Off course we will! And even if we didn't, at least for myself, I have have so much good time playing it that it's more than enough. The point i wanted to make with the restaurant anology it's that the community (as clients) is very kind and loyal to Squad, because we have have so good time with KSP and also because it's such an unique game that can't be sustituted. But all these "comming soon", "the update will change the game upside down", "the biggest update ever", "one week more", "another", "now the pre-release", "another week", ..., "It's out!!"... And then another week, and another, and wait for the patch...

Come on man! We are the best clients a company can have! People will keep waiting and playing this broken game, and submiting bug reports that won't get fixed in the next release. And, off course very soon (tm) when everything work as it should have in the beginning we will be even more thankful to Squad and hope they will make us "suffer" many more years with this wonderful game.

I only hope that the new customers of the restaurant (the ones who didn't new the old little one and want their indian duck with chili right away) are as patient as the veterans!

[pandaman]

I don't think the issue is whether or not anyone has the 'right' to complain.  Realistically we all do, if something is not right in our eyes then, with regard to KSP, pointing it out to Squad is not a bad thing.

 The problem is when the complainer comes across as aggressive, and or hostile whilst making no effort to actually explain, in any meaningful way, what their particular issue is.  Details as to what an issue is can help get it fixed, complaints that 'my rockets all crash now' don't help anyone.

Disappointment and frustration are perfectly understandable and natural reactions, and expressing them is in itself not a problem, but doing so in an unreasonable and unhelpful manner can be.

[troyfawkes]

I appreciate all the decisions Squad has made around releases. Would love to see a quick patch for wheels, but right now the only issues I have for them are that they fishtail a bit too much and you can't clip them at all without causing shenanigans.

You should have seen the amount of issues in the pre-release that they fixed.

And beyond ANY other improvement Squad has ever made, the performance boost blows everything out of the water.

Besides, I have to wait for mods to update and go through some bug-fixing before I really get into a campaign anyway

<3 Squad!

[tater]

I think it's absurd that there were high priority (or even critical) issues on the pre-release bug tracker that continued into the "release" version. Would be better as a general-pre-release (i.e.: for everyone including non-steam people).

[Kerbart]

Problems with wheels (and to a lesser extend, legs) have been menioned in the DevNotes ever since work on the Unity5 engine began. I don't think it's a problem that can be solved in a few weeks. Releasing now has the advantage that in a passionate community you will find a few individuals like @GoSlash27 who actually try to find a solution, and at the very least their input will help Squad in figuring out how to solve the problem.

Given the acidic environment around the Steam-only (for technical reasons) prerelease I'm sure Squad reasoned that “the community” would rather see a bugged release now than a fixed release three months from now. Ancient proverb says be careful what you wish for, you might get it.