[1.6.X] Surface Experiment Pack - Deployable science for KIS/KAS! (v2.7 - 13/Jan/19)

[Vaga]

2 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

I'm not MIA, I've just sort of given up on trying to fix it since I spent years trying to figure out why this mod keeps breaking, and despite finding several possible causes and correcting them, this keeps happening. I stopped enjoying working on SEP since all it does is generate issues that are beyond my ability to solve.

But, yes if you attach to those ugly concrete bases it will work fine. I'd like to note that there is basically nothing different between those bases and the SEP experiments (ie the colliders, attach points, etc).

I don't think these errors are anything to do with your mod.  KAS, Pathfinder and other mods have had the same problem and it all has to do the Physics loading and the parts being pushed under ground or making them bounce off into space.

This seems to be a limitation of Unity engine or KSP and not your great mod.  

 

I know Pathfinder is adding a way to build base platforms. This might be what is needed to solve the issues with physics load and stuff sinking into the ground or bouncing.

Another idea might be to Do something like the old BoxSat mod.  Make a container that you can insert the experiments into like a server that can have lander legs and attachment points instead of using KAS and all the wire connections.  This will give it a smaller profile and be less prone to the physics load problems. This would be allot more work for you with all the new models though.  

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Vaga

[DMagic]

I've always assumed that KSP just doesn't like having things be affixed to the surface of a planet. I've noticed the floating parts thing a few times, and I think it's new, or worse in KSP 1.4.

I don't think there is anything preventing just attaching the parts to a regular vessel that is landed on the surface. I'm not sure if just plopping down a few structural panels would be any more secure than attaching the parts to the surface, but it might be worth a try.

[JoE Smash]

3 hours ago, DMagic said:

I've always assumed that KSP just doesn't like having things be affixed to the surface of a planet. I've noticed the floating parts thing a few times, and I think it's new, or worse in KSP 1.4.

I don't think there is anything preventing just attaching the parts to a regular vessel that is landed on the surface. I'm not sure if just plopping down a few structural panels would be any more secure than attaching the parts to the surface, but it might be worth a try.

Ok so it's probably some fundamental collision model effect causing this then....

Well as a noob who understands nothing about unity, programming, or mods....I still have some potentially scientific questions that could help....

Is there a way to remove collision from the parts and still make them functional? 

Or is there a way to attach damper functionality to the bases if the parts....i.e. like mini-lander legs.

All the parts seem very light weight wise, so the spring/damper system necessary in the base of the part where the attachment point is should be very minimal..... 

I'm wondering even if this should be a built in effect of anything attached with KAS/KIS. Kinda like auto-struts with advanced tweakables.

That way if any vibration or collision occurs it is absorbed and dissapated, instead of amplified until rapid unplanned disassembly....

 

Basically instead of just increasing the break force of the joints and whatnot via config files, is there a way to add auto struts to the joints with code or some other line in the config file, or treat the surface attachment points as having built in springs/dampers like landing gear. I'm sure this would take the writing of some program like the "Kerbal Joint Reinforcement" mod....to override how the surface attachment nodes for your parts are treated by the game....

 

I don't know enough about anything to figure out how exactly to do any of these things.....but I figure in theory there is a way to do this....

Maybe one of the Devs who also a modder of the game would have some ideas?

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by JoE Smash

[DMagic]

1 hour ago, JoE Smash said:

Is there a way to remove collision from the parts and still make them functional? 

No. Colliders are what allow you to click on the part and are used when attaching the part to anything else. Without them the game has no way of knowing when the mouse is over the part, so you can't select it or do anything with it. And colliders are used by stock KSP, and I assume KIS when you want to attach the part to anything other than a connection node.

I think the problem lies in attaching the part to terrain of a planet. The terrain is not like any other physical surface in the game (including launchpads and runways, which are not physically part of the terrain). It uses a different type of collider, and is procedurally generated based on the planet's height map, the terrain detail settings, how close you are to the surface, and probably a bunch of other things.

So it's not terribly surprising that there are problems that arise when you have a collider attached to the terrain surface. The physics engine tends to freak out when colliders are forced together in some way (that is how some of the wackier bugs that streamers sometimes find work; basically breaking the physics system) and I think KSP (and maybe KIS) has many systems that directly involve trying to prevent vessels and parts from freaking out when you load something on the surface.

[JoE Smash]

59 minutes ago, DMagic said:

No. Colliders are what allow you to click on the part and are used when attaching the part to anything else. Without them the game has no way of knowing when the mouse is over the part, so you can't select it or do anything with it. And colliders are used by stock KSP, and I assume KIS when you want to attach the part to anything other than a connection node.

I think the problem lies in attaching the part to terrain of a planet. The terrain is not like any other physical surface in the game (including launchpads and runways, which are not physically part of the terrain). It uses a different type of collider, and is procedurally generated based on the planet's height map, the terrain detail settings, how close you are to the surface, and probably a bunch of other things.

So it's not terribly surprising that there are problems that arise when you have a collider attached to the terrain surface. The physics engine tends to freak out when colliders are forced together in some way (that is how some of the wackier bugs that streamers sometimes find work; basically breaking the physics system) and I think KSP (and maybe KIS) has many systems that directly involve trying to prevent vessels and parts from freaking out when you load something on the surface.

Well with Kerbal Konstructs and Kerbin Side you can add a launch pad or a number of other things onto the terrain and they don't tend to vibrate or float away....so is it a mass thing? Or a size thing? Or is it a KIS thing the way the attachment is generated.

With Kerbal Konstructs you are not "attaching" the structure to the terrain I don't think. Yet the objects stay where you put them....and they don't freak out every time the scene is loaded.

[Brigadier]

I use WorldStabilizer but that hasn't seemed to help me.  I've heard of and seen planetary/moon bases doing the funky chicken and exploding.  Some have found relief with WS; don't know why.

Just my 5 cents worth (Canada doesn't have the penny anymore)

[r1chardj0n3s]

FWIW the USI base building has options for a bunch of base parts to "anchor" to the world which seems to make them *very* stable. I don't know what they do under the hood.

[canisin]

Hello all,

I have previously reported a problem about not being able to see the results of the experiments when i transmit science from a central station. So far I have been able to find a solution by adding a science container to the central station and collecting all experiment results into it so that I can review them and transmit them. For me this has been a good solution so I wanted to share it. Here is the patch that adds a science container to the central station.

@PART[SEP_CentralStation]:FINAL
{
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleScienceContainer

        canBeTransferredToInVessel = True
        canTransferInVessel = True
        showStatus = True
    }
}

 

[DMagic]

@canisin How are you trying to check the results? You need an EVA Kerbal to do most interactions with the instruments.

@JoE Smash Kerbin Side uses a different system to place objects on the surface. It is the same as that used for all of the stock structures, KSC, launchpad, anomalies, etc... Those aren't the same as parts.

I'm sure that there are ways of making sure that parts attached to the surface are more secure, but that is something that would be done by KIS.

[canisin]

1 hour ago, DMagic said:

@canisin How are you trying to check the results? You need an EVA Kerbal to do most interactions with the instruments.

I am setting up the instruments with a Kerbal, leaving them on the planet, returning to Kerbin, and then once the experiments are completing I am switching to the central station and sending back the results. But when I do, it just starts transmitting and I never get to see the results  So that's why I added the science container and use the method that I have described earlier.

[DMagic]

@canisin That's the expected behavior. Like I said, they are meant to be operated by a Kerbal.

[canisin]

10 minutes ago, DMagic said:

@canisin That's the expected behavior. Like I said, they are meant to be operated by a Kerbal.

Oh is it? I had always thought the Kerbal's would be meant to set them up and then leave them there

[Michel Bartolone]

@Canisin @DMagic I'm with Canisin on this...I thought it was a set it up and leave it since some of the experiments take days to complete. And if you go to the SEP control at the KSC screen, I think you can collect the data remotely from Kerbin. Perhaps the issue is if you can create a radio link from the SEP station to the KSC. I have a constellation of 5 identical relay sats that I usually deploy around any planet I'm exploring so I can transmit all of the time, since at least one sat is above the horizon most of the time. Even on the Mun, if you want to put something in a location that doesn't have line of site to KSC or a relay, you can't transmit the data.

[Michel Bartolone]

BTW, I was doing a clean install of my mods today and SEP seems to have fallen off CKAN.

 

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Michel Bartolone said:

BTW, I was doing a clean install of my mods today and SEP seems to have fallen off CKAN.

 

Just guessing, that you have a 1.4.4 install.

You need to tell CKAN to allow all 1.4 compatible mods.  It in the setting menu.

[Mattasmack]

Am I right in thinking that this mod requires the old KAS (0.6) rather than the new KAS 1.0?  I was playing with only the latter installed and wasn't able to connect any SEP experiments to the central station; after I installed the old KAS as well I was able to do so.  (I also have a bajillion other mods installed, so I thought I'd ask since it could easily be a conflict somewhere else that caused the behavior.)  My understanding is that the old, 0.6 KAS is going to go away soon when the new version is officially released shortly.

[DMagic]

@Mattasmack It currently only works with KAS 0.6. When that is replaced by KAS 1.0, then this will have to transition.

It would help if someone who knows the new system could explain how the equivalent functions could be performed (connecting multiple parts into one vessel on the surface using some type of hose/pipe).

[Sokol_323]

I have now is a KAS 0.6 and KAS 1.0 and everything is working correctly. All instruments are connected to the central station SEP without problems.

[Mattasmack]

On 8/5/2018 at 6:12 PM, DMagic said:

@Mattasmack It currently only works with KAS 0.6. When that is replaced by KAS 1.0, then this will have to transition.

It would help if someone who knows the new system could explain how the equivalent functions could be performed (connecting multiple parts into one vessel on the surface using some type of hose/pipe).

Ah, working as intended in my save then.  Thanks!

[KEO0323]

@canisin @DMagic  In v1.3.1, I was able to click on the Central Station and manually transmit experiment results without a Kerbal similar to a probe core. After a tech upgrade it would transmit automatically which helped with forgetting due to long wait times. I always assumed the intent of this mod was to replicate the Apollo ASEP experiments which were set up, left and transmitted data back to earth after the astronauts return. (The real life Retroreflector is still operational).  I lost this feature on my latest play through and assumed I was having a conflict with another mode or with the latest KSP update. Based on the above discussions I guess I'm wondering if this feature was removed? Not my place to tell anyone how to do their business if its a change; it was just a cool immersion feature. 

[Luna Cat]

I'm running KSP 1.4.5, with SEP 2.6

In the output log:

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
  at SEPScience.SEP_UI.Windows.SEP_AppLauncher.OnDestroy () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 .
 .
(Filename:  Line: -1).

In the KSP log:

[EXC 18:40:29.427] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
        SEPScience.SEP_UI.Windows.SEP_AppLauncher.OnDestroy ().

I can post full logs on a Google Drive, if needed.

These were the only exceptions. I started up an existing saved game, and immediately went into the VAB. The screen started blinking, and the game hung.

[eberkain]

I get some occasional exceptions in my log too, but the mod seems to work perfectly in 1.4.5

[Luna Cat]

I've had a couple of explosions, but I'm sure it's not a problem with the mod, it's KSP. Restoring from a quick-save solved the explosion, and it did not repeat under similar circumstances. I was in a rover approaching a deployed SEP set on the Mun. In the distance, the SEP setup appeared to be bouncing up and down as I rolled along. Then it started exploding. After restoring I drove up again a little slower, and nothing happened. KSP has been a little wacky with objects on the ground since 1.0.5, even if they're not attached. I've switched to rovers, and had them bounce up into the air. I'm using the World Stabilizer mod to reduce that problem.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Luna Cat
grammar

[Brigadier]

1 hour ago, Luna Cat said:

I've had a couple of explosions, but I'm sure it's not a problem with the mod, it's KSP. Restoring from a quick-save solved the explosion, and it did not repeat under similar circumstances. I was in a rover approaching a deployed SEP set on the Mun. In the distance, the SEP setup appeared to be bouncing up and down as I rolled along. Then it started exploding. After restoring I drove up again a little slower, and nothing happened. KSP has been a little wacky with objects on the ground since 1.0.5, even if they're not attached. I've switched to rovers, and had them bounce up into the air. I'm using the World Stabilizer mod to reduce that problem.

I'll have to try this approach technique.  I've been wary of spending a lot of time using this mod since my 2nd Kerbin SEP station and a Mun station did the funky chicken, the former on approach, the second on departure.

F5 to the rescue.

[Apaseall]

Hi, here is a log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5sdzcbltobydaoj/saves for LoadingScreenManager.1.output_log.rar?dl=0

Inside can be found this:

Spoiler

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at SEPScience.SEP_UI.Windows.SEP_AppLauncher.OnDestroy () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Now I have posted a lot today. Pasting the same log. I have been asking people to take a look at some outputs in the log file. Most are probably harmless and I have said as much. But I am asking people to try to have a look at the messages, see if they can be fixed, not only because it will resolve what ever caused the messages in the first place but also because i am on some kind of mission today to clean up the log, a bit. A clean log is erm something. Ta.