1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

[LordFerret]

I just love this place. I just love the game too.

Quote

deleting part launchClamp1
 
(Filename: C:/buildslave/unity/build/artifacts/generated/common/runtime/UnityEngineDebugBindings.gen.cpp Line: 64)

Crash!!!

 

[KerbonautInTraining]

I never pick sides in stuff like this but if it were me, I'd have nuked this thread long ago. There's enough negativity going around the forums, last thing we need is to fuel the fire with information that may or may not be totally true. 

Also could somebody fix the title? It kinda hurts to look at.

Edited May 11, 2016 by KerbonautInTraining
Reworded

[mjl1966]

Oh, gee whiz, I don't know why I'm replying here - this belongs on a release of Threads Gone Wild.

It sounds like Squad is a training camp company.  I worked for such a company when I first started in I.T.  I ran all over the country implementing software, then became the head fred in supporting said software and eventually was involved with development of said software.  At first, I was way underpaid.  This was in the early 90's in the Silicon Valley and I had a wife and new baby to support.  We lived in a roach-infested one bedroom apartment for two years while I did technical support, field implementation and development for extremely low pay compared to what other software companies were paying.  I did one session in field that went for 36 hours straight.  I often worked well over 40 hours a week. 

It never really occurred to me to complain.  I was too busy getting a street PhD in software development, management and business.  As a direct result of that experience, I went on to live very comfortably as a self-employed consultant. 

This notion that people who work for training camp companies are somehow owed something beyond what they have agreed to accept is something I honestly don't understand.  If it's the best you can do at the time, that's reality. If you're worth more, then you should be able to find a job at a company that will pay you more.  It's really that simple.  If you can't qualify for a job that pays more, then being in a company that works your ass off for low pay leads to that magical thing called experience.  I am eternally grateful for having worked for such a company. 

I dunno, if it were me, I'd be inclined to tell prospective employers that I was a key contributor to the success of one of the most successful indie game dev/publishing companies in history and leave it at that.

If, on the other hand, you are seriously interested in changing how the industry treats its employees, then grab a copy of Unity, develop a game on your own and put it in early access on Steam.  That's exactly how KSP started.  Then, go ahead and hire people, treat them fairly, pay them well and invite every gaming pub in the world to write articles about your new and better game dev company.  Go ahead.  Nobody's stopping you.  But it's a touch more difficult than poodleing on reddit. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regex]

1 hour ago, KerbonautInTraining said:

I never pick sides in stuff like this but if it were me, I'd have nuked this thread long ago.

Nuking the thread doesn't really do anything good for Squad, better to let people run around in circles and keep it contained.

 

[Gojira1000]

Yep. Also there's a weird fascination in watching people making up their minds based on little or no information.

I should probably wean myself off the schadenfreude.

[DChurchill]

27 minutes ago, Gojira1000 said:

Yep. Also there's a weird fascination in watching people making up their minds based on little or no information.

Today, it's your turn to win +1 internets.

[Vanamonde]

Quote

... quite rightly, we're making a bit of noise about it... 

How is it quite right to take a side in a dispute after having only heard part of one side? 

Quote

What it is, is applying pressure around this issue and asking for the truth, reassurance, a message from Squad that addresses the issue and tells us either that it's all lies... 

How about we 'apply pressure' for a recitation of your company's HR policies, so that a bunch of strangers on a game forum can make rulings about its justness and legality? That sound fair? 

Quote

... what exactly is it you're trying to achieve?

I am trying to prevent uninformed people from running off half-cocked and damaging the reputation and business of a company which may not have done anything wrong in the first place. 

[DChurchill]

16 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

I am trying to prevent uninformed people from running off half-cocked and damaging the reputation and business of a company which may not have done anything wrong in the first place. 

On the internet?

Something about tilting at windmills comes to mind.

[waterlubber]

On 05/11/2016 at 9:52 PM, Fallarnon said:

That would basically qualify as an alternative form of compensation to which no cash value can be ascribed, and, still doesn't change my point. He still has the ability to attach that name to his resume/CV so that wasn't taken away. As I said, this is an obvious attempt to inspire clickbait articles about how Squad mistreated the guy when, again, he was clearly okay with that wage at the time.

Don't forget, sales outside of the KSP website are going to be subject to a 30% cut (industry average) going to the marketplace (Steam, Humble Store, GoG, etc.) and anything they took in on their website was hit for merchant processing fees. All of that before taxes and overhead like keeping the lights on, doors open, and employees paid.

Really? Would you care to share your intimate knowledge of game development and the challenges that Squad has faced with the rest of the class that allowed you to come to such a profound conclusion? I mean seriously, what a bunch of unsubstantiable... I can't even.

Game development is far from an exact science, it's really really really easy to sit around and armchair monday-morning quarterback, sitting here with the full benefit of hindsight and, unless I misjudge greatly, not a lick of industry experience to back it up and tell a developer what they should have done when deciding about X situation and wholly another thing to actually be there in the grind of things day to day making the hard decisions. 

We do?

Have you considered the fact that without those owners fronting the money that enabled those developers to do what they did none of it would be possible in the first place? I mean really, this idea that this stuff just happens and the financial burden assumed by the owners is negligible really bugs me. They mad a high risk investment in an idea and it paid off, why shouldn't they get to reap the rewards of this?

Can't you? What he said about brands like Nike and such, here's a novel idea, don't buy them. You don't need a cell phone, people got along just fine without them for centuries. There are plenty of responsibly sourced and produced products available on the market, sure they cost more but that's the price you pay for ensuring the person who made your shoes was paid a fair wage.

I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts the "American" developers you're referring to, being remote from the actual company, were hired on a contractor basis. If so, they again must have been happy enough with the wage and fringe benefits to put in these hours when it was demanded of them et alggug II

 

I see where you're coming from. I shouldn't try to impove anything in my life I don't like it, I should just ignore it. I don't need comfortable clothes, or convienience, or entertainment. If I don't like something, I should just stop using it all together Great idea!Time to throw out all my possesions and live a life of the Amish.I guess you better stop using the forums, then, since they probably were developed by someone who is underpaid. And your computer, too! Those silicon mines are pretty bar to work in.

My point is, the "don't use it" argument is stupid. I already bought the game.

Not to  mention how Felipe was going to develop it on his own anyway and Squad requested he stay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fallarnon]

39 minutes ago, waterlubber said:

 

I see where you're coming from. I shouldn't try to impove anything in my life I don't like it, I should just ignore it. I don't need comfortable clothes, or convienience, or entertainment. If I don't like something, I should just stop using it all together Great idea!Time to throw out all my possesions and live a life of the Amish.I guess you better stop using the forums, then, since they probably were developed by someone who is underpaid. And your computer, too! Those silicon mines are pretty bar to work in.

My point is, the "don't use it" argument is stupid. I already bought the game.

Not to  mention how Felipe was going to develop it on his own anyway and Squad requested he stay.

Actually you pretty well demonstrated you don't understand where we're coming from at all. The point is that if you're going to stand on principle about alleged offenses on a small scale by a small time developer you should stand on the same principle with regards to offenses by big companies that have been independently verified. Nike, for example, sells shoes for $140+/pair that they pay $2/week to a worker to make, a rate which isn't even a living wage in the areas they employ them in.

[Guest]

I just finished reading this entire thread, and all I can say is, it's a huge waste of time.

If some former employee was mistreated by the company, then let that person file litigation against the company, and seek compensation.

Everything else is just complaining for the sake of complaining.

[OddFunction]

2 hours ago, MailletC said:

I just finished reading this entire thread, and all I can say is, it's a huge waste of time.

If some former employee was mistreated by the company, then let that person file litigation against the company, and seek compensation.

Everything else is just complaining for the sake of complaining.

It's pretty fascinating to see peoples opinions on the matter though. Quite a lot of... confidence out there, it seems.

[The_Rocketeer]

16 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

How is it quite right to take a side in a dispute after having only heard part of one side? 

How about we 'apply pressure' for a recitation of your company's HR policies, so that a bunch of strangers on a game forum can make rulings about its justness and legality? That sound fair? 

I am trying to prevent uninformed people from running off half-cocked and damaging the reputation and business of a company which may not have done anything wrong in the first place. 

Sneaky @Vanamonde, quoting me without 'quoting' me eh?

I think a lot of people are being accused of taking sides when actually what they're saying is 'wrong is wrong'. That's not taking a side, that's agreeing that if this is true, then it's not ok.

I don't have a company, in fact I happen to be long-term unemployed. Since you're all strangers and have no power over me, I don't care what rulings you come to about that. Then again, my situation doesn't directly affect the opportunities and reputation of others, and even if it did none of you have contributed to my wealth and power by buying my products. (If there's a lot of interest in doing so, I could start an etsy store or something...)

I think it's worth realising that Squad's reputation isn't damaged by people saying 'naughty is naughty', it's damaged by Squad being naughty and people noticing. If Squad haven't been naughty, all they need to do is go on being nice and no damage done. I mean, on the one hand we've got @regex pointing out how powerless these so-called plaintiffs members of the community are, and on the other we've got you saying how damaging they could be to Squad - you can't have it both ways.

As a moderator of this community, I would seriously have expected you to take a slightly less divisive and offensive attitude to these things.

Edited May 12, 2016 by The_Rocketeer
Equivocal/inappropriate term replaced

[SOTMead]

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Wallygator said:

This entire thread could be retitled "The first great forum logical fallacy war". 

I lost it when someone compared Squad to murderers. 

 

Thread delivers!

[The_Rocketeer]

Just now, SOTMead said:

I lost it when someone compared Squad to murderers. 

If you're refering to my comment, I wasn't comparing Squad to murderers, I was making a rhetorical point about the ethics of trust and forgiveness.

[regex]

44 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

on the one hand we've got @regex pointing out how powerless these so-called plaintiffs are

No ...  If the "plaintiffs" had a legal leg to stand on they should have made a claim in a court of law.

My point is that it's actually a very complicated situation that could affect current employees negatively (many of whom I have a lot of respect for).  It's one thing to pressure Squad to do better, it's another to hold a vindictive, three-year-old grudge with the stated aim of "damaging Squad".

[razark]

1 minute ago, regex said:

it's another to hold a vindictive, three-year-old grudge with the stated aim of "damaging Squad".

Would you feel any differently about the claim/situation if it lacked that statement?

[regex]

5 minutes ago, razark said:

Would you feel any differently about the claim/situation if it lacked that statement?

No, because I already believe the claim has some substance to it.

[DChurchill]

39 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

If you're refering to my comment, I wasn't comparing Squad to murderers, I was making a rhetorical point about the ethics of trust and forgiveness.

To be fair, using murder to make your point is a shade hyperbolic.

[The_Rocketeer]

 

27 minutes ago, regex said:

No ...  If the "plaintiffs" had a legal leg to stand on they should have made a claim in a court of law.

My point is that it's actually a very complicated situation that could affect current employees negatively (many of whom I have a lot of respect for).  It's one thing to pressure Squad to do better, it's another to hold a vindictive, three-year-old grudge with the stated aim of "damaging Squad".

17 minutes ago, DChurchill said:

To be fair, using murder to make your point is a shade hyperbolic.

@regex I think we might be talking at cross-purposes here. On the one hand we have the original claims, and on the other the comments of those on this forum. I have generally tried only to comment on the community and encouraged people to allow one another the space to form their own views or express their own feelings without being criticised for the way they do that. I used 'plaintiffs' in the sense of 'ones with complaint', rather than the legal sense of those bringing a claim before a court of law.

Edit: have amended earlier post, since with hindsight it was perhaps an unfortunate expression.

@DChurchill perhaps you're right, but to restate the point (which I think is as true here as it is of murder): it isn't justice to let people off the hook for the wrongs they did in the past just because it was a long time ago and they promise not to do it again.

Edited May 12, 2016 by The_Rocketeer

[Basto]

21 hours ago, mjl1966 said:

This notion that people who work for training camp companies are somehow owed something beyond what they have agreed to accept is something I honestly don't understand.  If it's the best you can do at the time, that's reality. If you're worth more, then you should be able to find a job at a company that will pay you more.  It's really that simple.  If you can't qualify for a job that pays more, then being in a company that works your ass off for low pay leads to that magical thing called experience.  I am eternally grateful for having worked for such a company. 

I dunno, if it were me, I'd be inclined to tell prospective employers that I was a key contributor to the success of one of the most successful indie game dev/publishing companies in history and leave it at that.

If, on the other hand, you are seriously interested in changing how the industry treats its employees, then grab a copy of Unity, develop a game on your own and put it in early access on Steam.  That's exactly how KSP started.  Then, go ahead and hire people, treat them fairly, pay them well and invite every gaming pub in the world to write articles about your new and better game dev company.  Go ahead.  Nobody's stopping you.  But it's a touch more difficult than poodleing on reddit. 

I have been following this thread and haven't really been able to put my thoughts into words and haven't posted but this basically sums it up. 

Thank you sir. 

[KasperVld]

1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said:

As a moderator of this community, I would seriously have expected you to take a slightly less divisive and offensive attitude to these things.

I wanted to leave a comment regarding this. Moderators are community members like the rest of you. They're allowed to share their opinions like anyone else here is. Their role is only to step in when people violate our community rules, which does not have anything to do with what they believe in.

[The_Rocketeer]

4 minutes ago, KasperVld said:

I wanted to leave a comment regarding this. Moderators are community members like the rest of you. They're allowed to share their opinions like anyone else here is. Their role is only to step in when people violate our community rules, which does not have anything to do with what they believe in.

@KasperVld I stand corrected, comment retracted.

[DChurchill]

39 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

@DChurchill perhaps you're right, but to restate the point (which I think is as true here as it is of murder): it isn't justice to let people off the hook for the wrongs they did in the past just because it was a long time ago and they promise not to do it again.

No, I get your point, which is why I didn't bring up the murder thing until someone else did. No big deal. But here's what I really wanted to add back then and let it slide: We're not talking about murder. We're talking about ALLEGED bad management. You CAN'T continue demonize Squad over past practice when evidence shows that they got better. Again, it's not murder. It's not even criminal. It's bad management. And alleged bad management at that.

My whole deal with this is that people are making a whole lot of inferences and suppositions based on sketchy data. No one here has enough information to make some of the claims I've seen in this thread.

"It seems that Squad like so many other companies out there has got a sniff of profits and is now involved in massive tax evasion, employment law abuses and unethical behaviour. Not cool, not cool at all. "

Really? They got that from a four part 4Chan post and a post by Nova Silisko saying "yeah I can see that" gets someone to fraud? Really? The sound you hear now is me rolling my eyes at the above statement. (It's not your statement, I know. I think it's a quote of a Reddit post. Just supplying it for reference.)

People need to stop indicting Squad for all the supposed "evils of captalism". I see people get all bent over the $2,400 per year thing. Bnd then someone posts how it's the equivalent of $42K in Mexico, which then gets promptly ignored by 50% of the rest of the thread. Is $42K great? Not really, but I don't have a list of the guy's duties, not to mention the fact that he signed the contract.

I've seen facebook comments about my own company over things in the news from people who had no idea whatsoever as to what they were talking about. It happens constantly. Which is why I personally am taking this all with a very large grain of salt.

Edited May 12, 2016 by DChurchill

[FullMetalMachinist]

2 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

I think it's worth realising that Squad's reputation isn't damaged by people saying 'naughty is naughty', it's damaged by Squad being naughty and people noticing.

The problem is that reddit and this thread are both full of people saying "Squad was naughty, they should be punished" when there is no proof to that. All we have is one former employee's angry rant, and some vague affirmations by unnamed current employees saying that things are better. 

2 hours ago, The_Rocketeer said:

If Squad haven't been naughty, all they need to do is go on being nice and no damage done.

Except that there has already been some articles published on gaming websites talking about this whole thing. So whether Squad actually did anything bad or not, they have already had their reputation damaged. That's about the same as enacting the punishment before having a "guilty" verdict, which is not ok.