Is it real?

[hypervelocity]

1 hour ago, p1t1o said:

They could make it hard to spot, they couldnt make it impossible to spot. And stealthing it up would make the mission an order of magnitude more difficult (no EM communications allowed, travel on ions only, very long travel time, huge craft required, making it easier to spot with simpler instruments).

All spacecraft have an issue with heat, any craft will require radiators or heaters or both, and no you cant "radiate away" from an observer, well you can, but only to a certain extent, and with the cold of space as a background, that is as close to "can't" as makes no odds. 

No, it'd be pretty hard to conceal a probe to saturn, let alone a mission of this scale. No point in sending a probe that doesnt communicate back, and signals coming from another planet would be spotted quickly!

If nobody was looking, it might be another issue, but there are too many people interested in the skies.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

 

I am very much aware of the fact there is no stealth in space, my idea was more of the like of the way you start the quoted post - I wouldn't say they could make it "IMPOSSIBLE" to spot, but sure they could conceal it quite a bit - the key factor here is that there needs to be someone looking at the right spot, and that could be avoided in several ways.

[p1t1o]

16 minutes ago, hypervelocity said:

I am very much aware of the fact there is no stealth in space, my idea was more of the like of the way you start the quoted post - I wouldn't say they could make it "IMPOSSIBLE" to spot, but sure they could conceal it quite a bit - the key factor here is that there needs to be someone looking at the right spot, and that could be avoided in several ways.

I think I disagree on how much "quite a bit" is, and would like to emphasise how much harder the mission would be to realise if you put even a modest effort into stealthing it.

If you want the mission to communicate *at all* with Earth, thats it, no stealth at all. Even a laser beam is going to cover the whole of earth at that distance, or a large swathe of it. I dont know what the liklihood of running a completely radio-silent mission would be but I bet its low.

If you want to disguise its IR signature, you are going to have to send a whole heap more mass up there, and the dang thing will still stand out to anyone observing in the IR. Remember this isnt a wargame, we have years to spot it, if it takes a few more hours or a few more days to get good differential images going, makes no difference.

And the mission almost *has* to take the obvious route, otherwise you will multiply the dV requirements enormously, requiring an enormous ship which would be even easier to spot, and even then its still going to arrive at Saturn, one of the most studied bodies in the solar system. Its not that people need to be looking in the right place - they already are.

What Im getting at is even if they had huge resources and went all out for stealth, it might make it maybe 10% harder to detect. And where are all these huge heavy-lift rockets taking off from Russia going anyway? People tend to be quite interested in unannounced large rockets taking off from Russia

Edited January 12, 2017 by p1t1o

[DerekL1963]

3 hours ago, hypervelocity said:

I am very much aware of the fact there is no stealth in space, my idea was more of the like of the way you start the quoted post - I wouldn't say they could make it "IMPOSSIBLE" to spot, but sure they could conceal it quite a bit - the key factor here is that there needs to be someone looking at the right spot, and that could be avoided in several ways.

No, you can't avoid someone looking at the right spot - because people are watching practically the entire globe looking for missile launches.  Not to mention we (the US) have a radar system constantly tracking pretty much everything in orbit.  (And that's setting aside the very significant numbers of amatuer astronomers and sattelite watchers.)

Seriously, y'all are way off base here.  You're concentrating on concealing the trans-Saturn cruise and orbital operations at Saturn, and missing that it's pretty much impossible to even get to and operate in LEO without getting noticed.

[Kartoffelkuchen]

Is this...for real? A 4 page discussion about that video? LOL

Of course it is real! What do you even need to discuss there?

[Gaarst]

8 minutes ago, Kartoffelkuchen said:

Is this...for real? A 4 page discussion about that video? LOL

Of course it is real! What do you even need to discuss there?

I know right?

Stupid Americans think they went to the Moon with their joke rockets, but deny Great Mother Russia's achievements 

[KAL 9000]

To assemble this ship in LEO without exposing the mission would take dozens of secret launches... 

We would be picking up artificial radio signals from Saturn besides Cassini's... 

It's fake.

[Exploro]

On 1/9/2017 at 10:20 AM, Darnok said:

If US military wouldn't tell anyone about dropping two nukes on Japan you wouldn't know about this
 

That's a lousy example. Even had the US made no announcement after the attacks; the fact is the Japanese were aware of approach of US aircraft leading up to both attacks. In fact in the case of the bombing of Nagasaki; the Japanese had attempted to engage the three US bombers assigned to that mission after three unsuccessful runs on Kokura; the primary target of the Aug. 9th bombing. Therefore even had the US said nothing it would not have taken a genius to determine that US aircraft had initiated both attacks.

[Tex_NL]

11 hours ago, Exploro said:

That's a lousy example. Even had the US made no announcement after the attacks; the fact is the Japanese were aware of approach of US aircraft leading up to both attacks. In fact in the case of the bombing of Nagasaki; the Japanese had attempted to engage the three US bombers assigned to that mission after three unsuccessful runs on Kokura; the primary target of the Aug. 9th bombing. Therefore even had the US said nothing it would not have taken a genius to determine that US aircraft had initiated both attacks.

Kokura was spared not because the bomber was scared off. Kokura got lucky because of the weather. The bomber crew was unable to visually confirm the target due to clouds and diverted to their secondary target Nagasaki.

[Exploro]

9 hours ago, Tex_NL said:

Kokura was spared not because the bomber was scared off. Kokura got lucky because of the weather. The bomber crew was unable to visually confirm the target due to clouds and diverted to their secondary target Nagasaki.

Yes. That is true. Why the bombers diverted was not necessarily the point. My point to Darnok was that in a scenario where US forces did not announce news of the attacks; the world would still learn it was the US who had delivered the bombs as it was the only one of the Allies present in the skies at the time of the attacks.

Sorry if I derailed the thread.

[razark]

1 hour ago, Exploro said:

Sorry if I derailed the thread.

Don't be.  This thread's been off the rails for a long time.

[Vanamonde]

So let's get it back on, shall we? 

[StupidAndy]

okay, I can debunk this like I can debunk the secret moonbases on the moon

I refer you to my list of space program reasons to tell the public of their major missions

1. PR: so all countries space programs are funded on the ideals of the people and the government, so if they did something like get a person to orbit, they wouldn't keep it secret, they would show the world, they would drop leaflets, they would do everything to tell everyone they got to orbit, so that means, if Russia got to sarnus, we would know BEFORE they took off, this means that if they say they are going to Saturn, they would have to tell the government they need molah.
2. Big frickin moon rockets: so it takes a ton of things to get even to orbit, to ORBIT, this is to Saturn, not only orbit, but further then every nation has ever gone ever. so if there was a big frickin Saturn rocket, we not only would've known to due rule 1, but we have satellites flying over Russia and Baikonur every single day, so the rockets have to travel on those big crawlers for about a day, wait another day, and yadda yadda yadda, and that is for one launch, a mission to Saturn would require hundreds of launchers, so that rules that out
3. Funding: so you have to pay for things right? you have to pay for Kerbal, the same is for NASA and Roscosmos, they have to pay for the materials and parts, and labor, so they would have billions of dollars going to one rocket, so a conspiracy theorist would go through everything to find out a conspiracy, so they would go to the financial reports to find unusual spendings, we would find that again, before the rocket even takes off.
4. social media: do I even have to explain this one? SOMEONE would have spilled the beans again before the rocket took off
5. and this is the final one, the scientific community: they would have to ask the scientific community about things like "what happens to radiation far away from the sun" or "where are important places to visit at Saturn" stuff like that

another thing is that only the US has been to Saturn, so Russia knows little to nothing on getting or things at Saturn.

yeah, the reason I have this list is everyone at my school are idiots who think there "are secret bases on the moon!" and "the government is trying to kill us!"

yeah, I busted all of them, yet the only facts they listen to, aren't facts, the only people they listen to are people who cant DRAW a useable rocket to save their lives...please get me out of here

the only thing I have to look forward to is that my future high school has a class with Kerbal in it...  GET ME OUT OF HERE NOW!!!!

[munlander1]

48 minutes ago, StupidAndy said:

yeah, the reason I have this list is everyone at my school are idiots who think there "are secret bases on the moon!" and "the government is trying to kill us!"

Yeah what a bunch of conspirators. We all know the bases are on Mars and the government is not trying to kill us. Contrails are full of mind altering chemicals!

50 minutes ago, StupidAndy said:

future high school has a class with Kerbal in it...

A class with kerbal in it? What's the name of this class? I wish my school could do something like this! 

[lajoswinkler]

Anyone who thinks this is real is an ignorant, especially for astronomy. These scammers used a near infrared (falsely colored) photo of Titan. You really think Titan looks like that? Pathetic.