[1.4][1.7.7] GravityTurn continued - Automated Efficient Launches

[damerell]

12 hours ago, razark said:

I carry a pocket knife.  I have a multitool that I could carry instead.  It even has a better blade than my knife.

But I prefer to carry the knife because I don't need all the other tools 99% of the time.  Carrying around a bunch of stuff I have no need of is pointless at best, and an annoyance most of the time.

That's certainly something that is true of physical objects in a way that it isn't true of KSP mods, something I tried to explain above. In the hypothetical case here, the multitool doesn't weigh any more or take up any more space [1] - so then why not carry it?

[1] The load time from non-part mods that don't do heavy computation at load time is effectively zero.

[Superfluous J]

2 minutes ago, damerell said:

That's certainly something that is true of physical objects in a way that it isn't true of KSP mods, something I tried to explain above. In the hypothetical case here, the multitool doesn't weigh any more or take up any more space [1] - so then why not carry it?

Yeah. Super lightweight.

 

[damerell]

11 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Yeah. Super lightweight.

Yes, super lightweight. If you have no use for those windows you need never see them. You can put one button on the Blizzy toolbar for MechJeb Ascent Guidance and have done with it.

The analogy to a physical tool simply isn't valid.

[Superfluous J]

We're not going to convince you and you're not going to convince us. This argument isn't even new or restricted to Mechjeb. It's a question of, do you want one tool that does everything, or do you want many tools that each do one thing. Some prefer the all-in-one solution, others prefer the many-specialized-tools solution.

[fourfa]

17 hours ago, damerell said:

Gravity Turn does this one thing better.

A lot better, honestly.

[damerell]

2 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

We're not going to convince you and you're not going to convince us. This argument isn't even new or restricted to Mechjeb. It's a question of, do you want one tool that does everything, or do you want many tools that each do one thing. Some prefer the all-in-one solution, others prefer the many-specialized-tools solution.

You certainly aren't going to convince me when your argument makes no sense whatsoever, which it doesn't. You draw these silly analogies to physical tools - analogies which aren't valid because in the case of the physical tool the all-in-one tool is heavier or more awkward. I point out facts: you can use MechJeb's Ascent Guidance exactly like Gravity Turn - one button, one window, one piece of functionality.

Edited September 24, 2016 by damerell

[JAFO]

@AndyMt Many thanks for reviving Gravity Turn!

Edited September 24, 2016 by JAFO

[Rocket Surgeon]

Would it be a good idea to have it save some custom default settings in the main window? I usually launch to 100k for example, but the default is 80k. I already find it a little tiresome having to re-enter a bunch of numbers as my personal baseline every time I launch a new vessel. A feature request

 

Also, really, please, all you naysayers just turd right off. If you personally see no use for this mod, shut up. Your input has less than zero value. Thank-you.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Rocket Surgeon

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, damerell said:

You certainly aren't going to convince me when your argument makes no sense whatsoever, which it doesn't. You draw these silly analogies to physical tools - analogies which aren't valid because in the case of the physical tool the all-in-one tool is heavier or more awkward. I point out facts: you can use MechJeb's Ascent Guidance exactly like Gravity Turn - one button, one window, one piece of functionality.

Ok.. since that analogy doesn't work for you, try this one:

 

(goes to hardware store)

"Hi, I've seen some ads for an awesome new specialised hammer for driving brads. It's supposed to be really well balanced, has some cool features, and I'd like to get one."

"Here sir, why don't you try this finest quality 16oz claw hammer instead. It's much more versatile than that new-fangled thing."

"That's a beauty, alright.. but I only need to drive a bunch of brads in.. that looks far too clumsy for what I want to do."

"But sir, this claw hammer does a fine job of driving brads. And there's no need for several taps, like with a brad-hammer, you just whack 'em once, and they're in! Besides which, you can use it for much more than just nailing brads."

"Yeah, but nice as that claw hammer is, it'd be far too easy to mash my thumb and finger while I hold the brads.. I want the precision and control that brad-hammer would give me. And I don't need to do any other jobs with it. What part of "the right tool for the job" do you not understand?"

 

Happy now?

(and incidentally, MJ doesn't result in launches "exactly like Gravity Turn". GT does a MUCH better job)

 

1 hour ago, Rocket Surgeon said:

Would it be a good idea to have it save some custom default settings in the main window? I usually launch to 100k for example, but the default is 80k. I already find it a little tiresome having to re-enter a bunch of numbers as my personal baseline every time I launch a new vessel. A feature request

Seconded! I made this request to Overengineer1 a long time back, but he didn't seem to see the need.

Edited September 25, 2016 by JAFO
Get Overengineer1's name right!

[mathuin]

I am super excited at seeing this mod back among the living.  I have a request, though.

I am happy that you have a LICENSE file, both in the repository and in the plugin download.  Could you please move it to the plugin's directory?  Unzipping GravityTurn_1.5.zip in my KSP game directory left a LICENSE file in the top level which took me a bit to figure out where it belonged.

I forked the repo in hopes of finding whatever compilation script you used and patching it, but I didn't see one.

I also noticed that you committed the GravityTurn.dll to the repo.  In the future, you might want to not commit generated products since they will be overwritten every time the project is compiled, but that's up to you!

Thank you again for resuscitating one of my favorite addons.  Now if only someone can get ProbeControlRoom back off the dustbin of advancing versions...

[damerell]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

(and incidentally, MJ doesn't result in launches "exactly like Gravity Turn". GT does a MUCH better job)

Something I said some time ago. That's the reason to use Gravity Turn; it's better. Not this silly idea that MechJeb hurts you by having functions you don't use.

[DStaal]

Reading this thread manages to remind me of this old add:

 

[fourfa]

9 hours ago, damerell said:

you can use MechJeb's Ascent Guidance exactly like Gravity Turn - one button, one window, one piece of functionality.

Unfortunately not true - I'm sure everyone would benefit if MJ could do what GT does.  The main innovation in GT is using automatic dynamic throttle to maintain an arbitrary time to apoapsis (though there are others).  That results in a flight profile that is very close to ideal, and very educational about how non-ideal MJ's profiles are.  Not that it's impossible to get close with MJ - but you will have to spend a lot of time making dozens of runs tweaking its dozens of variables to get close.  Then do it again if you change the design, or change to another ship, or another location.  I have spent a lot of time trying to get MJ to match GT's results; it's not worth the time.

[hab136]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:50 PM, razark said:

So how do I install just the launch feature?

It's not possible, but FYI you can turn off unwanted features so they don't load: http://wiki.mechjeb.com/index.php?title=Manual/Blacklisting_modules

I use GravityTurn for launches and MechJeb for getting around once in orbit (plus info displays instead of KER).  MechJeb's Ascent Guidance has failed me many times, to where I'd have to change Ascent Guidance to use a 80% turn shape and overbuild, or just fly it manually.  GravityTurn handles those same ships with no problem.

Even when both mods work at getting me to space, Gravity Turn does it more efficiently.

The only thing I don't like about GravityTurn is that it's slooooooooow.  That last 50km -> 70km takes forever.  If I'm in a hurry, I'll tweak the initial turn angle from 10 degrees down to 5 degrees, just so I get to space faster.  This loses some efficiency, of course.

On 9/24/2016 at 7:56 AM, DStaal said:

I'd say that Smart Parts is your friend here.  Add a trigger to auto-stage at whatever fuel amount you want.

Yeah Smart Parts is awesome.  I actually turn off auto-staging on GravityTurn/MechJeb and use Smart Parts, because that works even if I decide to fly manually.

There is actually a 1.1.3 version and now 1.2 version, but you have to dig through the thread or go directly to the github: https://github.com/linuxgurugamer/KerbalSmartParts/releases

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, hab136 said:

The only thing I don't like about GravityTurn is that it's slooooooooow.  That last 50km -> 70km takes forever.  If I'm in a hurry, I'll tweak the initial turn angle from 10 degrees down to 5 degrees, just so I get to space faster.  This loses some efficiency, of course.

That's what physical time warp is for.. especially now that 1.2 handles it better. 4x will get you out of the atmosphere fairly quickly.

Edited September 25, 2016 by JAFO

[Nothalogh]

10 hours ago, fourfa said:

Unfortunately not true - I'm sure everyone would benefit if MJ could do what GT does.  The main innovation in GT is using automatic dynamic throttle to maintain an arbitrary time to apoapsis (though there are others).  That results in a flight profile that is very close to ideal, and very educational about how non-ideal MJ's profiles are.  Not that it's impossible to get close with MJ - but you will have to spend a lot of time making dozens of runs tweaking its dozens of variables to get close.  Then do it again if you change the design, or change to another ship, or another location.  I have spent a lot of time trying to get MJ to match GT's results; it's not worth the time.

Bingo, MJ defines an ascent course, Gravity Turn defines ascent constraints and adapts dynamically

[damerell]

17 hours ago, fourfa said:

Unfortunately not true - I'm sure everyone would benefit if MJ could do what GT does.  The main innovation in GT is using automatic dynamic throttle to maintain an arbitrary time to apoapsis (though there are others).

Context is a valuable thing. I said that in response to the silly idea that MechJeb's extra features are somehow a downside. I already said more than once that Gravity Turn does it _better_.

[AndyMt]

On 25.9.2016 at 2:30 AM, Rocket Surgeon said:

Would it be a good idea to have it save some custom default settings in the main window? I usually launch to 100k for example, but the default is 80k. I already find it a little tiresome having to re-enter a bunch of numbers as my personal baseline every time I launch a new vessel. A feature request

That is definitely one of the next things I'll implement. I'm thinking about a "lock" toggle behind each parameter. Press it and it won't overwrite that parameter and use the last one - stored somewhere...

 

On 25.9.2016 at 5:13 AM, mathuin said:

I am super excited at seeing this mod back among the living.  I have a request, though.

I am happy that you have a LICENSE file, both in the repository and in the plugin download.  Could you please move it to the plugin's directory?  Unzipping GravityTurn_1.5.zip in my KSP game directory left a LICENSE file in the top level which took me a bit to figure out where it belonged.

I forked the repo in hopes of finding whatever compilation script you used and patching it, but I didn't see one.

I also noticed that you committed the GravityTurn.dll to the repo.  In the future, you might want to not commit generated products since they will be overwritten every time the project is compiled, but that's up to you!

Thank you again for resuscitating one of my favorite addons.  Now if only someone can get ProbeControlRoom back off the dustbin of advancing versions...

Thanks for the input - I thought I've excluded the dll, but I'm using this Visual Studio Git plugin for the first time, I should have checked...

And of course I'll move the license file. The "compilation script" is a post build step in the VS project configuration.

 

On 24.9.2016 at 5:12 AM, StevieC said:

One feature I'd like to see in GravityTurn is a function to make it shut off the first stage's engine(s) and trigger stage-sep automatically with some fuel still left in that first-stage, so that when either StageRecovery or FMRS is installed, the first-stage will have enough delta-V left to make a propulsive landing. In the case of FMRS, perhaps even enough for a SpaceX style RTLS or ASDS recovery.

That's an excellent idea! Should be reasonable easy to implement: deltaV calculation exists already. So some additional parameter on the UI and then staging when dV value is reached. So that will be number 2 on the list.

Number 3 will be optional "physics time warp to apoapsis".

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, AndyMt said:

Number 3 will be optional "physics time warp to apoapsis".

Hmm.. if possible, make that "physics time warp to a couple of minutes before apoapsis".. while GT makes for short circularisation burns, it's still nice to have a little time to set them up.

Suggestion for when other, more important features are finished: UI scaling.

[hab136]

On 9/25/2016 at 1:50 PM, JAFO said:

That's what physical time warp is for.. especially now that 1.2 handles it better. 4x will get you out of the atmosphere fairly quickly.

If I'm sitting there waiting for it, sure, but since it's normally so slow anyways what I usually do is press launch, wait 30 seconds to verify the first stage made it off ok, then go stretch my legs for 10 minutes.

[DStaal]

(I typically start physical time warp as soon as it starts the gravity turn...)

A couple of feature requests/bugs if people are looking at them:

• Could the colors for the ascent map get changed?  Dark purple on black isn't very easy to see...  (In fact, I've rarely looked at the ascent map because as far as I can ever see it's a short blue line fading into a big black expanse of nothingness.)
• Currently GravityTurn appears to stage past the current stage just a bit, if it doesn't see anything that would affect the thrust.  This can get problematic, especially with lifters that have non-thrust final stages designed to happen in orbit.  (Examples I've had recently: A final stage that was supposed to never activate, holding some radial monoprop engines (combo RCS/engines - I was using them for the RCS) and a Hanger Fairing from the Hanger mod (which is designed to stage to release one or more ships).  The Hanger Fairing reports itself as a side decoupler to staging, not as a fairing, from what I can tell.)  I'm not sure how fixing this would affect radial boosters, which is what I assume it's trying to stage, but at the very least would it be possible to not stage further automatically if there are no more engine stages?

[Superfluous J]

13 minutes ago, DStaal said:

would it be possible to not stage further automatically if there are no more engine stages?

Set the staging limit. It's that radial button, and then if you go into settings, you can set what stage to limit it at.

While we're making requests, that makes no sense to me. The stage limit should not be a "setting" it should be right next to that radial button.

[DStaal]

47 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Set the staging limit. It's that radial button, and then if you go into settings, you can set what stage to limit it at.

I hadn't even remembered it was there.  Thanks. 

[StevieC]

Another feature that would be a godsend: Select another vessel as a target, and you're automatically set up to launch at the appropriate time, heading, and other parameters for a direct-ascent rendezvous with the target craft, at which point docking will be relatively easy. (direct-ascent rendezvous saves me so much fuel)

Edited September 27, 2016 by StevieC

[steve_v]

Quick FYI: GravityTurn 1.5 appears to be making large ammounts of garbage in 1.2.1540... to the tune of 40MB/s+. This induces much lag.
Nothing conerning in the log (exception-free, no noise from GravityTurn).
Screenies (same save, same craft, -/+ GravityTurn), note memgraph "last" value:

Can repro reliably (and grab logs etc. if you want them), GT is the only requirement to see a ~40MB/s increase in heap allocations.