Deep space propulsion using spring force and kinetic energy

[NFUN]

Magnets are magic. This is a proven fact.

Edited September 26, 2016 by NFUN

[jwenting]

On 24-9-2016 at 6:06 PM, steve_v said:

Indeed, complete with some standard crackpot argument markers. In no particular order:

You forgot the standard appeal to "big industry and government are suppressing this because they don't want people to have free energy/travel meme.

[HebaruSan]

22 hours ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

In this sketch there is a GUN SYSTEM as a propellant chamber and we are using IRON BALLS as a propellant.

Your description of the device did not include any of the words "gun" or "iron" or "ball." Perhaps you should go back and correct this oversight. There is an Edit option that can be used to modify the contents of the main post.

[mikegarrison]

Dark Matter is made up of handwavium, IMO.

Light behaved in a certain way (wavelike), but waves needed a medium. So the otherwise undetectable luminiferous aether was that medium. Until we finally got a better answer.

I see Dark Matter as being the luminiferous aether of the late 20th century. The universe behaves in a certain way, and the only explanation we can come up with is that there must be a lot of extra matter that we can't detect. I would not be surprised at all if someone eventually came up with a testable explanation that did not require any dark matter. (On the other hand, if Dark Matter is directly found through some equivalent of the Michelson–Morley test, that wouldn't be unthinkable either.)

[Diche Bach]

3 minutes ago, mikegarrison said:

Dark Matter is made up of handwavium, IMO.

Light behaved in a certain way (wavelike), but waves needed a medium. So the otherwise undetectable luminiferous aether was that medium. Until we finally got a better answer.

I see Dark Matter as being the luminiferous aether of the late 20th century. The universe behaves in a certain way, and the only explanation we can come up with is that there must be a lot of extra matter that we can't detect. I would not be surprised at all if someone eventually came up with a testable explanation that did not require any dark matter. (On the other hand, if Dark Matter is directly found through some equivalent of the Michelson–Morley test, that wouldn't be unthinkable either.)

Well, my understanding is: the added up their estimates of the mass for the stuff they can see, and calculated what the stuff they can see should look like (how should it be distributed how should it be moving in situations where it is in rotating disks, etc) and : does not compute.

In sum, there is not enough matter detectable by any method we presently have (except for gravity lensing, which still is only 'indicative' of dark mater) to account for how galaxies hang together, the speed at which objects revolve around galactic centers given differential radii from the center, etc. Basically, the universe behaves as if there is more gravity than their estimates suggest there should be based simply on visible matter. "Dark" normal matter apparently cannot possible account for either, without the whole milky way being populated with some ridiculous number of brown dwarfs or similarly massive but not emissive objects.

Basically: observable matter cannot explain the apprent gravity of the observable universe, but other than these observations about the gravitational anomaly of the universe (and the gamma ray signal Dr. Hooper and others are reporting to consider as the result of dark-matter annihilation) there is as yet no known way to "detect" or observe "dark matter" and from a strictly technical standpoint it does not exist, or rather, it has yet to be established empirically as existing. It is effectively at this stage, an hypothetical form of matter/energy/interdimesional-thingamajig which they hope they will eventually be able to pin down through empirical observation and measurement, but which nonetheless at this point is playing the role of a deus ex machina. Without that "X variable" pretty much everything else in physics (well the gravity part anyway) would have to be rethought, and since all that stuff seems to work so well (at least at the scale of of things which we find easy to observe given our time frame and scale or reference, then accepting a (hopefully temporary) deus X explanation is a necessary evil.

Or you could call it 'arm waving.' I think that implies that they not only don't know what they are talking about, but they are trying to suggest they do and avoid actually striving to know what they are talking about and/or that they are a bit crazy. None of which is a fair assessment of the many brilliant people who are now "on the dark matter" bandwagon.

None of this has anything to do with the poorly informed propulsion model of the OP, and it doesn't even address the "conservation of energy" issue--dark energy is a better candidate for 'exception' to that rule I think, but then it seems to me dark matter and dark energy must be integral related somehow.

[Kryten]

Dark Matter is pretty hard to explain away as handwaving, because it's not just extra mass at certain scales, as far as we can tell it really does act like independent matter. We've got galaxies with different apparent distributions of dark matter, ones that seem to be made almost entirely of dark matter, and instances of colliding galaxy clusters like the bullet cluster where  dark matter content has been almost unaffected by the collision, leaving mass distribution skewed.

[mikegarrison]

35 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Dark Matter is pretty hard to explain away as handwaving, because it's not just extra mass at certain scales, as far as we can tell it really does act like independent matter. We've got galaxies with different apparent distributions of dark matter, ones that seem to be made almost entirely of dark matter, and instances of colliding galaxy clusters like the bullet cluster where  dark matter content has been almost unaffected by the collision, leaving mass distribution skewed.

No, we have galaxies who behave as if they have a lot of matter we can't detect. That might be because they really do have a lot of matter we can't detect. Oooooor ... it might be because we don't yet understand something crucial about the behavior of galaxies.

We won't really know until we can either detect the dark matter or we come up with some tests that can definitively prove it doesn't exist.

[lajoswinkler]

On 24.09.2016. at 5:00 PM, Nibb31 said:

Guys, this gentleman has been posting his perpetual-motion devices all over the Internet for ages. He's been told by pretty much everyone about the laws of conservation of momentum, but he just won't listen. It's a lost cause.

Exactly, he even did it on this forum before. After people tell him why it won't work, he hibernates (or trolls on another forum) and then comes back.

 

On 24.09.2016. at 5:47 PM, Robotengineer said:

This is just troll physics. Free-energy people are the flat-earthers of mechanisms and machines. 

Exactly. It's a waste of time and effort to explain things to them. They're called believers. Flatearthers, creationists, crystal healers, antivactionists, homeopathy guzzlers, Mary/Allah/whatever in a toast/mountain/cloud/wood/oilspills/... sighters, etc.

They've already chosen and they cherrypick things that support them, and because there's so little, if any, of such things, they make things up.

 

It all falls apart when you shine logic and evidence onto it, but first they come with conspiracy theories.

Edited September 26, 2016 by lajoswinkler

[K^2]

2 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

Well, my understanding is: the added up their estimates of the mass for the stuff they can see, and calculated what the stuff they can see should look like (how should it be distributed how should it be moving in situations where it is in rotating disks, etc) and : does not compute.

Correct. However, observations on gravitational lensing and rotation speed agree. Which means that while luminous matter does not add up to the total masses of galaxies we've observed, whatever adds to it still behaves like normal matter. At least, in all of the ways that are relevant to discussion of gravity. This means that we are either missing something in our models of star systems (e.g. MACHO hypothesis) or there are particles we have not discovered that contribute to the mass (e.g. WIMP hypothesis - aren't scientists great at naming things?).

What this tells me is that while we are definitely lacking some information about dark matter, there is no indication that it behaves in any way differently from ordinary matter. Again, with respect to gravity. So we're completely in the clear with General Relativity (which is the branch of Field Theory containing conservation laws) and might or might not be missing some matter fields in the Quantum Field Theory. At the worst, there are a few particles that aren't part of the Standard Model yet, and the underlying physics is intact. Naturally, I can't insist on this as a certainty, but there is zero indication of the opposite from experimental data.

Dark Energy is more interesting. It's still in the clear with General Relativity, which is why I insist that it still gives us no reason to suspect any problems with conservation laws, but it definitely points to us missing something in Quantum Field Theory. Still, as of yet, there is no reason to suspect that it's something absolutely fundamental which would make us question the principles that go into Field Theory. Just the Standard Model specifically. And that still leaves conservation laws way, way in the clear.

Honestly, though, neither makes me as uncomfortable as the largest error in physics, and even that seems to stem either form Standard Model, or our understanding of divergences in QFT. Either way, still no reason to suspect any problems with underlying theory.

[Sereneti]

There are a possible way to add momentum without Working mass*.

Gravitional waves.
You use the "whole universe" as working mass.

(* without the fact that we dont have a methode to create gravitional waves)

[Diche Bach]

. . .  okay, this rabbit hole is too deep for me . . . I'm heading back to the surface 

[shynung]

9 hours ago, Sereneti said:

There are a possible way to add momentum without Working mass*.

Gravitional waves.
You use the "whole universe" as working mass.

(* without the fact that we dont have a methode to create gravitional waves)

IIRC, gravitational waves don't carry momentum. So even if we can make artificial gravitational waves, we can't use it for thrust.

The only possible way to add momentum without propellant in vacuum is a photon drive. It's pretty power hungry, at 300 MW / N of thrust, so TWR will not be great.

[KSK]

39 minutes ago, shynung said:

IIRC, gravitational waves don't carry momentum. So even if we can make artificial gravitational waves, we can't use it for thrust.

The only possible way to add momentum without propellant in vacuum is a photon drive. It's pretty power hungry, at 300 MW / N of thrust, so TWR will not be great.

Oh I dunno. The thrust isn't great - I'll give you that. The drive itself though is pretty light, so surely that will help...?

I'll get my coat.

[magnemoe]

51 minutes ago, shynung said:

IIRC, gravitational waves don't carry momentum. So even if we can make artificial gravitational waves, we can't use it for thrust.

The only possible way to add momentum without propellant in vacuum is a photon drive. It's pretty power hungry, at 300 MW / N of thrust, so TWR will not be great.

Solar sails including laser pumped, interaction with magnetic fields or solar wind. is more relevant. 

[Deddly]

Maybe some of you would like to start a seperate thread for alternative propulsion in general. Let's try and keep this one on topic.

[Vanamonde]

A few posts have been trimmed from this thread because: 

Quote

Maybe some of you would like to start a seperate thread for alternative propulsion in general. Let's try and keep this one on topic. 

 

[vikram_gupta11]

On 9/24/2016 at 11:15 PM, sgt_flyer said:

'Catching' those balls with electromagnets is going to cancel the momentum - because your magnetic field comes from the ship. The ship magnets will 'attract' it towards the balls at the same time the balls are attracted towards it. You could put a metal plate for catching those balls, it would have the same effect. 

Take one magnet and an iron piece, and move them closer to each other - both will want to move closer to each other.

magnetism isn't magical  momentum conservation laws applys the same way. If you 'accelerate' a ball then slow it down to a stop within the same machine, net momentum = 0. No matter if it's mechanically accelerated and stopped, magnetically, or a combination of both.

 you all are right

 but I have a question that suppose if the iron balls could reduce its velocity  with itself and hit with electromagnet with low velocity then this engine will move or not?

suppose the iron ball is expelling with 5 meter/second speed from Gun system and is hitting the electromagnet or a wall with 2 meter /second velocity then this device should work or not?

If a object is out from a system then it will be not a part of the system. suppose I and you are standing on a roller skating  and there is 10 meter distance between us .I stand on the front part and you stands on the end part.Now I'm throwing a ball with the velocity of 5 meter/ second and in reaction the roller skate will move towards front side with you but ball is still in the air (for a moment untill  you catch it) and its velocity has reduced from 5 to 3 meter /second .when you will catch it, a back force will be create to pull the roller skating  but it will be less than the force was created by me at the timing of throwing the ball towards you. I can collect this ball again from you by using a conveyor belt  system.
in this way this engine will work .This engine is not a closed system .the iron ball is expelling outside from the inside part of this system and reducing its velocity with itself and after with reduced velocity is again entering in this system.
if we try this system on the earth then it will work and if this kind system works on the earth then there is no doubt that it will not work in space.

 further more I would like to inform you that we will use FERROFLUID(magnetic fluid) to reduce the velocity of these Iron balls .These iron balls will be filled up with this magnetic fluid  and at the time of  expelling this fluid will be in solid state but once expelling from the gun system it will convert into liquid form to reduce the velocity of iron balls .In this way this iron ball will reduce its velocity with itself due to ferro liquid.

we can also use another system to reduce the velocity of iron ball upto 0%by using two electromagnets .In this solution suppose iron ball is moving through between two electromagnet  and these two electromagnet will try to attract this iron ball  and this iron ball will be stopped immediately.

there is also an another option to reduce the velocity of this iron ball.
Now my question is  now the velocity of this iron ball is Zero then this engine should move or not  as we are getting thrust of gun system to propel the engine and iron ball is in 0 velocity and the force has been canceled  to stop this iron ball due to both electromagnet  .

Please explain your answer and this is last time.
i shall be very grateful to you.

 

[K^2]

On 9/26/2016 at 0:57 AM, Sereneti said:

There are a possible way to add momentum without Working mass*.

Gravitional waves.
You use the "whole universe" as working mass.

(* without the fact that we dont have a methode to create gravitional waves)

Gravitational waves work exactly the same way as photon drive for propulsion. They also follow the relation E = pc. And because in these quantities, E of the craft actually contributes to the mass, while radiation itself has no mass, you still have to expend mass to propel yourself. The most efficient method being consuming matter and anti-matter. Whether you use the energy to produce gamma radiation or gravitational wave is absolutely irrelevant. You get the same thrust.

This is because the conservation laws apply to absolutely all forms of propulsion, or indeed, interaction in general. If you take a system that's uniform in spatial dimension, such as vastness of empty space, linear momentum is conserved. To accelerate a body, you must expel something with opposite momentum, which, in turn, requires craft to consume mass one way or another. It's a fundamental problem with all forms of propulsion, including OP's proposal.

This does break down if you break down the symmetry. If you are orbiting a planet, there are tricks you can pull. But you need to be working with the scale comparable to scale of the problem. Various forms of tether propulsion rely on this. Which is why the test a propulsion method must pass is whether or not it can work in empty space. If it is, it must expend reaction mass or equivalent in radiation. No exceptions.

[peadar1987]

38 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

 you all are right

 but I have a question that suppose if the iron balls could reduce its velocity  with itself and hit with electromagnet with low velocity then this engine will move or not?

suppose the iron ball is expelling with 5 meter/second speed from Gun system and is hitting the electromagnet or a wall with 2 meter /second velocity then this device should work or not?

If a object is out from a system then it will be not a part of the system. suppose I and you are standing on a roller skating  and there is 10 meter distance between us .I stand on the front part and you stands on the end part.Now I'm throwing a ball with the velocity of 5 meter/ second and in reaction the roller skate will move towards front side with you but ball is still in the air (for a moment untill  you catch it) and its velocity has reduced from 5 to 3 meter /second .when you will catch it, a back force will be create to pull the roller skating  but it will be less than the force was created by me at the timing of throwing the ball towards you. I can collect this ball again from you by using a conveyor belt  system.
in this way this engine will work .This engine is not a closed system .the iron ball is expelling outside from the inside part of this system and reducing its velocity with itself and after with reduced velocity is again entering in this system.
if we try this system on the earth then it will work and if this kind system works on the earth then there is no doubt that it will not work in space.

 further more I would like to inform you that we will use FERROFLUID(magnetic fluid) to reduce the velocity of these Iron balls .These iron balls will be filled up with this magnetic fluid  and at the time of  expelling this fluid will be in solid state but once expelling from the gun system it will convert into liquid form to reduce the velocity of iron balls .In this way this iron ball will reduce its velocity with itself due to ferro liquid.

we can also use another system to reduce the velocity of iron ball upto 0%by using two electromagnets .In this solution suppose iron ball is moving through between two electromagnet  and these two electromagnet will try to attract this iron ball  and this iron ball will be stopped immediately.

there is also an another option to reduce the velocity of this iron ball.
Now my question is  now the velocity of this iron ball is Zero then this engine should move or not  as we are getting thrust of gun system to propel the engine and iron ball is in 0 velocity and the force has been canceled  to stop this iron ball due to both electromagnet  .

Please explain your answer and this is last time.
i shall be very grateful to you.

 

Changing the state of the fluid from solid to liquid won't change its velocity.

If anything in the system, such as another electromagnet, tries to slow down the iron ball, it will still apply force on the system.

The iron balls would have to be slowed down by something external to the entire system. If your secondary electromagnets were outside the system, what you have is basically a coilgun. Which is cool, but not much use for deep space travel.

[steve_v]

Okay, I'm bored, I'll taste of the delicious troll-bait once more.

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

ball is still in the air (for a moment untill  you catch it) and its velocity has reduced from 5 to 3 meter /second

Velocity lost to air resistance. Space == no air, therefore invalid analogy.

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

reducing its velocity with itself

No can do, things don't just slow down by themselves. Conservation of energy / momentum means that momentum must go somewhere. Where is it going?

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

we will use FERROFLUID(magnetic fluid) to reduce the velocity of these Iron balls .

Introducing a magic ingredient with a fancy-sounding name does not the rules change.

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

In this way this iron ball will reduce its velocity with itself due to ferro liquid.

Sure, got any math to explain where the missing energy / momentum goes?
If this "ferrofluid" reduces velocity by interacting in any way with the rest of the craft (magnets are not magic either) you're back to shuffling momentum around the engine == no propulsion.

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

In this solution suppose iron ball is moving through between two electromagnet  and these two electromagnet will try to attract this iron ball  and this iron ball will be stopped immediately.

Are these electromagnets attached to the engine? If so, same deal - energy transferred back to the craft, no propulsion. If you could attach them to the universe, maybe this would work.

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

Now my question is  now the velocity of this iron ball is Zero then this engine should move or not  as we are getting thrust of gun system to propel the engine and iron ball is in 0 velocity and the force has been canceled

Sure, stop the propellant without levering against the rest of the engine and we have a winner. So far you have: Springs levering against the engine, and magnets levering against the engine.
"Catch" these balls with anything attached to the craft, and any force it applies to the iron balls will simply be applied to the craft in the opposite direction.
Everything you have proposed cancels the momentum of your propellant by transferring it back to the craft. This simply will not work.

 

52 minutes ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

this is last time.

Thank Dog for that, this is getting repetitive.

Edited September 27, 2016 by steve_v
The case of the missing "V".

[Scotius]

1 hour ago, steve_v said:

reducing its velocity with itself

That is all

[YNM]

6 hours ago, vikram_gupta11 said:

 you all are right

 but I have a question that suppose if the iron balls could reduce its velocity  with itself and hit with electromagnet with low velocity then this engine will move or not?

suppose the iron ball is expelling with 5 meter/second speed from Gun system and is hitting the electromagnet or a wall with 2 meter /second velocity then this device should work or not ?

...

Electromagnet on spacecraft (which at most weighs a few tons) != wall attached to a trillion trillion kilogram bobweight. Not to mention the later isn't going to catch the ball, unless it's soft (and deforms) or the ball breaks (deform), losing energy in return to non-kinetic process.

Edited September 27, 2016 by YNM

[Neil1993]

On 9/27/2016 at 4:13 AM, vikram_gupta11 said:

further more I would like to inform you that we will use FERROFLUID(magnetic fluid) to reduce the velocity of these Iron balls .These iron balls will be filled up with this magnetic fluid  and at the time of  expelling this fluid will be in solid state but once expelling from the gun system it will convert into liquid form to reduce the velocity of iron balls .In this way this iron ball will reduce its velocity with itself due to ferro liquid.

we can also use another system to reduce the velocity of iron ball upto 0%by using two electromagnets .In this solution suppose iron ball is moving through between two electromagnet  and these two electromagnet will try to attract this iron ball  and this iron ball will be stopped immediately.

there is also an another option to reduce the velocity of this iron ball.
Now my question is  now the velocity of this iron ball is Zero then this engine should move or not  as we are getting thrust of gun system to propel the engine and iron ball is in 0 velocity and the force has been canceled  to stop this iron ball due to both electromagnet  .

Please explain your answer and this is last time.
i shall be very grateful to you.

 

It won't move. Let's just gloss over the technical magic of having a ferro-fluid which will change phases on a whim. In fact, it isn't necessary to consider a ferro-fluid at all, given the system you are proposing. I'm not sure if you realized this, but Iron is already ferromagnetic.

Having an electromagnet on the ship is essentially the same as tossing a ball from your left hand to your right. When your ball leaves your left hand (this is your gun system) you gain some momentum. However, when you catch it with your right hand (your electromagnets) The ball imparts the momentum it has gained to you in the opposite direction, thus negating the forward momentum you gained from throwing the ball.

Also, you can't stop anything "Instantly."

I agree with the many previous people who have pointed out that there are only so many ways we can tell you that the laws of conservation of momentum exist. If you are still having trouble understanding that, then I don't know if there is anything we can do.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Neil1993

[TheKosmonaut]

Just your (sometimes) friendly neighborhood moderman letting you know I have cleaned up a couple of posts in this thread. 

[W. Kerman]

The laws of thermodynamics say this doesn't work. It would violate the conservation of energy, and break physics.

And since only the Kraken can do that, and I can't see any cephalopods in the design plans, I dub this as a "interesting but impossible to use" device.

 

~W. Kerman