1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

[Sirad]

The question is: Why in anyones Name, shall squad take a small amount of the $Millions shoveled already aside and locked for other things, to finish this product ?

Oh People be serious....

We'll may get something, maybe someday, but never that what we have paid for.
if we paid 30$ per game as community we barely may get 3$ worth a game for it we count the numbers of sales alltogether and divide through effort.

thats Business folks. Squad decides what way they spent their money for and all of you for sure carefully read your license agreement....

[Vanamonde]

Stargate525, you left out what I was replying to. Note the emphasis. 

Quote

If a major developer decided to make a game similar to KSP, it would be done in 2 years and released without major bugs. 

As for your points, though, Skyrim is largely based on Morrowind/Oblivion, so you'd have to include part of their development in Skyrim's completion time, and Bethesda is notorious for releasing buggy games anyway. They also have 75 employees with which to complete their games faster. 

Minecraft's physics are an order of magnitude simpler than KSP's, so I'm not sure that's even comparable. And it has bugs. 

Not sure why you're bringing Spore up since it's widely considered one of the worst failures to deliver on promise in the history of gaming. And it had bugs. 

Universe Sandbox has almost zero graphics, so again, isn't comparable. And it has a couple of bugs. (And an abysmal interface.) 

Haven't played the others you mention. 

Still has nothing to do with whether or not Squad is nice to its employees, though. 

[kmMango]

1 hour ago, Sirad said:

The question is: Why in anyones Name, shall squad take a small amount of the $Millions shoveled already aside and locked for other things, to finish this product ?

Oh People be serious....

We'll may get something, maybe someday, but never that what we have paid for.
if we paid 30$ per game as community we barely may get 3$ worth a game for it we count the numbers of sales alltogether and divide through effort.

thats Business folks. Squad decides what way they spent their money for and all of you for sure carefully read your license agreement....

I don't much like your attitude.

Is KSP truly a finished product?

God no!

Is it still a game unlike anything else available in terms of its scale and potential?

YES.

Maybe Squad isn't the developer we need, but they're the one we have. Read up on some of the bugs that had to be swatted back in alpha. Even if Squad's management is questionable in their integrity, the devs have worked miracles on this game. Back in my day, we didn't even have any of this newfangled "Science!" 

Also, if you're going to complain about the game not being finished, then tell me: what would you consider "finished?"

I guess the devs really are like Kerbals: they often have no idea what they're doing, but through trial and error, guesswork, and dedication, they have made something beautiful--even if it does blow up occasionally.

I consider KSP the best $20 I've ever spent.

Edited May 6, 2016 by kmMango

[Sirad]

35 minutes ago, kmMango said:

I don't much like your attitude.

Is KSP truly a finished product?

 

Since we are not on facebook here, its no like contest here.

I Do not care in what state that game is when squad drops the support or stops further work. The more we rise uproar with pitchforks and torches the more likely quad takes the money and runs

(or the law fitting equivalent of it)

Ksp is no finished product, it is in my terms not even a quarter finished product at all. there are quite a lot of Bugs that are still presend and were noticed and told to squad a long long time ago.

It really really smells like a big SCAM that they are trying to tell us that this is all they can do is to tell us 'we are working hard on it' while those who are working hard are just a quite few underpaid and maybe chained to their desktops coders while the millions of dollars are ? heh ? for what ? spent for ?

For each of us who paid the game 20 or 30 or 40 Dollars euros or whatever currency is not much. but in sum we spent millions for the Game and thats all ?

'we're working hard on it'

In example: Recently i bought 'GTA5' and paid 60 Bucks for it. This Game is worth that 60 Bucks just for simply driving from one end to the other. Just for that alone. Its still buggy but you get something for your 60 Bucks.

KSP is really simple when you set up the Formula stuff around. Its no Possible to get a bug free version vor estimated 20 Million US$ (more likely 40 Millions?)? How Many Copies were sold ?

The Company i work in Germany runs on 5 Millions/Year 50 People + 30 'rented workers' so we could run on 20 Millions for 4 Years with 80 Peoples fulltime. all-the-year-round.

as i guess our salarys in germany are at least 10(maybe 20) times higher. so in Mexico maybe could run a 80 People company for 40 Years on 20 Millions$.

Hire and Fire because for saving a yearly salary of 2.400US$ smells SCAMMY

Edited May 6, 2016 by Sirad
angry

[kmMango]

I am sorry that I came off so antagonistic. I'm just sick of all the doom and gloom on this forum. Apologies.

I have a bit more faith in Squad than you. I can see why you have your opinion, and I agree with parts of it. I just thought you were knocking the game a bit too hard.

KSP has problems, yes. However, name one other game like it. One with (mostly) accurate orbital dynamics, aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, and thermodynamics. One where you can build a spacecraft, fly it, crash it, land it on another planet, etc. There are games that do some of these things, but KSP is the only one I know of with all of them integrated.

Sure, the management may be questionable, but their product is amazing, even with the bugs.

And yes, if Squad takes the money and runs, I will be right there alongside you with a pitchfork.

Edited May 6, 2016 by kmMango

[TheCardinal]

Even though i firmly believe that everybody is entitled to his or hers opinion, i dislike to see mostly negative views here in the forum.

Yes, 1.1.x isn't working as flawless as hoped. A.f.a.i.k. it hasn't been different ever since 0.13. A version is released, bugs are discovered, the users vent a lot of criticism, one or more patches are created solving some problems until a somewhat stable version is achieved. The user criticism dies down until the next version is released.

Version 1.1 created a lot of anticipation and excitement before it's release, which (in this specific thread) has turned into a ridiculous mud slinging contest towards Squad. @KasperVld - Please close this thread.

Edited May 6, 2016 by TheCardinal
typo

[Sirad]

54 minutes ago, kmMango said:

I am sorry that I came off so antagonistic. I'm just sick of all the doom and gloom on this forum. Apologies.

And yes, if Squad takes the money and runs, I will be right there alongside you with a pitchfork.

Well i have to Apologize too for using not so smart words to express my opinion. Anyway.  In case we'll shall gather up and order the Pitchforks&Torches in dozens for expected savings.

[r4pt0r]

I've always thought something was up behind the scenes. Don't really care so long as they keep pushing out good updates. I've had awful jobs before, they drove me to find better employment and when I did I quit the awful job. Go where you are happy, life is too short.

 

Also venting long after the fact seems rather lame, but I enjoy reading about the drama so thanks.

[Green Baron]

 

Well, by now we all realized that 1.1(.x) was rushed out too fast, has unexpected bugs and crashes from time to time, but no complaining will change this. We can only wait or move on.

btw.: i find it not helpfull to discuss internet-rumors about a company (that salary thing). I don't think anyone of us can verify whether these things are true, but anyone can spread almost any accusation and the accused has little chance to "defend" himself. I'd just ignore these things.

@Sirad: If you haven't already, try orbiter until ksp 1.1.5 is out and stable ;-)

Hail the probe

 

[Signo]

From my interested customer point of view I hope Squad can get a huge profit that will lead to a wonderful KSP 2.

(Does a bee care about flowers?)

 

[Ringkeeper]

14 hours ago, kaesden said:

The guy is claiming they paid him $2400 annual salary. Who in their right mind would accept a full time job that pays $200 a month?? I'm calling BS, I know the video game industry has issues, but no one in their right mind would accept a job working 40 hours a week for ten bucks a day. Literally any other job would pay better.

Well, 200$ in Mexico is double the minimum wage.

Yes, there are better paid jobs in the US/EU , but first you need to get them. If you are "fresh" and "unexperienced" or didn't had many jobs to show off yet, you take what you get. And even if the work conditions are as bad as described, the name on your CV will help alot. You stick through this 1-2 years and then move on to a nice paid job.

[Red Iron Crown]

13 hours ago, Laythe Dweller said:

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

Not speaking as a moderator or in any official capacity:

It's not suspicious to me at all. It's no win to get into a mudslinging fight with a former employee. If you say anything negative about the employee that gets spun as lying for damage control (or at the very least, breaching privacy by speaking about the employee's performance). If you don't say anything negative about the employee, that's seen as an endorsement of them ("Look, they don't even criticize him, he must be telling the truth!"). It's a game of he said/she said where one party is never believed because they're a company instead of a person.

The only sensible move is to not say anything at all. As an added bonus, it's also the most ethical move because a company shouldn't discuss employee relations publicly.

[rkman]

5 hours ago, TheCardinal said:

Yes, 1.1.x isn't working as flawless as hoped. A.f.a.i.k. it hasn't been different ever since 0.13.

Version 1.1 created a lot of anticipation and excitement before it's release, which (in this specific thread) has turned into a ridiculous mud slinging contest towards Squad.

I think it is fair criticism if there is no difference in quality between alpha, beta and release.

Edited May 6, 2016 by rkman

[Perringo]

I have been working in Mexico for a construction company and the lowest category worker (I don't know the word in English, just hard working men with no qualifications carrying stuff and such things) got around 1100 pesos a week, 62 dolars, that would make around 3200 USD a year, and believe me, even in Mexico that is very, very little, enough for only the most basic things. I find dificult to believe someone would get paid that little for an engineering full time work, and even more dificult someone would accept that salary!

Anyway, I don't have an opinion about working conditions at Squad, as only the people working there know how they are. Squad is very free to pay their employees what they think as employees can leave the job whenever they want to. However I do have an opinion as a client and I find all these past months of Hype / pre-release / release / patch / patch... and continuing, unacceptable. I am no computer expert but I have played many games and used many programs, and they could be more or less enjoyable or useful, but they all worked. A program can crash under very special circumstances once in a month or so. A program can't have bugs, they must be solved before it gets to the client, and if a bug comes out it must be fixed right away even with an apologie to the client. I find these things to be basic proffesionalism. I can't imagine what would happen if I did my job as civil engineer Squad's way (well, actually I can imagine, I would be in jail!).

I don't know the reasons of Squads behavour but it wouldn't surprise me hard working conditions and low wages are factors involved, specially in engineering jobs where peoples implication and compromise is vital. "If I find a bug in the game... why am I going to tell about it? Then I will have to stay all night fixing it and I have this tiny salary, and no extra-hours... I better leave it and let other find it, or when the release is out hopefuly I will have found another job." This is a very reasonable temptation. I'm not saying this is the case, but I believe it is consistant with the actual state of the game.

[Carraux]

My usual KSP session last for about 2-4 hours. KSP crashes at least once in a session.

[Carraux]

4 hours ago, Signo said:

From my interested customer point of view I hope Squad can get a huge profit that will lead to a wonderful KSP 2.

(Does a bee care about flowers?)

 

Up to mid 2015, Squad had sold over one million copies of KSP over Steam alone. Considering, that we have 2016 now and that they sell the game over their website too, I think it is fair to estimate the total number of sold copies up to 2 million (possibly more). Game costs now 40 bucks (I bought it for 20), so the total revenue should be around... ...more than 50 million US dollars.

[metalmouth7]

13 minutes ago, Carraux said:

I think it is fair to estimate the total number of sold copies up to 2 million (possibly more).

While they've remained pretty tight-lipped, they (seemingly accidentally, if their rush to have the information taken down is any indication,) revealed that they had sold over 4 million copies earlier this year. Their gross profits are well over $40 million dollars U.S.

[Tourist]

1 hour ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Not speaking as a moderator or in any official capacity:

It's not suspicious to me at all. It's no win to get into a mudslinging fight with a former employee. If you say anything negative about the employee that gets spun as lying for damage control (or at the very least, breaching privacy by speaking about the employee's performance). If you don't say anything negative about the employee, that's seen as an endorsement of them ("Look, they don't even criticize him, he must be telling the truth!"). It's a game of he said/she said where one party is never believed because they're a company instead of a person.

The only sensible move is to not say anything at all. As an added bonus, it's also the most ethical move because a company shouldn't discuss employee relations publicly.

Well said, and an unusual dose of common sense.

Of course Squad is not going to come here and defending themselves against a disgruntled former employee or, or "explaining" themselves to disgruntled forum users... why on earth would they? What possible corporate benefit does it gain them, while on the other hand exposing them to completely avoidable PR or even legal risk.

I know its natural to, when confronted with silence to try to fill in the blanks or assume the blanks mean something, but when we do so our assumptions are usually incorrect.

Are Squad likely to be Employer of the Year? I doubt it.

Are they literally the worst employer of the year? of course not, they are not Konami.

Are their likely to be some employees and ex employees who are not happy? Almost certainly.

Do I care? Not if the game is fun.

 

 

[Sirad]

36 minutes ago, metalmouth7 said:

While they've remained pretty tight-lipped, they (seemingly accidentally, if their rush to have the information taken down is any indication,) revealed that they had sold over 4 million copies earlier this year. Their gross profits are well over $40 million dollars U.S.

Does the Term 'gross Profite' means 'after tax' ?

 

[smjjames]

8 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

Not sure why you're bringing Spore up since it's widely considered one of the worst failures to deliver on promise in the history of gaming. And it had bugs.

Yeah, I blame EA on that one. Before EA got it's claws on Maxis, things were looking SO DAMN GREAT! >:(

/endmicrorant

[metalmouth7]

31 minutes ago, Sirad said:

Does the Term 'gross Profite' means 'after tax' ?

 

No. They probably paid around 30% of what they earned on Steam as fees. Taxes are a little trickier. Since KSP isn't actually owned by Squad, but by Deported B.V., a Dutch Company, it's unclear if they actually pay in *any* taxes on their earnings, thanks to the tax shelter laws in the Netherlands.

[herbal space program]

2 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Not speaking as a moderator or in any official capacity:

It's not suspicious to me at all. It's no win to get into a mudslinging fight with a former employee....The only sensible move is to not say anything at all. As an added bonus, it's also the most ethical move because a company shouldn't discuss employee relations publicly.

I agree that demanding for Squad to answer to these accusations publicly is unrealistic and pointlessly antagonistic. But it does seem pretty clear at this point that they are still using a garage band development model even after their game has hit the big time. The devoted fans are screaming for more, and it is really very slow in coming. Modders are cranking out content way faster than the core development team is. I understand that there was a physics port and that's a whole lot of work for no content advantage, but still it is not unreasonable to expect them to have taken this ball and run further with it by now.  If that's because they have in fact taken the bulk of the revenue from KSP and put it towards other ventures, leaving us out in the cold, then I do think it is pitchforks-and-torches time. Mind you, I could never begin to begrudge them the $20 that my early access purchase cost for the 1500+ hours of play that I've (mostly) enjoyed, but I want so much more, and I'm willing to pay what a big league game would cost right now just for a promise I can believe that a lot more is forthcoming in the next year or two. But if Squad is going to take that money and not deliver, then I'd rather see somebody with a real commitment to game development buy them out and finish the job properly.

Edited May 6, 2016 by herbal space program

[Sirad]

7 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

If that's because they have in fact taken the bulk of the revenue from KSP and put it towards other ventures, while leaving us out in the cold, then I do think it is pitchforks-and-torches time.

To look at it a more funny way:

(this is a sarcatic post...)

come aside. we are already enough People. if we get 2 millions customers together i can offer a good Price for a 'Users License to a Pitchfork.' Dont really expect a Pitchfork, The User License excludes anything, and indeed (that is the most important part of the 'early acess' Business) your Right to really ever get a proper Pitchfork. Maybe, someday im willing to send you something barely looking like a Pitchfork (you never own it you are only allowed to look at it at your own risk) maybe, maybe after i sold 10 Million virtual Pitchforks i start thinking about telling my Blacksmith to add the Spikes at the right end and not facing inwards to the handle. Ill show you quite good looking Pictures of Various Pitchforks, produce quite good looking Videos of 'how good a Proper Pitchfork could look alike' but not to deliver the Pitchfork at all, im just telling you every week how hard i work to come to a working solution for a proper Pitchfork with Spikes facing outwards to the right direction, just to sell this Promise to new customers.

(while my blacksmith since Years still cast em with the spikes facing inward)

But first at all i have to count my Money...... maybe later on we come to the complicated term how a proper Pitchfork has to look like. soon(tm)

sorry couldnt resist....

[GluttonyReaper]

I think I'm starting to see why people thought Communism was a good idea.

[Carraux]

1 hour ago, herbal space program said:

I agree that demanding for Squad to answer to these accusations publicly is unrealistic and pointlessly antagonistic. But it does seem pretty clear at this point that they are still using a garage band development model even after their game has hit the big time. The devoted fans are screaming for more, and it is really very slow in coming. Modders are cranking out content way faster than the core development team is. I understand that there was a physics port and that's a whole lot of work for no content advantage, but still it is not unreasonable to expect them to have taken this ball and run further with it by now.  If that's because they have in fact taken the bulk of the revenue from KSP and put it towards other ventures, leaving us out in the cold, then I do think it is pitchforks-and-torches time. Mind you, I could never begin to begrudge them the $20 that my early access purchase cost for the 1500+ hours of play that I've (mostly) enjoyed, but I want so much more, and I'm willing to pay what a big league game would cost right now just for a promise I can believe that a lot more is forthcoming in the next year or two. But if Squad is going to take that money and not deliver, then I'd rather see somebody with a real commitment to game development buy them out and finish the job properly.

I understand that Early Access was neccessary to get the funding done. The team was small (and absolutely inexperienced in software developmant and game design) but passionate. If Early Access pours in the money (and it did), Squad was able to surve the time of development and it would have gave them the opportunity to hire additional professionals to get the job done. Professionals like design and render artists, sound artists and & engineers, experienced developers and - for me one keypoint - game designers.

But they didn't...

Never.

And that saddens me. The game showed really high potential. But they were never able to make this dream come true. It's still half finished beginner's work. I wish, I could see a KSP version made by a professional team.